Plastic hardware?

A few manufacturers have tried lightweight aluminum hardware before.

The problem is they fall over too easily.

Sure, we all hate carrying heavy stands. But when you hit a drum or cymbal, even with proper technique, it creates quite a bit of force, and without some weight, the stands go right over.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
A few manufacturers have tried lightweight aluminum hardware before.

The problem is they fall over too easily.

Sure, we all hate carrying heavy stands. But when you hit a drum or cymbal, even with proper technique, it creates quite a bit of force, and without some weight, the stands go right over.
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Exactly. It’s all about lowering the center of gravity. That’s why double braced hardware originally came about, to add mass near the bottom of the stand, hence lowering the center of gravity and adding stability.

To take this to an extreme example, imagine a cymbal boom stand made entirely of wire pipe cleaner. Even if you could somehow engineer in enough strength to support the cymbal, the whole contraption would be so top heavy that it would either fall over on its own, or tip over as soon as the cymbal is struck. Similarly, a PVC cymbal stand would also be fairly top heavy (once you mounted a cymbal to it), and prone to falling over.

Unfortunately, as much as it sucks to transport a heavy hardware bag, a minimal amount of weight is needed for any cymbal stand.
 
AzHeat said:
Surprised we don't have carbon fiber hardware already.
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Most people don't wanna spend $1500 on a cymbal stand, that's the main issue. But carbon fiber is getting cheaper. I would love to have an affordable set of carbon fiber hardware, maybe in 2030?

This guy made a prototype of a carbon hi-hat stand. He doesn't call it "carbon fiber"...just carbon. But it looks like carbon fiber to me. He says it weighs about 4.2 lbs, which is super light, but not quite as light as the DW Ultralight or the Yamaha Crosstown HH stands.

His store doesn't appear to be active at the moment, but maybe that's due to the Covid?

UkiZfES.png


 
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IBitePrettyHard said:
He doesn't call it "carbon fiber"...just carbon. But it looks like carbon fiber to me.
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Other people call it "plastic", because its really mostly just epoxy.

Carbon is actually easier to get into playing around with than you might think.

There are people who make "carbon fiber" bamboo bikes, bamboo coated in epoxy with carbon fiber joints. I don't see why you couldn't make bamboo stands, or replace parts of a metal stand with bamboo and carbon.

This one uses hemp instead of carbon fiber tape: https://www.etsy.com/listing/237371...MIyOOP_YGt6QIVY-W1Ch0Xww5rEAQYBSABEgLk5fD_BwE

www.kickstarter.com

Bikes made from bamboo! District Bamboo Bikes

Handcrafted bikes created from bamboo that are cool, reliable, and a unique, functional work of art nobody else will have.
www.kickstarter.com www.kickstarter.com

I think the added weight only helps at the bottom, so the posts are clearly superfluous.
 
I'm not an expert in the engineering of materials, but I'd be reluctant to put my trust in plastic hardware. A metal of some sort encased in strong plastic to provide rust protection and so on might be a good idea. I'd just want a more solid core than plastic itself. I've seen lots of plastic develop cracks over the years.

I'm just speaking from intuition here. For all I know, plastic hardware might be on the horizon that will put everything else we've used to shame.
 
IBitePrettyHard said:
Most people don't wanna spend $1500 on a cymbal stand, that's the main issue. But carbon fiber is getting cheaper. I would love to have an affordable set of carbon fiber hardware, maybe in 2030?

This guy made a prototype of a carbon hi-hat stand. He doesn't call it "carbon fiber"...just carbon. But it looks like carbon fiber to me. He says it weighs about 4.2 lbs, which is super light, but not quite as light as the DW Ultralight or the Yamaha Crosstown HH stands.

His store doesn't appear to be active at the moment, but maybe that's due to the Covid?

UkiZfES.png


Click to expand...

direct from his website:


Due to increased requests:
  • The workshop is NOT affected by the closing starting from 16.03.2020. The workshop is located underneath our apartment and can be accessed anytime.
  • Any requests, orders or deliveries will be processed as usual.
  • My supply chain is NOT affected. Shipping via UPS works as usual worldwide, even to Italy (except locked-down provinces)
Keep calm and just let me know if there's anything I can do for you!
 
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MrInsanePolack said:
I dunno. Plastic is flexible, it has to be. If it was rigid it would break too easily.

Think about a cymbal stand with schedule 40 PVC for water lines. It would flex like crazy. I'm sure it would hold up, but I'm also pretty sure your cymbal would move all over the place.

Weight might be an issue also. A plastic stand might not have enough weight to keep from tipping over.

Plastic car parts dont always work. Plastic intake manifolds melt. Plastic valve covers crack. Plastic intake tubes dry out, crack, then cause vacuum leaks. Plastic door handles break, as do plastic knobs, and wiper/turn signal arms too. Plastic dashboards crack. Plastic pedal boxes break, as do plastic shifter housings.

I dont like plastic for important things. Metal is the way to go for structure and stability. Now a drum shell might be a fabulous use for plastic in a drum set. Acrylic is a plastic (yes I know not all acrylic is a plastic, I'm pretty sure the drum shells are), and we all know how well they work. This might be a good idea actually. How much wasted plastic is in landfills and the ocean? Melt that stuff down and recycle it into drums.
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I think you'll find all acrylic IS a plastic.
 
