Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

markiet1966 said:
I must admit I have absolutely no idea why sexism (or racism for that matter) even exists, maybe it's human conditioning. From a personal perspective I can't think of any reason why I would think of a female musician as being any different from me, it's certainly not quality of musicianship, we all work at differing levels of ability.

I think that it's human conditioning passed down the generations to people who just don't think too hard about their attitudes and ideals, because surely if they did think about it, they would have a hard time reconciling their actions.

Mark
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Personally I just think it's a lack of intelligence actually.

I mean, we're all products of the environment we were brought up in. Jesus, my dad was rabidly racist. I'm not (but I was as a kid). I grew out of it when my brain developed.

My friend remains casually racist to this day. He's a bit thick.

I'm convinced it's as simple as that. Whenever you see groups of EDL for example, they don't exactly look, sound, or act like the pool balls are all in the triangle.
 
Ironically, the prospect of being sexually propositioned has been a driving factor in many a young man's desire to pick up a guitar, a pair of sticks or belt out a tune in the first place.

Wish we had an answer for you Madge. If you were a 16 year old male, you'd no doubt see the advances of the opposite sex quite differently. Alas as it stands, it's a shame that you can't just enjoy what you're doing without being made to feel uncomfortable doing it. Hopefully the tide is turning, but the evolutionary process can be awfully slow.

In the meantime, a good old fashioned expletive filled directive can be quite effective at keeping the wolves from the door.
 
SquadLeader said:
Personally I just think it's a lack of intelligence actually.

I mean, we're all products of the environment we were brought up in. Jesus, my dad was rabidly racist. I'm not (but I was as a kid). I grew out of it when my brain developed.

My friend remains casually racist to this day. He's a bit thick.

I'm convinced it's as simple as that. Whenever you see groups of EDL for example, they don't exactly look, sound, or act like the pool balls are all in the triangle.
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I agree SquadLeader, that's kind of what I meant when I mentioned that they do not think too hard about their attitudes and ideals. I'm friends with people on Facebook that I went to school with, some of them still have racist and sexist attitudes, the one thing that I notice is that they will rant on using street slang, no punctuation whatsoever and making no real sense. It is a bit of a generalisation...but generally, I think you're right!

Mark
 
This is not meant to be a sexist comment but maybe our expectations are lower when it comes to talent. For instance, female comedians rarely make me laugh. There are exceptions, but for the most part, they don't entertain me and make me laugh.

Sorry. Please don't hate me.
 
Midnite Zephyr said:
This is not meant to be a sexist comment but maybe our expectations are lower when it comes to talent. For instance, female comedians rarely make me laugh. There are exceptions, but for the most part, they don't entertain me and make me laugh.

Sorry. Please don't hate me.
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Just a taste thing I'd say.

It's allowed. I don't particularly like reggae, rap, and many other styles of music dominated by black musicians. Doesn't make me racist. It's just not to my taste. Doesn't mean I don't like the black musicians performing the music. It's just the music I don't like.

On the other hand I like Ska which is rooted in the reggae movement.

Taste. Simple as that I reckon.
 
SquadLeader said:
Just a taste thing I'd say.

It's allowed. I don't particularly like reggae, rap, and many other styles of music dominated by black musicians. Doesn't make me racist. It's just not to my taste. Doesn't mean I don't like the black musicians performing the music. It's just the music I don't like.

On the other hand I like Ska which is rooted in the reggae movement.

Taste. Simple as that I reckon.
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I could have written every word of that! In fact, I wish I had - and I probably will, at some point ;)
 
SquadLeader said:
Just a taste thing I'd say.

It's allowed. I don't particularly like reggae, rap, and many other styles of music dominated by black musicians. Doesn't make me racist. It's just not to my taste. Doesn't mean I don't like the black musicians performing the music. It's just the music I don't like.

On the other hand I like Ska which is rooted in the reggae movement.

Taste. Simple as that I reckon.
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Off subject, sorry Madge, but I'd say reggae is rooted in the ska movement to be more exact. Not the other way around, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway...
 
