Artistic statement is a balance between head, heart and hand

behindthenotes

Junior Member
Hi Guys

We have posted this as our discussion topic this week but would be keen to hear your thoughts on this:

What you're looking for in any artistic statement is a balance between head, heart and hand. You want the thought, the feeling and the technical means to do it - David Liebman.

This kind of follows on from our discussion last week but puts the focus back on you guys. We would like to hear how you approach balancing these three elements in your own playing.
 
Well, even considering that the guy you're quoting here is someone who I have tremendous admiration for, it hardly seems an unusual or a debateable poition.

To my way of thinking it is 'the circle of lif'e' if you will.

Your imagination and your spirit drive your need for technique, creating the competence to express your thoughts & feelings, and as this competence grows, it in turn becomes the inspiration that feeds more thoughts and ideas.

The more seamless and effortless this circle becomes, the more accomplished the musician becomes, in my view.

I also dont think the process of a truly musical statement is possible without all these elements in their rightful place.

One sees many players focus one just one thing disproportionately, and its is very telling on their music. We've all seen many of them. The cats with the sterile monster chops, and the others trying to say something so deep, that they are unable to express it.

The old cliche' that Music is a Universal language communicated through the body, mind and soul, rings very true.

Thats another way of saying head, heart, and hand.
 
I find that very few musicians can actually come through with this - and I'll say it: "within an improvisational language/vocabular/field"

David Liebman is a "jazz" saxophonist - started with Elvin - moved onto Miles Davis' band and then into his own projects - he's a "jazz" guy - through and through. So I would say that he's talking through a "jazz" perspective.

In other musics - people are able to come up with music with all three of his requirements. Some of those things can be terribly exciting and enjoyable - and I would say that those things are very much in the vein of what I enjoy within those three requirements. Anywhere from classical music to hip-hop mashups - there are constant examples of things I enjoy with those requirements.

But within the jazz context - the enjoyment % goes way way down. Most of that is because people don't actually filter themselves as much as they should. "Oh it's jazz so I can play what I want" "It's freejazz I can play what I want" - those instances don't rely on much of the heart, and such....more of the hand and head (and what's been practiced)


I've become very jaded with the level of jazz improvisers these days. It's been a long long while since I've heard any sort of "surprise" in anyone's improvisations. In the meantime, I've heard lots of surprises in the compositional field...

I wish me-10-years-ago could talk to current-me...
 
I've become very jaded with the level of jazz improvisers these days. It's been a long long while since I've heard any sort of "surprise" in anyone's improvisations. In the meantime, I've heard lots of surprises in the compositional field...

I couldn't agree more. That's why all my real heroes are mostly dead, while this whole viewpoint about how drumming especially has evolved past these older guys continues to confuse me. Past all the over dependence on advancing equipment modifications, I just don't hear it, at least in the playing itself. This doesn't discount the talent of the top level of players today. I'm only talking about the creativity/innovation angle. But it does draw attention to the idea that innovation is often not the main thing anymore, when it was once the only thing.
 
. But it does draw attention to the idea that innovation is often not the main thing anymore, when it was once the only thing.


Exactly. Production is the big thing right now. Have you all heard Girl Talk's "Feed the Animals"? Surprise around every turn while throwing up hip-hop and oldie mash-ups together like that was their purpose. Total surprises!

I don't hear any surprises on most new jazz releases. I hear "Oh yeah I sort of expected that." It's rare that I get really excited - or even better - GOOSEBUMPS! - from newer jazz releases.

(Just for the record - some of my biggest goosebumps - without checking too deeply into the catalogue - come when Coltrane brings in his solo on "Afro Blue" on Live @ Birdland - after McCoy's solo and Elvin hammering away at the cymbal and floor tom - Goodness gracious!!)
 
I liked rap better when it was dissin', Elvis, John Wayne, and Bobby McFerrin. What will happen to tap if Obama becomes president? :)

Innovation drove music throughout most of the twentieth century But today, it is very hard to be innovative or even unique because there is just so much happening, and so much that has been done. .For me, It about creating a musical experience rather than boring the listener out of his skull.Especially when you are spending 50-75 or more than 100 bucks for a ticket.

Anyone can put out a CD these days. There is no more middle man. So the musician can be the middle man, reacting to and developing what he hears around him. I think it is a good place to be.
 
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I don't hear any surprises on most new jazz releases. I hear "Oh yeah I sort of expected that." It's rare that I get really excited - or even better - GOOSEBUMPS! - from newer jazz releases.

I actually agree with this, and those of us for whom jazz is our raison d'être are guilty, I think. Too often I think we're going for sound over content. It's a hard wall to break down, really, without throwing the baby out of with the bathwater.
(Hmmm...how many other cliches can I throw in here?)
But yes, I agree that there are too few surprises in jazz anymore. The "Oh yeah I sort of expected that" statement is apt. Guilty as charged!

