Artistic statement is a balance between head, heart and hand

[Deltadrummer]

Stan, this isn't about any of that. I always learn a lot from you, and like last night, you are always dead on right. It is about the fact that people don't need to insult and degrade people to get to that point, and YES, many people do PM me about this and YES they are sick of it, and YES they go somewhere else, and YES the forum suffers because of it. and if you are too think headed to see how plain and simple that is, then you need an attitude adjustment as much as Gregg does.

 

[jazzgregg]

Stan, this isn't about any of that. I always learn a lot from you, and like last night, you are always dead on right. It is about the fact that people don't need to insult and degrade people to get to that point, and YES, many people do PM me about this and YES they are sick of it, and YES they go somewhere else, and YES the forum suffers because of it. and if you are too think headed to see how plain and simple that is, then you need an attitude adjustment as much as Gregg does.

Again Ken, Stan is right. If you can't see that, that's unfortunate. Don't think that you are the only one to get PMs regarding certain behaviour. So stop harping on things again and get on with a discussion.


G

 

[Steamer]

Stan, this isn't about any of that. I always learn a lot from you, and like last night, you are always dead on right. It is about the fact that people don't need to insult and degrade people to get to that point, and YES, many people do PM me about this and YES they are sick of it, and YES they go somewhere else, and YES the forum suffers because of it. and if you are too think headed to see how plain and simple that is, then you need an attitude adjustment as much as Gregg does.

Well I can only speak for myself and i'm very clear and upfront with what I have to say as always but others can choose their own delivery of the message. You were wrong and upset a few people. How each individual responds to that is their choice none of which is pretty including "dissing" Elvin to begin with which was worded by you in in highly insulting manner.

Need a reminder ? :

"Listen to the drum solo in Henderson's recording of Inner Urge with Elvin, for example. It arguably isn't very musical, and McCoy Tyner is so lost he doesn't know when to come in. Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head."

 

[Deltadrummer]

Well I can only speak for myself and i'm very clear and upfront with what I have to say as always but others can choose their own delivery of the message. You were wrong and upset a few people. How each individual responds to that is their choice none of which is pretty including "dissing" Elvin to begin with which was worded by you in in highly insulting manner.

Need a reminder ? :

"Listen to the drum solo in Henderson's recording of Inner Urge with Elvin, for example. It arguably isn't very musical, and McCoy Tyner is so lost he doesn't know when to come in. Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head."

"Listen to the drum solo in Henderson's recording of Inner Urge with Elvin, for example. It arguably isn't very musical, and McCoy Tyner is so lost he doesn't know when to come in. Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head.

There was a reason I put that word in there. That is called a subject of debate. Gun rights pro or con. McCoy Tyner 'lost' or 'what is going on.'

 

[Steamer]

"Listen to the drum solo in Henderson's recording of Inner Urge with Elvin, for example. It arguably isn't very musical, and McCoy Tyner is so lost he doesn't know when to come in. Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head.

There was a reason I put that word in there. That is called a subject of debate. Gun rights pro or con. McCoy Tyner 'lost' or 'what is going on.'

We covered that. I supplied you with some further insight to consider and ponder from a jazz players perspective about what you may or may not be hearing during that performance.

My problem is truly with sentence #2 from you Ken:

"Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head"


This is plain DEAD WRONG and is VERY insulting to me {and i'm sure G} in regards to Elvin and some conceptual matters regarding his approach to drumming/music I brought up in this thread you need to learn about and do some homework on. Get it now Ken ?

 

[Deltadrummer]

We covered that. I supplied you with some further insight to consider and ponder from a jazz players perspective about what you may or may not be hearing during that performance.

My problem is truly with sentence #2 from you Ken:

"Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head"


This is plain DEAD WRONG and is VERY insulting to me {and i'm sure G} in regards to Elvin and some conceptual matters regarding his approach to drumming/music I brought up in this thread you need to learn about and do some homework on. Get it now Ken ?

What is this going to go round and round? You don't get it. You don't gang up and insult a member of the forum. Not now, not ever, PERIOD.

 

[Steamer]

What is this going to go round and round? You don't get it. You don't gang up and insult a member of the forum. Not now, not ever, PERIOD.

And you appear not interested in learning anything new and helpful in the process so I give up. You also clearly aren't interested in retracting your highly misguided and illinformed insults directed at Elvin either.

Yes we have a stalemate :{

 

[Deltadrummer]

And you appear not interested in learning anything new and helpful in the process so I give up. You also clearly aren't interested in retracting your highly misguided and illinformed insult directed at Elvin either.

Yes we have a stalemate :{

The Stalemate began when you stopped listening and decided to insult me and say my observation was based on my lack of understanding of Elvin Jones. It was based on my question of why McCoy Tyner comes in early.

Is he lost in the solo?
Is he or Elvin to blame?

These are good questions to ask even if the answer is none of the above. Question are good to ask and people should not be insulted for asking them. And you are probably right that Joe Henderson decided to let the solo settle back into melody after the denouement before bringing the back band in. You see the answer has nothing to do with my knowledge of Elvin Jones playing. It had to do with knowledge about how a man leads a quartet.

