Artistic statement is a balance between head, heart and hand

MattRitter said:
I am a human being first, and a musician second. As a human being, I am truly sorry to see that Ken was treated in this way. As a musician, I am sorry to see that a discussion of jazz and Elvin Jones was reduced to name-calling. Elvin always seemed like a very warm man. He is probably turning in his grave.
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Sorry you missed the point. Sometimes you reach a stage in your life after hearing certain comments over and over again when you have to say "hey wait a minute here".

I'm actually a nice guy but sometimes the process of learning needs a firm kick in the pants :}
 
Well, Stan, you're not alone. I think we've all encountered some comments in our life that we're tired of hearing "over and over again." Ideally, we handle it by presenting our own opinion in a strong, clear, and persuasive manner...without resorting to "kicking" anyone "in the pants," or anywhere else for that matter. Just my opinion.
 
MattRitter said:
Well, Stan, you're not alone. I think we've all encountered some comments in our life that we're tired of hearing "over and over again." Ideally, we handle it by presenting our own opinion in a strong, clear, and persuasive manner...without resorting to "kicking" anyone "in the pants," or anywhere else for that matter. Just my opinion.
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"Kicking in the pants" in a good learning sense Matt {see the smiley}.

I've lost count of how many times early on in my jazz career when older and much wiser jazz players on the scene "kicked me in the pants" {words} for the reason of helping me get a better grasp on the music and my playing and about other certain vital players and their concepts. The stories I could tell. The delivery appeared negative to at the time but the results were positive as was their original intent which I didn't understand at first getting highly defensive with their comments instead. Such is way things go at times in the process of further learning in life's journey...

I did offer Ken some of my insight on the subject {in several post} and some further study material {the film} that may help unravel all things related to the musical concepts of Elvin Jones.
 
Steamer said:
"Kicking in the pants" in a good learning sense Matt {see the smiley}.
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Stan,

Of course, I understand your meaning with the phrase "kicking in the pants." I made reference to it because "kicking" is actually a pretty good description of what happened to Ken in this thread! He stated an opinion, and was swiftly beaten up for it. He was insulted numerous times, called "ignorant," and spoken to in a very demeaning manner. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I am saddened to see that he was treated that way. It's the age old story of violence erupting out of a difference in opinion. Ken does not deserve to be treated that way on this forum EVER...for any reason. Neither does any other forum member. It's wonderful that you feel such a strong passion for the drumming of Elvin Jones. However, if you want to win more supporters of Elvin's legacy, there are better ways to do it than what I saw in this thread.
 
MattRitter said:
Stan,

Of course, I understand your meaning with the phrase "kicking in the pants." I made reference to it because "kicking" is actually a pretty good description of what happened to Ken in this thread! He stated an opinion, and was swiftly beaten up for it. He was insulted numerous times, called "ignorant," and spoken to in a very demeaning manner. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I am saddened to see that he was treated that way. It's the age old story of violence erupting out of a difference in opinion. Ken does not deserve to be treated that way on this forum EVER...for any reason. Neither does any other forum member. It's wonderful that you feel such a strong passion for the drumming of Elvin Jones. However, if you want to win more supporters of Elvin's legacy, there are better ways to do it than what I saw in this thread.
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My firm point of view on this subject was given for all the best of intentions as indicated as seen as directed to me in a similar manner many years back from the bit of a personal history lesson about me given in my last post which I was hoping would clearly help to understand my own intent on the matter at hand. Guess not?. Can't really offer anything more if you can't see that and don't use the misunderstanding of my original intent as excuse as some may try do to not pry deeper into Elvin which is not what I have in mind and which won't help for leading to more understanding on the subject of his playing.
 
Steamer said:
My firm point of view on this subject was given for all the best of intentions as indicated as seen as directed to me in a similar manner many years back from the bit of a personal history lesson about me given in my last post which I was hoping would clearly help to understand my own intent on the matter at hand. Guess not?. Can't really offer anything more if you can't see that and don't use the misunderstanding of my original intent as excuse as some may try do to not pry deeper into Elvin which is not what I have in mind and which won't help for leading to more understanding on the subject of his playing.
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Elvin's legacy as a jazz master is safe and secure. For me, the more important aspect of this thread was how horribly Ken got treated as a person. We have some very young people reading through these threads. I've seen forum members say stuff like "the drums at school sound different than my drums at home." When school-aged kids look through this thread, I want them to clearly see that Ken's treatment here was NOT considered acceptable by all of us. Though not many people spoke up, I am sure that others felt the same way as me about some of the things said to Ken.