Edit: I realize this is off-topic, I just wanted to respond to that statement.
 
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I don't know if your statement is off topic. But I would say that this is something people say about most every genre these days. When was the last time a Broadway musical really said something new, for example?
 
I don't know if your statement is off topic. But I would say that this is something people say about most every genre these days. When was the last time a Broadway musical really said something new, for example?

Well, then, let's bring it back to drumming. Obviously the focus for all of us is to play the very best we can, which involves practicing very technical things. But how many drummers can just play a simple, swinging shuffle beat and really have the head, heart and hands all in there, to the extent that the technique involved isn't even noticable. What you hear when such a drummer plays is heart, pure heart, and it's very moving. To me, this is the magic of drumming, the thing that can't be taught. Whether or not that's art is for someone else to decide.
 
Well, what more is there to say? :)

Getting into tradition, I think that we look back at some of these great for their innovations, and may not be critical of some of there weaknesses. Listen to the drum solo in Henderson's recording of Inner Urge with Elvin, for example. It arguably isn't very musical, and McCoy Tyner is so lost he doesn't know when to come in. Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head.
 
Well, what more is there to say? :)

Getting into tradition, I think that we look back at some of these great for their innovations, and may not be critical of some of there weaknesses. Listen to the drum solo in Henderson's recording of Inner Urge with Elvin, for example. It arguably isn't very musical, and McCoy Tyner is so lost he doesn't know when to come in. Often Elvin was trying to do too much in his solos and the melodic idea was lost: too much hand not enough head.


Not to my ears Ken. You can hear the underlying root of a certain framework of a simplier use of melodic, rhythmic ideas etc... only extended on in a less obvious manner in that Elvin example. One of my favorite albums still to this day. The essential core/musical feeling is always "there" first with Elvin even if it's not so obvious at first. Same with McCoy in a different musical sense.

This is another one of the common misunderstandings about Elvin I always hear. Knowing more about his melodic/poly-time concept works starting from simplier ideas then hearing how he extends on them sheds more light on how to listen to him. Works for me anyways.

Elvin explains this in detail in the film "A Different Drummer" where he starts playing the simple melody of "3 Card Molly" on the snare drum then he extends on it to the max on the whole kit based on his melodic/poly-time concept with the underlying core melodic/rhythmic line of the tune still happening the whole time no matter how "out" it gets. Very illuminating indeed when I first saw {and heard} that when I was 18 for gaining a greater appreciation and understanding of the musical mind and world of Elvin Jones.
 
This is either a joke, a troll or sheer, utter ignorance.

G

Yes, well, or maybe it's just someone's opinion, an opinion with which you don't agree. I don't agree with it myself, but there's no reason to call names like that. Is there?
 
I still totally disagree. The first two run through are perfect; but by the time he gets into the 'Bonham triplets,' (yes, I know Morello and Elvin did them first.) somewhere in the third time through, the music is lost for me. And Tyner is lost too because he comes in early. But this is what I mean. You need to look at something as a musicians and say "hey, this doesn't work for me." 'Irregardless' or 'regardless' of public opinion, and this is why . . . for me, is that by the third time through, it is more about banging away at the drums, and less about music for me.

PS I didn't comment about this on Jay's thread because I knew you guys would have your way with me. But there is some merit to what Billy is saying. And yes, when I was young I loved those MO recordings and then when I got older and listened to the shite they were. I was pretty surprised how bad they were. And I loved tony Williams, but then became surprise at how loud he actually was. But in experimental music and improvisational music, there is bound to be some stuff that just doesn't work when you look at it with forty year hindsight. Unless they were all perfect.
 
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I still totally disagree. The first two run through are perfect; but by the time he gets into the 'Bonham triplets,' (yes, I know Morello and Elvin did them first.) somewhere in the third time through, the music is lost for me. And Tyner is lost too because he comes in early. But this is what I mean. You need to look at something as a musicians and say "hey, this doesn't work for me." 'Irregardless' or 'regardless' of public opinion, and this is why . . . for me, is that by the third time through, it is more about banging away at the drums, and less about music for me.

Well i'm in complete disagreement with your take on the music and Elvin's contribution to it McCoy too Ken so there you have it in the free and democratic world we live in. By the way if Elvin choose to play over the bar lines keeping it loose and flowing to complete his musical ideas so be it. Part of the organic nature of playing jazz from the heart without being "perfect" which makes true jazz players and the music special to me which is far more "perfect" than any strict classical tight and exact approach which may strive for being "correct" but not for a true jazz player to me. As the old line goes each to his own....