Midnite Zephyr said:
This is not meant to be a sexist comment but maybe our expectations are lower when it comes to talent. For instance, female comedians rarely make me laugh. There are exceptions, but for the most part, they don't entertain me and make me laugh.
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How is your not liking female-anatomied comedians a reflection on their talent? I don't get it. The talent is there, and 'female' is not a genre or style of comedy, so I don't see how this can be a matter of taste, unless you just think women can't be/aren't funny just because they're women. If you feel that way, fine, but that's strictly an issue with your own feelings, not with somebody else's lack of talent.
 
toddbishop said:
How is your not liking female-anatomied comedians a reflection on their talent? I don't get it. The talent is there, and 'female' is not a genre or style of comedy, so I don't see how this can be a matter of taste, unless you just think women can't be/aren't funny just because they're women. If you feel that way, fine, but that's strictly an issue with your own feelings, not with somebody else's lack of talent.
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If I understand correctly, the issue of "taste" related to whether or not the comedians' material was found to be funny. I think it was probably entirely coincidental that they happened to be female. I suppose if you think about it, the ratio of funny/unfunny comedians is probably similar in males and in females, but the paucity of women comedians may skew the perception.
 
There is a lot really good stuff here. I wish I could thumbs up or quote and comment on everything I love about this thread, but that would be crazy huge post.

In my opinion, the most rampant problem with the sexism in drumming is with the girls taking advantage of it. Regardless of talent, their is a vacancy in the drumming market for a good "view". If you know the drumming world is male dominated and you've got the goods to take full advantage of that, there seems to be no limit to how much exposure you can get in filling that vacancy. The more popular the female drummer, the more cookie cutter, half model, half popstar princess doll they become .. almost as a rule.

Sometimes I swear we are only a few years away from a Drumboy magazine so some nonsense.. I wouldn't be surprised if a swimsuit calendar already exists. This stuff is so ridiculous.

In short, both males and females both are responsible for this perpetual subjugation machine. I'm having a daughter soon, and as much I would love for her to be a drummer, I don't want her swept away in the image obsessed vortex of female drumming. Its a bit strident, but its my view.

On the other hand, Cindy Blackman is the paradigm exception to the rule. She is a bonafide badass behind the drums, and she doesn't give a shit about what anybody thinks of her, and its awesome. Mag- I would put you in that category and commend you for breaking the rule and standing up for self worth. The world of drumming needs more women like you guys and more men that don't drool at any set of tits with drums.
 
Magenta said:
If I understand correctly, the issue of "taste" related to whether or not the comedians' material was found to be funny. I think it was probably entirely coincidental that they happened to be female. I suppose if you think about it, the ratio of funny/unfunny comedians is probably similar in males and in females, but the paucity of women comedians may skew the perception.
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These things are delicate hey... If you say I don't like female athletes because they don't run as fast as male ones, I don't know if one should call it sexist but st least it's based on facts.
Now about female comedians and being funny... Female brains and male brains ARE known to be different (I am assuming funny is in the brain :)), for starters the weight.
Then again the standard variation among females and males is probably more than the difference between the average of each group.

Maybe we should go back to the kit and paradiddle....
 
wsabol said:
There is a lot really good stuff here. I wish I could thumbs up or quote and comment on everything I love about this thread, but that would be crazy huge post.

In my opinion, the most rampant problem with the sexism in drumming is with the girls taking advantage of it. Regardless of talent, their is a vacancy in the drumming market for a good "view". If you know the drumming world is male dominated and you've got the goods to take full advantage of that, there seems to be no limit to how much exposure you can get in filling that vacancy. The more popular the female drummer, the more cookie cutter, half model, half popstar princess doll they become .. almost as a rule.

Sometimes I swear we are only a few years away from a Drumboy magazine so some nonsense.. I wouldn't be surprised if a swimsuit calendar already exists. This stuff is so ridiculous.

In short, both males and females both are responsible for this perpetual subjugation machine. I'm having a daughter soon, and as much I would love for her to be a drummer, I don't want her swept away in the image obsessed vortex of female drumming. Its a bit strident, but its my view.

On the other hand, Cindy Blackman is the paradigm exception to the rule. She is a bonafide badass behind the drums, and she doesn't give a shit about what anybody thinks of her, and its awesome. Mag- I would put you in that category and commend you for breaking the rule and standing up for self worth. The world of drumming needs more women like you guys and more men that don't drool at any set of tits with drums.
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I do hope that, between being a will-less, hot, drumming (but not very well) sex toy, and no longer giving a shit (or some animal's arse as they say in Wales) about what other people think, there is a quiet place in the middle where normal girls and women can simply enjoy playing and become competent and admired drummers.
 
I dont know if being ignored in a shop is always down to a sexist assistant. I have been passed over before, when it was patently my turn, I said "Excuse me I think I am next" and that problem is usually sorted. I dont automatically believe its because I am short, or old, or whatever. It could be a genuine mistake, ignorance, or a guy wanting to serve his mate first.