Let's all try to keep basic courtesy and human respect in mind here. It truly is more important than any disagreement over drumming.

You said you "can't offer anything more" here, and I will say the same for myself. I think I've expressed everything I wanted to express in this thread.

Thanks to everyone who listened.
 
MattRitter said:
Elvin's legacy as a jazz master is safe and secure. For me, the more important aspect of this thread was how horribly Ken got treated as a person. We have some very young people reading through these threads. I've seen forum members say stuff like "the drums at school sound different than my drums at home." When school-aged kids look through this thread, I want them to clearly see that Ken's treatment here was NOT considered acceptable by all of us. Though not many people spoke up, I am sure that others felt the same way as me about some of the things said to Ken.

Let's all try to keep basic courtesy and human respect in mind here. It truly is more important than any disagreement over drumming.

You said you "can't offer anything more" here, and I will say the same for myself. I think I've expressed everything I wanted to express in this thread.

Thanks to everyone who listened.
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Only a couple of us had serious issue with a few of Ken's Elvin comments and the CLEAR reasons why which showed Elvin's legacy in a poor and illinformed light IMO. If you find that insulting so be it since i've got a different take on it myself. It would just as bad to have not said a word and "let it go" from my standpoint. Let's make it also very clear this is not the Spanish inquisition for god's sake just an unfortunate choice of delivery of a clear message to another member by only a couple of individuals with a strong passion for Elvin the player and his approach and musical concepts and the recordings he left behind. The message delivery wasn't the most pleasant understood and i've already offered an apology for part in that MANY post back.

Yes Elvin is safe for sure but if you've encountered what i've heard from younger inexperienced players on the subject of Elvin over the last 30 some years of professional jazz teaching and playing you would see that the facts need to be presented in a proper light on the subject regarding his approach to jazz drumming for the benefit of all involved.
 
Michael G said:
It's kind of weird to see people get this worked up over this I mean, getting offended because of a comment towards an old drummer with no relation at all besides a strong feel admiration? That's taking it just a tad to far. He isn't a God...

You "serious" jazz cats need to let things slide once in a while.
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Really? I've seen to what level it can slide firsthand without saying anything and that for me offers no one involved any real service in my view musically speaking from an educational point of view and standpoint. We've just unfortunately touched on a subject{player} for me where the facts and the good fight are needed to keep the record straight not misrepresented.

I'm getting older and honestly i'm not interested in seeing where it may "slide" any longer. It's a past 50 thing my friends tell me :}
 
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Having myself been guilty of over reacting to statements made about jazz on these forums I really can't pass any judgements, but I guess I'm going to anyway.
I really don't care what anyone says about any jazz musician because I don't have any sacred cows to defend. It's those sacred cows that keep us all locked into the past, it's the worshiping at the alter of all that is sacred in jazz that hurts the music. And if you want to expose the chinks in your armor, just be predisposed to take it personally when anyone says anything that in your opinion is an attack on those sacred cows.
Rubbish, I say. Elvin Jones does not need defending. The idea itself is laughable. What I'm getting here is that a couple of people who really should know better felt that they themselves were being attacked, when they obviously were not, and I don't see that there's any other way to look at it.
I'm going to bet right here and how that you, Stan, and Gregg are nowhere near Elvin Jones as drummers, and you never will be. Also, why would you want to be? Elvin Jones did that, what we have to do is find what we can do that is ours and ours alone. That's the task at hand, to find and to play with our own unique voices.
"How dare you say that?" This is the kind of thing that builds a wall around jazz, which is the last thing that any of us who play the music need, and it is what gives rise, and validity, to the term "jazz snob."
 