By the way did you think about what I had to offer on the subject or did you quickly dismiss the Elvin musical concepts insight I tried to pass along from the film I mentioned. And people ask why sometimes I say "why bother". You're own your own on this one buddy and sorry I can't help :{
 
Well i'm in complete disagreement with your take on the music and Elvin's contribution to it McCoy too Ken so there you have it in the free and democratic world we live in. By the way if Elvin choose to play over the bar lines keeping it loose and flowing to complete his musical ideas so be it. Part of the organic nature of playing jazz from the heart without being "perfect" which makes true jazz players and the music special to me which is far more "perfect" than any strict classical tight and exact approach which may strive for being "correct" but not for a true jazz player to me. As the old line goes each to his own....

By the way did you think about what I had to offer on the subject or did you quickly dismiss the Elvin musical concepts insight I tried to pass along from the film I mentioned. And people ask why sometimes I say "why bother". You're own your own on this one buddy and sorry I can't help :{

Actually, I did. and I thought, "oh, I should get that film." Did you think about what I had to say about the subject or like Gregg did you quickly dismiss what I was hearing? You seemed eager to agree with his assessment, which again,like Jay said, no matter what anyone says, one need not resort to name calling. so is that the way it is around here. you and Gregg can only agree when you have someone to take to task?
 
I still totally disagree. The first two run through are perfect; but by the time he gets into the 'Bonham triplets,' (yes, I know Morello and Elvin did them first.) somewhere in the third time through, the music is lost for me. And Tyner is lost too because he comes in early. But this is what I mean. You need to look at something as a musicians and say "hey, this doesn't work for me." 'Irregardless' or 'regardless' of public opinion, and this is why . . . for me, is that by the third time through, it is more about banging away at the drums, and less about music for me.

No, it isn't someone else's 'opinion' and you ARE wrong, Ken. Opinion in this case would be 'I don't like how Elvin solos'. How can I proclaim this? Because Elvin has never played a free solo in his life (his words, he knows the tune and plays it) AND has HIMSELF explained on many occasions his approach to soloing, apparently none of which you have read (or watched). You just cannot follow Elvin, but don't be dismayed, many others can't either, including McCoy on occasion who has himself said in many an interview, that he had to count when trading/playing with Elvin, as did many others including Sonny Rollins and Tommy Flanagan. The list of people Elvin has lost is long, Ken, don't worry. Every Elvin fan has at some point furiously counted an Elvin solo, gotten lost tapping their foot and so on. But what you hear as Elvin trying to fit in the notes, is just Elvin playing Elvin, playing what he hears and feels, so much so that sometimes he IS 'late' coming out of 4's and 8's. But that's ok because when someone (Trane maybe? I forget who) was asked what it was like trading with Elvin, he said 'sometimes he just takes longer to play 8 bars'. Maybe for you that is 'hands' or trying to fit in more notes, but for those that Elvin has moved, it's art. The difference between you and McCoy is that you say Elvin is playing too much 'hands', McCoy just admits he's lost and can't follow Elvin sometimes.

As for you losing the music, did you sing the head all the way through? You might be able to keep it better because I assure you, Elvin was singing it during his solo. Maybe try listening to Sonny Rollins' 'Live at the Villiage Vanguard' for a younger, not fully formed Elvin that might be easier for you to follow. But sorry to say, he still doesn't hold your hand and crash a cymbal at the top of every chorus.

You know, after typing all that, I think you are not serious. You must not be. You can't be. I mean, you couldn't BE more wrong, really. I'm not even trying to act like a jerk, I have just never seen such a declaration since 'Iraq has WMD's' that was that wrong.

Lastly, as I presume you actually know, there is no word called 'Irregardless' and no Jazz person calls them 'Bonham triplets'. Maybe you should go post on an Indyke thread.

G
 
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Actually, I did. and I thought, "oh, I should get that film." Did you think about what I had to say about the subject or like Gregg did you quickly dismiss what I was hearing? You seemed eager to agree with his assessment, which again,like Jay said, no matter what anyone says, one need not resort to name calling. so is that the way it is around here. you and Gregg can only agree when you have someone to take to task?

Look Ken, I don't WANT to agree with Stan, but he is right, so stop acting like a baby. Stan is right in that you probably didn't give much thought to what he said. Furthermore, how many times do you think us Jazz teachers have heard that argument? Too many, as Stan has also said. And yes, you should get that film. And do some reading and maybe more listening.

And as I'm sure Jay knows when he made his tongue in cheek comment, you know full well what a 'troll' is.

edit- oh, and to bring this back to the original post- having heard Lieb talked, and having talked to him at length about his favourite drummer Elvin, he too thinks you're wrong as he has used Elvin as an example of a true artistic statement, as well as Trane and few others. Not that that matters, just letting you know.

G
 
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