I just don't see the point. It has to have weight, strength, sturdiness. It has to stand up to getting whacked around. It has to stand the test of time. Plastic doesn't provide any of this. I would certainly enjoy less expensive/high quality/strong equipment that was lighter. I just don't see how plastic can do the job we need it to do.
 
Yamaha Rider said:
All acrylic products are plastic, acid based or not. I'd never heard of acrylic acid I must admit. I bet you hadn't till you googled it either. ?
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I do check before I post usually. If not someone will have something to say. You in this instance lol.

And I never said all acrylic products, only that not all acrylic is plastic. Acid is not plastic.
 
TK-421 said:
Exactly. It’s all about lowering the center of gravity. That’s why double braced hardware originally came about, to add mass near the bottom of the stand, hence lowering the center of gravity and adding stability.

To take this to an extreme example, imagine a cymbal boom stand made entirely of wire pipe cleaner. Even if you could somehow engineer in enough strength to support the cymbal, the whole contraption would be so top heavy that it would either fall over on its own, or tip over as soon as the cymbal is struck. Similarly, a PVC cymbal stand would also be fairly top heavy (once you mounted a cymbal to it), and prone to falling over.

Unfortunately, as much as it sucks to transport a heavy hardware bag, a minimal amount of weight is needed for any cymbal stand.
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Bingo.

Sonar attempted aluminum stands in the late 80's. The boom stands were so light, they would fall over just by placing a cymbal on them. The straight stands were ok as long as no one hit the cymbal too hard. The snare stands were so light, the snare drum would jump around with normal playing.

It was an epic failure in sales.

Gibraltar tried again in the early-mid 90's, and again, it was an epic failure.

Without a heavy base, cymbal stands just fall over with minimal effort.
 
TK-421 said:
Exactly. It’s all about lowering the center of gravity. That’s why double braced hardware originally came about, to add mass near the bottom of the stand, hence lowering the center of gravity and adding stability.

To take this to an extreme example, imagine a cymbal boom stand made entirely of wire pipe cleaner. Even if you could somehow engineer in enough strength to support the cymbal, the whole contraption would be so top heavy that it would either fall over on its own, or tip over as soon as the cymbal is struck. Similarly, a PVC cymbal stand would also be fairly top heavy (once you mounted a cymbal to it), and prone to falling over.

Unfortunately, as much as it sucks to transport a heavy hardware bag, a minimal amount of weight is needed for any cymbal stand.
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I've been seriously considering the new Yamaha aluminums. I think you just talked me out of them.
 
C.M. Jones said:
I'm not an expert in the engineering of materials, but I'd be reluctant to put my trust in plastic hardware.
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That would be the common perception ... metal=good, plastic=cheap

However there are modern plastics that are stronger than steel, polycarbonate! The use it for canopies of Raptor jet fighters. It is also called “bullet proof glass”.

I first used it on drum hardware back in the 90s when I bought a set of Sonor Sonic hardware where it was used to replace the cast joint pieces on stands. It made for medium/heavy duty stands with a great reduction in weight. At the time I figured it wouldn’t last too long, but I am still using it after 25 years with zero fatigue.
 
First up, acrylic acid is a constituent feedstock for many plastics, not a plastic in itself, in fact, the very definition of plastic is based more on it's physical properties than it's composition. There are two primary plastic groups, but let's not get into that for now. For the record, I've been dealing with acrylic acid for more than 30 years, so I know it pretty well.

Most plastics are created to fulfil a specific function, including their processability, although plastic "types" are a very broad church. In terms of physical properties, they typically require the addition of plasticisers to keep them flexible / non brittle, and various additional UV / ozone anti ageing agents to prevent them from degradation in certain environments, but the list of "modifications" is endless depending on intended use. Most plastics, outside of form influence, in themselves, do not offer directional strength priority. You need to add something else, mostly with strands, to achieve that, hence carbon fibre, fibreglass, etc.

Ageing is a big issue when applied to things like musical instruments, and just like any other material, you need to select a characteristic priority list to come up with an optimum material. It's perfectly possible to create a bespoke plastic grade with fillers to satisfy the physical and ageing demands associated with drum hardware, but by the time you've done that, the cost will significantly exceed that of standard materials more suited to the task by their foundation.
 
dboomer said:
That would be the common perception ... metal=good, plastic=cheap

However there are modern plastics that are stronger than steel, polycarbonate! The use it for canopies of Raptor jet fighters. It is also called “bullet proof glass”.

I first used it on drum hardware back in the 90s when I bought a set of Sonor Sonic hardware where it was used to replace the cast joint pieces on stands. It made for medium/heavy duty stands with a great reduction in weight. At the time I figured it wouldn’t last too long, but I am still using it after 25 years with zero fatigue.
Click to expand...

Strength is only one aspect of a material. Titanium is stronger than steel ounce for ounce, but when you compare strength per unit volume steel is stronger, because titanium is many times less dense. Hence titanium will scratch, because it is soft, counter intuitive. There are many other considerations to take into account for any particular application, flexibility, brittleness, vibration, chemical stability, memory, expansion, workability etc. Within many of these materials there are a range of alloys, tempers and formulations, that will make the material stronger, stiffer etc. So it is difficult to generalize.
 
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