Michael G said:
It's kind of weird to see people get this worked up over this I mean, getting offended because of a comment towards an old drummer with no relation at all besides a strong feel admiration? That's taking it just a tad to far. He isn't a God...

You "serious" jazz cats need to let things slide once in a while.
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This thread's personal style point flaws aside, I have always admired and been proud to have been associated with the jazz crowd because they do take it so seriously. In fact I've always felt kinda sorry for people who can't find it in themselves to feel music this intensely.

I can absolutely understand the rabid feelings for one of the icons of this community, and yeah Elvin Jones really is a god in this profession. And the reactions are just as strong with the Bonham crowd, the Buddy Rich crowd and the Beethoven fanatics in classical music.

We all come from different places when we gravitate to these forum deals. There are people here from all walks of life who see music in varying degrees of importance, although the type on the posts seem identical. Still it's probably the goal of these things for everyone to understand where the other is coming from. But I've always felt this was probably the least successful aspect of forum culture.

For a long time I thought the high brows would talk over the It's only music guys on forums like DW. Interestingly that really wasn't the case, and instead we see a great many play on the side or straight commercial guys genuinely confused about justifiable musical obsession. Then a hardcore with less than ideal people skills /not anyone in particular/ makes a crack that could have been delivered with more tact, and suddenly that guy is a snob who needs to take life less seriously. Then both sides start insulting each other, it crashes and burns 100 posts later, only to be followed by a similar thread a few days later.

For me the tape loop got old a long time ago.

When I was a really, really young guy, I used to have people sit me down and tell me about World War II French Resistance fighters, who would hijack Nazi trains that were trying to steal great works of art for storage in Germany, as a way of subjugating French culture. Stories are that those guys would literally take bullets trying to save Van Goughs, Picassos etc because they believed that some things possessed such an artistic importance as to define a very way of life, not just for themselves but for millions, and for generations to come. As I get a little more mature I found it further remarkable that people thought enough to sit me down long enough to hear those stories. Now I know that for my entire life, I was surrounded by musical hardcores who see music and life as the same thing.

Now you don't have to agree with this POV. But it is important to understand that there are a lot of people out there who see this whole thing as life and death. And yeah, they're going to express themselves accordingly. And you guys on the other side /be you good players, nice guys etc/ aren't going to change that no matter how hard you try.
 
jay norem said:
Having myself been guilty of over reacting to statements made about jazz on these forums I really can't pass any judgements.
But things are alright, I'm alright, I like what I do and I really don't care what anyone says because I don't have any sacred cows to defend. It's those sacred cows that keep us all locked into the past, it's the worshiping at the alter of all that is sacred in jazz that hurts the music. And if you want to expose the chinks in your armor, just be predisposed to take it personally when anyone says anything that in your opinion is an attack on those sacred cows.
Rubbish, I say. Elvin Jones does not need defending. The idea itself is laughable. What I'm getting here is that a couple of people who really should know better felt that they themselves were being attacked, when they obviously were not, and I don't see that there's any other way to look at it.
I'm going to bet right here and how that you, Stan, and Gregg are nowhere near Elvin Jones as drummers, and you never will be. Also, why would you want to be? Elvin Jones did that, what we have to do is find what we can do that is ours and ours alone. That's the task at hand, to find and to play with our own unique voices.
"How dare you say that?" This is the kind of thing that builds a wall around jazz, which is the last thing that any of us who play the music need, and it is what gives rise, and validity, to the term "jazz snob."
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Well it's simply about passing along the info to the next generation and having a clear idea how to approach that and listen to it, Elvin in this case. Yes i'm not Elvin i'm Stan and VERY much my own drummer warts and all and always have been. My jazz educator side is a different part of my makeup though and that's the part of me you're seeing this thread Jay :}
 
Steamer said:
Well it's simply about passing along the info to the next generation and clear idea how to approach that and listen to it, Elvin in this case.
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Something tells me that Ken is not of the next generation, so there's that, and that this "clear approach" to Elvin Jones is only your approach, your opinion, your take on it. There is only one authority on Elvin Jones, and that's Elvin Jones.
If you feel that it's up to you to pass along information to the next generation then I'd suggest that you try doing it in a more calm and dispassionate way, because you always undermine your own claim to authority when you take things too personally and fly off the handle, which is, in my opinion, what has happened here.
 