 

[Steamer]

The Stalemate began when you stopped listening and decided to insult me and say my observation was based on my lack of understanding of Elvin Jones. It was based on my question of why McCoy Tyner comes in early.

Is he lost in the solo?
Is he or Elvin to blame?

These are good questions to ask even if the answer is none of the above. Question are good to ask and people should not be insulted for asking them. And you are probably right that Joe Henderson decided to let the solo settle back into melody after the denouement before bringing the back band in. You see the answer has nothing to do with my knowledge of Elvin Jones playing. It had to do with knowledge about how a man leads a quartet.

It's about playing jazz music, being a jazz musician and having learned and understood various concept{s} about approaching the music and for me it's still about you thinking Elvin is playing with his hands not his heart and not playing off the melody which you are DEAD WRONG about as we covered but won't admit it or offer a retraction. This is where it will sit with me till I hear different.

 

[jay norem]

Jay, aren't you the guy that flipped out on Ken and told him to stop posting about useless things in threads he knows nothing about?=) G

Yes, I was, I did that, and I was wrong to do so, I think.

 

[Deltadrummer]

It's about playing jazz music, being a jazz musician and having learned and understood various concept{s} about approaching the music and for me it's still about you thinking Elvin is playing with his hands not his heart and not playing off the melody which you are DEAD WRONG about as we covered but won't admit it or offer a retraction. This is where it will sit with me till I hear different.

I said you were right. I said your are always right. What more do you want me to say?

But you are wrong about the way people are treated around here, and it would seem to me that anybody who considers themselves a friend would apologize whether or not one felt he was wrong. But it not about that.

Again, it is about the fact that people do not like what they see, and they pm me about it.

And Jay, it was wrong, and you know that. It's all about having a conversation and learning more about jazz. But all this crap goes down because it was easier to insult me and think me an idiot than to ask, what I meant by what I said and why I said it, which was simply because you read so much about Elvin's solos and comping and how people had a problem with it. I explained why I asked it and the problem I was having, and it is sad that what seems to me to be such s simple lesson in civil discourse is getting lost.

I just want to be treated with respect like everyone else around here, and if you can't do that, don't respond to my posts. Period.

 

[Steamer]

Well I apologize if you feel you've been ganged up on Ken {and my part in it} but I offer no apology for calling you on making some off base comments in my view about Elvin's playing. That needs to be done when it happens from you or others or nothing gets learned in the process and the well worn road to jazz related ignorance continues to rule the day. You unfortunately last night touched a big nerve with me on this that quite shocked me actually and i'm very clear in where the real truth on that matter sits at least for me. Elvin is the reason I decided to play jazz and become a professional jazz drummer at 18 so it gets pretty close to home for me when people diss the contributions to music of the man.

It's just as harsh for me to go online and read these type of comments about Elvin time and time again over many years instead of people doing a little further research on what's really going on regarding his approach to playing music before passing judgement. This applies to any jazz player especially a well acknowledged master of the jazz craft in this case.

 

[Deltadrummer]

It's just as harsh for me to go online and read these type of comments about Elvin time and time again over many years instead of people doing a little further research on what's really going on regarding his approach to playing music before passing judgement. This applies to any jazz player especially a well acknowledged master of the jazz craft in this case.

Why should I do any further research when I got you? The book/video are long OOP by the way. Sorry if the question touched a nerve. I could ahve been more clear up front. One must realize that Billy Cobham was an early influence on my drumming, and the work that he's done over the last forty years is certainly deserving of respect..

 

[Steamer]

Why should I do any further research when I got you? The book/video are long OOP by the way.

Well i'm no living expert on the subject of Elvin noboby is as we are all learning {I hope!} as we go along Ken but i've certainly had a real passion for getting to the meat of the matter that's for sure :}

Good luck finding the Rhasody Film "A Different Drummer. Mines on VHS ordered straight from their office in NYC at the time some 29 years ago at this point :}

 

[Steamer]

Oops another can of worms Ken :] I'm still shaking my head over Billy throwing big rocks at the grave stone of Tony in the latest issue of Jazz Times. Some pretty mean spirited nasty off the target untrue stuff was said. Didn't like the nasty shots he took at Cindy either. Refects poorly on him IMO.

Must be a real unhappy guy at present but the buzz on the street is it showed VERY poorly on the real greatest of what is Billy Cobham. Many of his biggest fans are anything but impressed by what he said. Pretty sad :{

 

[jay norem]

The funny thing about all this, to me, is that it's very likely that Greg, Stan and Ken can all play me under the kit with one hand tied behind their backs!
I got a PM from "The Colonel," and he said that he didn't think much of my drumming. Well, neither do I. From what I understand, he's a pretty bad-ass drummer, and I don't mind him telling me that at all. It's good, every once in awhile, to get knocked down. But it got me thinking that no matter how personally we may take this stuff, it really comes down to what makes us happy, right, and part of all this, this drumming thing, is now interacting with each other on the internet.
I'm happy with what I can do, it's fun, it makes me feel good, and I think I'm good enough on my drum kit to play the music I want to play. And I hope that we all feel that way about what we can do on our drum kits. And since we're all bringing our own stuff here it just seems to make sense to me that we should try to respect the sources of these comments and opinions, and if we can help someone then we should consider it a privilege to do so.
I'm through fighting, man. Well, at least for now!
We all love being drummers, and that's what's important, that's what we all have in common.