If the assistant said "Oh I wasnt serving you cos your old", now that would be different, time for me to go ballistic and demand to see owner/manager.

Sometimes people just don't think, or do the easy thing first.

Not saying sexism is not out there, I know it is. Sadly, old habits seem to be dieing very hard.
 
Madge, I remembered a few things today that are examples of 'everyday sexism'.

i) A sign saying 'Please wash up after yourself: I'm not your mother'.

Hmmm. Light-hearted but...

ii) The reaction my ex had every time we went into a restaurant and I was addressed first, as if to make the order on her behalf. Used to drive her around the bend...

Many others I'm sure but there are two that I recall.
 
mikel said:
I dont know if being ignored in a shop is always down to a sexist assistant. I have been passed over before, when it was patently my turn, I said "Excuse me I think I am next" and that problem is usually sorted. I dont automatically believe its because I am short, or old, or whatever. It could be a genuine mistake, ignorance, or a guy wanting to serve his mate first.

If the assistant said "Oh I wasnt serving you cos your old", now that would be different, time for me to go ballistic and demand to see owner/manager.

Sometimes people just don't think, or do the easy thing first.

Not saying sexism is not out there, I know it is. Sadly, old habits seem to be dieing very hard.
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In general Mike, I agree. However, I am aware of one of the episodes that Madge refers to. It was at a trade show some months ago, & the guy involved was/is an absolute bigoted idiot. Even when it was clearly pointed out to him that Madge was the purchaser, he continued to blank her completely. Needless to say, that individual is no longer associated with the company who was running the trade stand.
 
keep it simple said:
In general Mike, I agree. However, I am aware of one of the episodes that Madge refers to. It was at a trade show some months ago, & the guy involved was/is an absolute bigoted idiot. Even when it was clearly pointed out to him that Madge was the purchaser, he continued to blank her completely. Needless to say, that individual is no longer associated with the company who was running the trade stand.
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I couldnt agree more. It seems there is no shortage of brain dead morons. What was someone with such poor people skills, or indeed common decency, doing working front end for a company, whatever there size?
 
wsabol said:
Mag- I would put you in that category and commend you for breaking the rule and standing up for self worth. The world of drumming needs more women like you guys and more men that don't drool at any set of tits with drums.
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Thank you, that's kind of you. I was going to say "Thank you, chicken" but I stopped myself, just in case it was wrong of me. The world also needs more men like the vast majority of those on DW. Please fight the good fight, chaps!

picodon said:
I do hope that, between being a will-less, hot, drumming (but not very well) sex toy, and no longer giving a shit (or some animal's arse as they say in Wales) about what other people think, there is a quiet place in the middle where normal girls and women can simply enjoy playing and become competent and admired drummers.
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That would be nice. Shall we make it happen?

keep it simple said:
This time round, it's shoes - apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoKsSD1eZak

.
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I'm not showing that to the Singapore Slingbacks: they'll want her instead of me! Clearly, she has modelled herself on us :) WFID was asking about playing in heels at LDS. I think that would answer her question.

Can't decide about Meytal's hair. Mine would do that if I let it, but I'm not entirely convinced that I could carry it off as well as she does.
 
IMO the things that were thrown your way Madge....could have been stopped dead in it's tracks by you slicing and dicing your attackers with your cutting wit, and your superior word chops. Meaning turning everything around on them so that THEY are in the hot seat. The best defense is a good offense.

If you don't speak up, it becomes a lot worse than if you just threw the grenade back at them and let them squirm. If it worked out like I envisioned, you would have felt empowered, felt confident, and actually helped to correct the situation. In the future, I'd like to see you handle it head on, with class, wit, and total confidence as you rip them a new hole.

Most guys I know don't like being dressed down by anybody, regardless of sex. When you have right on your side, it's kind of your responsibility to fight that which pisses you off. Or it will keep happening.

Failing that, ridiculing his penis size and lack of manliness can work pretty well with certain types lol.

If you really want to be equal, and this is not directed at you Madge, you have to actually act equal and not accept that which is unacceptable.

Questioning is a great tactic:

Rude man: Hey baby, I love the way you jiggle when you play.

Nice woman: Who the hell gave you permission to talk to me like that? (Standing up aggressively, seething with anger and walking towards him) Well who?

Sometimes you have to fight.
 
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