jay norem said:
Something tells me that Ken is not of the next generation, so there's that, and that this "clear approach" to Elvin Jones is only your approach, your opinion, your take on it. There is only one authority on Elvin Jones, and that's Elvin Jones.
If you feel that it's up to you to pass along information to the next generation then I'd suggest that you try doing it in a more calm and dispassionate way, because you always undermine your own claim to authority when you take things too personally and fly off the handle, which is, in my opinion, what has happened here.
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It's not my approach it's Elvin's approach that was in question Jay known well to all individuals who have taken the time to dig deep into it not just me. I've offered a few examples {the film about Elvin with Elvin's own words on his approach to drumming/music}} that would help Ken further his own insight on the subject.

I'm not flying off any handle only staying calm and true to what I know from my own jazz homework and years of experience practicing what I preach on the subject which unfortunately seems to have been missed at times in this discussion when it got sidetracked from the original intent of my reaction to his comments and needs repeating. We are ALL learning regardless of age is that okay to say when someone is clearly missing the mark and needs to dig deeper for a better understanding.
 
Well that's fine, Stan. Let's just agree to disagree, because I really don't this any of this matters very much.
 
jay norem said:
Well that's fine, Stan. Let's just agree to disagree, because I really don't this any of this matters very much.
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It's matters as Matt Smith said if you take playing jazz music very seriously which I certainly do, always have and if you want and desire to have a firm foundation of jazz related concepts[ music/drumming} to work with as a professional jazz player striving for your own voice at the same time going on. It's also a very important responsibility if you're passing along information to others in a jazz educational setting.
 
Well I don't take playing jazz all that seriously, I guess. Maybe that's why I'm so lousy at it! I love to do it, though, I always have and I've always wanted to do it better but I've never taken that or anything else all that seriously. I always though that taking things seriously was for...well, whoever.
To me it's fun. It's about life, which is fun to me. It feels good. I take a sort of hedonistic approach to drumming, as I do to everything in life. I want to dance and sing happily on the drums, not illustrate to people what a good student I am.
Now there are some pretty damn serious things in life. Music is not one of them, at least not to me. If it had to be I probably wouldn't be interested in it.
 
jay norem said:
Well I don't take playing jazz all that seriously, I guess. I love to do it, I always have and I've always wanted to do it better but I've never taken that or anything else all that seriously. I always though that taking things seriously was for...well, whoever.
To me it's fun. It's about life, which is fun to me. It feels good. I take a sort of hedonistic approach to drumming, as I do to everything in life. I want to dance and sing happily on the drums, not illustrate to people what a good student I am.
Now there are some pretty damn serious things in life. Music is not one of them, at least not to me. If it had to be I probably wouldn't be interested in it.
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Understood and each to his own with all due respect Jay. I'm not happy unless i'm serious about something that I really want to dig deep into to understand. Everybody is different in their approach {and enjoyment} to music and that's just fine with me.
 
Steamer said:
Understood and each to his own with all due respect Jay. I'm not happy unless i'm serious about something that I really want to dig deep into to understand. Everybody is different in their approach {and enjoyment} to music and that's just fine with me.
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Okay, and now we're getting back to the topic of this thread. To me, I can't make any kind of "artistic statement" through music unless I'm not taking it all that seriously, because if I am taking it seriously then I'm being a little too self-conscious, see.
To be an artist you have to be able to dance naked, as it were. You have to feel free enough to put your vision out there, unencumbered by considerations of what rules you may not be following to the letter, or what people may make of your dancing style.
Rules are made to be broken, they say. Some times they need to be thrown out completely. And there are times when the only thing to do is to throw a bomb through a window of the building where those rules are kept.
I speak here primarilly as a composer who is still trying to break the rules and bomb the old buildings where all those rules are kept. There's a great glee that comes from doing what you're not supposed to do, and it's that glee that I chase after, that informs my approach to music, a glee that is felt in the heart, and so it's up to my head and my hands to try to keep up!
 
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