Metal vs Wood - these Snares Sound the Same - Video by Sounds Like A Drum

[eric_B]

Interesting:

 

[bongoman]

Great stuff! I'm a long time axe-grinder about the problem of "listening with your eyes". It is pervasive in all instruments, engineering, and audio listening equipment, even for experienced pros.

Of course there *are* qualities inherent to specific drum shells that change how they sound and feel- a thick cast bronze shell sounds different from a thin mahogany shell- but his point that I agree with is that we often make a LOT more assumptions about what those qualities are, than actually exist. And also the point about how much impact on sound a careful/skillful player can have, compared to how much people expect to get from buying a new piece of gear.

 

[JimmyM]

Can’t watch it yet, but I also find shell material to matter way less than it’s made to look. That said, I have my favorites anyway.

 

[alparrott]

I choose my snare drum much like I pick my shoes: They all look great, feel great, and get me where I'm going. What do I feel like using today?

 

[Hollywood Jim]

I thought he made some very good points in the video. I agree with most everything that was said.
However, I have one thing to add. Some snare drums, toms and bass drums can be set up to sound louder than other drums in a live band setting. My new Yamaha oak drums can be set up to be louder than my vintage Slingerland drums. The Yamahas will cut through a loud band better. But both can sound very much the same when hit softly in a studio setting.

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[Captain Bash]

I both agree and disagree with the video. The shallower the shell the less influence it has on the sound, so comparing a 6.5“ deep metal and wood drums would in my view show greater sonic contrast between the shell materials. However, I do think there is more overlap than we generally think especially when all the other variables (rims, heads, snares) are factored in.

 

[Drumolator]

I like all of their videos because they try out things that drummers assume are true. Often the drummers' assumptions are wrong. Peace and goodwill.

 

[Jeremy Bender]

The two drums compared were close in comparsion. If they had chosen a stainless steel shell vs a tulip wood drum I think we would have noticed a greater contrast in tone.

This exercise unfortunately had no choice but be demonstrated through microphones for us to hear it. A symphonic percussionist performing in an acoustic setting will choose a snare drum carefully for tone for and that is affected by shell material among other factors.

I agree with the idea that some people listen with their eyes.

 

[timmdrum]

I agree with:

Great stuff! I'm a long time axe-grinder about the problem of "listening with your eyes". It is pervasive in all instruments, engineering, and audio listening equipment, even for experienced pros.

Of course there *are* qualities inherent to specific drum shells that change how they sound and feel- a thick cast bronze shell sounds different from a thin mahogany shell- but his point that I agree with is that we often make a LOT more assumptions about what those qualities are, than actually exist.

I also find shell material to matter way less than it’s made to look.

For sure, people listen with their eyes. We can't help it. I've also said elsewhere on here fairly recently that where shell material and construction matters most re: sound is how much and how efficiently the shell allows the heads to do what they do (true round cylinder, true flat edges, shape of bearing edges, etc). They are the things that are literally moving air to create sound waves.

That said, I do still believe that shell material matters a little- 10%-ish, maybe- and I can hear it (more so with the snares off, naturally, and even more so with rimshots vs. head-only strikes), even in this video where the two snare drums sound very close to alike, but not exactly. (I closed my eyes at each comparison to make sure.) I also think certain shell materials of differing types sound more different from each other- brass and steel sound slightly more ping-y than wood, and more so with softer woods like Luan ("Philippine mahogany") and poplar. With the same heads and identical tuning, my old Legend 5.5x14 maple drum with die-cast hoops sounded surprisingly close to my old Pearl Export 6.5x14 steel drum with flanged hoops (so much so that it taught me that most of that "ping" sound is in the heads and not the shell); my Ahead 6x14 brass drum with S-Hoops sounds a little more different from the Legend and both of my 5x14 maple drums (Mapex Pro-M and Pacific CX, both with flanged hoops) and even more different from a recent Ddrum D2 6x14 poplar drum (flanged also) that I recently had briefly (flipped kit). Both of my Acros sound closer to the maple drums. And yeah, I've put identical heads on & tuned the same, just to compare, 'cause I'm nerdy like that.

I do still know from personal experience that these differences are even less apparent when listening to the signal of a close mic- pointed right at the head- through a PA, because the mic is "listening" to the head and can't pick up shell tone very well due to its position, and that variables like flanged (due to lighter weight and more flex) vs. die-cast hoops, and head choices, affect overall tone much more than shell material. I don't even think a 6 lug 14" snare is in any sonic disadvantage, other than the increased hoop flex (6/8/10 lugs and thin hoops make the head vibrate a little differently) and decreased ability to reach high tensions without a hardware failure due to only having 6 points of tension. My current rehearsal snare is a 14" 6-lug steel cheapo (also discussed in someone else's thread fairly recently) and it sounds the same as an 8-lug- granted, I haven't tuned it higher than medium. It does sound different than my 10-lug / die-cast hoops / extended snare wires Tama Mastercraft beast- there's a shared tonality but the drums have bigger differences than shell material).