 

[Deltadrummer]

Oops another can of worms Ken :] I'm still shaking my head over Billy throwing big rocks at the grave stone of Tony in the latest issue of Jazz Times. Some pretty mean spirited nasty off the target untrue stuff was said. Didn't like the nasty shots he took at Cindy either. Refects poorly on him IMO.

Must be a real unhappy guy at present but the buzz on the street is it showed VERY poorly on the real greatest of what is Billy Cobham. Many of his biggest fans are anything but impressed by what he said. Pretty sad :{

Well, they played him a recording and he didn't like it. He said they weren't listening to each other. It was the only one he didn't like. He had some great things to say about Elvin with Gil Evans, and Paul Motian. He liked his Gretsch drums as a matter of fact. He also liked Osie Johnson. Billy came out of that Ego tradition. I am sure they all had it. I am sure at times it got in the way of the music. Those young'ns all had a lot of talent back then.

 

[MattRitter]

Wow- I'm almost sorry I read this thread. It is really upsetting to see that Ken was treated so harshly for stating his opinion. He was called "ignorant," his knowledge of jazz drumming was belittled, and he was told to apologize for his opinion because it is "wrong." What's going on here?! This is not what this forum is about! Anyone who has interacted with Ken on the forum knows that he is respectful and sincere. Why can't he state an opinion? So he thought Elvin tried to do "too much" in the solo, or he thought the melodic ideas could have been clearer. What is the big deal?! People state opinions like that all the time!

Picture a couple of guys talking about a meal. One of them says "It's delicious." The other says "It's too spicy." Big deal! A fist fight doesn't break out! No one gets called "ignorant"!

Same goes for music. When a bunch of guys sit around talking about a piece of music, you hear things like..."It's awesome"..."It doesn't swing enough"..."It's too darn long"..."It started out good, but then it became sort of cluttered"..."I love it"..."Too much hand, not enough heart"...

We hear these things all the time, don't we? Why is it so criminal that Ken stated an opinion like this? He never said that Elvin was a horrible drummer or something. And even if he did...that would just be his opinion. I've heard people say that Buddy Rich was a horrible drummer. I've heard people say that Neil Peart is a horrible drummer. For every drum legend you can think of, there is someone who doesn't think they are very good. It all depends on the taste of the listener, as well as the specific criteria that is being considered by the listener.

Honestly, I am really saddened by this exchange here. This is not the way to treat someone, and it does nothing to increase respect for jazz music or the drumming of Elvin Jones.

 

[Steamer]

Wow- I'm almost sorry I read this thread. It is really upsetting to see that Ken was treated so harshly for stating his opinion. He was called "ignorant," his knowledge of jazz drumming was belittled, and he was told to apologize for his opinion because it is "wrong." What's going on here?! This is not what this forum is about! Anyone who has interacted with Ken on the forum knows that he is respectful and sincere. Why can't he state an opinion? So he thought Elvin tried to do "too much" in the solo, or he thought the melodic ideas could have been clearer. What is the big deal?! People state opinions like that all the time!

Picture a couple of guys talking about a meal. One of them says "It's delicious." The other says "It's too spicy." Big deal! A fist fight doesn't break out! No one gets called "ignorant"!

Same goes for music. When a bunch of guys sit around talking about a piece of music, you hear things like..."It's awesome"..."It doesn't swing enough"..."It's too darn long"..."It started out good, but then it became sort of cluttered"..."I love it"..."Too much hand, not enough heart"...

We hear these things all the time, don't we? Why is it so criminal that Ken stated an opinion like this? He never said that Elvin was a horrible drummer or something. And even if he did...that would just be his opinion. I've heard people say that Buddy Rich was a horrible drummer. I've heard people say that Neil Peart is a horrible drummer. For every drum legend you can think of, there is someone who doesn't think they are very good. It all depends on the taste of the listener, as well as the specific criteria that is being considered by the listener.

Honestly, I am really saddened by this exchange here. This is not the way to treat someone, and it does nothing to increase respect for jazz music or the drumming of Elvin Jones.

Read post#52 from me it may help you understand why the subjrct needed to be brought to the table with all due respect.

 

[MattRitter]

I am a human being first, and a musician second. As a human being, I am truly sorry to see that Ken was treated in this way. As a musician, I am sorry to see that a discussion of jazz and Elvin Jones was reduced to name-calling. Elvin always seemed like a very warm man. He is probably turning in his grave.