And I partially agree with:

The shallower the shell the less influence it has on the sound, so comparing a 6.5“ deep metal and wood drums would in my view show greater sonic contrast between the shell materials. However, I do think there is more overlap than we generally think especially when all the other variables (rims, heads, snares) are factored in.

Yes, more shell = more opportunity for the shell to affect tone, but in my experience, the depth itself- the literal distance between the heads- affects the tone more audibly than the shell material, compared to more shallow shells. I expect that I'd be able to tell the difference slightly more so when comparing 8-ish inch shells, but I've never owned one.

 

[bud7h4]

People tend to confuse "not a huge difference" with "no difference at all".
I hear a subtle yet very clear difference between those drums.

These are musical instruments. Subtle differences are what we should expect. Whether you're a drummer of violinist, something that sounds just the way you want it to (drunks in the audience be damned) can inspire you to perform or create at your highest level.

 

[Winston_Wolf]

People tend to confuse "not a huge difference" with "no difference at all".
I hear a subtle yet very clear difference between those drums.

These are musical instruments. Subtle differences are what we should expect. Whether you're a drummer of violinist, something that sounds just the way you want it to (drunks in the audience be damned) can inspire you to perform or create at your highest level.

I agree completely! It's that little 5% or so that we often agonize over because it makes us smile, even if no one else can tell.

 

[JimmyM]

People tend to confuse "not a huge difference" with "no difference at all".
I hear a subtle yet very clear difference between those drums.

These are musical instruments. Subtle differences are what we should expect. Whether you're a drummer of violinist, something that sounds just the way you want it to (drunks in the audience be damned) can inspire you to perform or create at your highest level.

I would go along with that. Plus some subtle differences mean everything to some people and aren’t subtle at all to them. But that doesn’t mean I necessarily disagree with Cody in this video.

 

[striker]

It depends. Take the mahogany snare that came with my drum set and compare it to any steel snare. You can tell the difference immediately.

 

[GetAgrippa]

Well I agree with all he said, But I was just sitting watching a movie and listening on headphones (so multitasking in and out) )and I could hear a difference in timbre in transitions. Now I wasn't paying attention to what was what so couldn't tell wood from metal. But there was a change in sound a bit. Like a dryness in one.

I've always felt the further away you are the less you can differentiate and tell a difference in any kit, but up close and behind the kit I think we do perceive a difference in it's timbre that no one else will likely hear. So is it just an acoustic hearing phenomena or a real difference in timbre. Well those spectral analysis interestingly show a lot of variation , and differences, in the 1-2k Hz range which we are most a tuned in hearing -and those overtones we interpret as the timbre of it. I found these spectral analysis and I superimposed the bottom threshold curve-so we just hear above that curve.. But the fundemtal will be what most everyone else hears. I also think we feel the vibrations of drums and that alters our perception as much as his point vision does-which I agree it does jade us. You can trick your ears just like your eyes-so I'm open the difference we hear is more Ghost in our machine LOL. They all sound like a drum.

 

[BenOBrienSmith]

It's really interesting how many people fixated on the title and cover image and just skipped over all of the context and the real point of this video (not so much on this thread but particularly in the comments section of the video).

People tend to confuse "not a huge difference" with "no difference at all".
I hear a subtle yet very clear difference between those drums.

These are musical instruments. Subtle differences are what we should expect. Whether you're a drummer of violinist, something that sounds just the way you want it to (drunks in the audience be damned) can inspire you to perform or create at your highest level.

Absolutely! Just like people tend to judge a video by the title and cover image alone without grasping the full context.

It depends. Take the mahogany snare that came with my drum set and compare it to any steel snare. You can tell the difference immediately.

Perfect example- have you tried doing this comparison? Have you tried to make them sound the same? Because what we did in the video took a few minutes and we ran with it. We could have spent another 10-15 really dialing it in but that's still not the point. It may be challenging but it is quite possible if you take advantage of all that can be controlled and are willing to think beyond the imaginary boundaries that are established to sell more drums.

In the end, these were three of the main takeaways:

1. There's a massive amount of crossover between any two drums, regardless of the build details. Even if you think you can hear the difference in a back to back comparison when they're both tuned to sound the same, that would never happen in a musical context. And who's to say that the difference being heard wasn't caused by the player with their strike zones or small differences in tuning, or the different heads, or all of the other variables that were inconsistent between the two drums?

2. The player is responsible for the sound, not the drum. The drum establishes a spectrum of options and then player can explore within this vast range. This realization will be liberating to some and terrifying to others (see the people up in arms over this in the comments).

3. When we (the drumming community at large) are provided with information about a drum aside from just it's sound (the appearance, price, specs, etc.) our perception is colored. Some people are so willfully blinded by this that they will get up in arms to defend a range of placebos rather than recognizing how liberating it is to know that WE are the ones in control of the sound we make. This feeds into the gross generalizations that are made in the same way that people talk about metal vs. wood snare drums (which is why we chose to use this as a vehicle for the narrative we wanted to share).

While some people thought this was a comparison or challenge to see who could hear the difference...it really wasn't. We set a bit of a trap with this one to showcase and make a point that we knew most people wouldn't get. There wasn't any malicious intent but we knew there would be some people who would get all high and mighty about this sort of thin. We didn't make this video for them. We made the video for the open minded, free-thinking individuals who are willing to break down preconceived notes and approach the possibilities of these instruments through experience rather than marketing and groupthink.

 

[rungeflash]

It’s not just shell material….but shell thickness IMO. My 6.0mm RN2 maple renowns do not sound like my 10.4mm beechwood phonics. I don’t care if they have the same heads, same fundamental tuning or not. They sound quite different to my ear. And every other drumming buddy I’ve had over to my house to play them has stated the same.

 

[BenOBrienSmith]

It’s not just shell material….but shell thickness IMO. My 6.0mm RN2 maple renowns do not sound like my 10.4mm beechwood phonics. I don’t care if they have the same heads, same fundamental tuning or not. They sound quite different to my ear. And every other drumming buddy I’ve had over to my house to play them has stated the same.

I love that you've set up these drums and tried to tune them the same to actually conduct this experiment. Most people just parrot the information they heard/read and often do so with fear of buyer's remorse (how can I justify this drum if it sounds like that drum?). And again, every aspect of these two drums from our episode was different with the exception of the general diameter (14") and the snare side head (Snare Side 300). But it's entirely common for people to focus on the shell- whether it's the material or the thickness or the shape, etc. In reality, all of these design elements affect performance to varying degrees.

 

[MntnMan62]

I’ve recently gone on a snare buying binge, having acquired a 5.5” Pearl Sensitone COS, a 3”x13” Pearl brass piccolo and a 6.5” Pearl Masters MCT maple snare. I find they eqch have very distinctive sounds. And not to be satisfied with this stable, I am actively pursuing a 6.5” Pearl Sensitone if I can find one in good condition and for a bargain. But I’m enjoying the variety which for me is a departure from the last 50 years where I essentially was limited to the snare that came with my first kit (still have it and use it), a Slingerland Stage Band 6 lug 5.5”. I have never been happy with it because I never felt I could get that “thwack” I was looking for from it. Also surprising that it took me so long to find buy something different.

 

[rungeflash]

I love that you've set up these drums and tried to tune them the same to actually conduct this experiment. Most people just parrot the information they heard/read and often do so with fear of buyer's remorse (how can I justify this drum if it sounds like that drum?). And again, every aspect of these two drums from our episode was different with the exception of the general diameter (14") and the snare side head (Snare Side 300). But it's entirely common for people to focus on the shell- whether it's the material or the thickness or the shape, etc. In reality, all of these design elements affect performance to varying degrees.

And to be fair, that’s a fairly radical comparison as far as a thickness difference. Vast majority of wood shells will be much closer I would think.

 

[striker]

It's really interesting how many people fixated on the title and cover image and just skipped over all of the context and the real point of this video (not so much on this thread but particularly in the comments section of the video).


Absolutely! Just like people tend to judge a video by the title and cover image alone without grasping the full context.


Perfect example- have you tried doing this comparison? Have you tried to make them sound the same? Because what we did in the video took a few minutes and we ran with it. We could have spent another 10-15 really dialing it in but that's still not the point. It may be challenging but it is quite possible if you take advantage of all that can be controlled and are willing to think beyond the imaginary boundaries that are established to sell more drums.

In the end, these were three of the main takeaways:

1. There's a massive amount of crossover between any two drums, regardless of the build details. Even if you think you can hear the difference in a back to back comparison when they're both tuned to sound the same, that would never happen in a musical context. And who's to say that the difference being heard wasn't caused by the player with their strike zones or small differences in tuning, or the different heads, or all of the other variables that were inconsistent between the two drums?

2. The player is responsible for the sound, not the drum. The drum establishes a spectrum of options and then player can explore within this vast range. This realization will be liberating to some and terrifying to others (see the people up in arms over this in the comments).

3. When we (the drumming community at large) are provided with information about a drum aside from just it's sound (the appearance, price, specs, etc.) our perception is colored. Some people are so willfully blinded by this that they will get up in arms to defend a range of placebos rather than recognizing how liberating it is to know that WE are the ones in control of the sound we make. This feeds into the gross generalizations that are made in the same way that people talk about metal vs. wood snare drums (which is why we chose to use this as a vehicle for the narrative we wanted to share).

While some people thought this was a comparison or challenge to see who could hear the difference...it really wasn't. We set a bit of a trap with this one to showcase and make a point that we knew most people wouldn't get. There wasn't any malicious intent but we knew there would be some people who would get all high and mighty about this sort of thin. We didn't make this video for them. We made the video for the open minded, free-thinking individuals who are willing to break down preconceived notes and approach the possibilities of these instruments through experience rather than marketing and groupthink.

I am now on the road travelling otherwise, I would have written a much longer reply.

I notice that you seem to be very sensitive about your clips on YouTube. Do this. Keep making clips for the open minded and free thinking people only!!! Adios Amigo.