Ginger Baker

i had the semi-pleasure of seeing him play with his african jazz band near my hometown, a good player, dont get me wrong, but his reputation as a horrible human was well earned, he was grouchy to the maximum, refused to see anyone apart from his entourage, and reluctantly gave out autographs.

ive heard his son kofi is the polar opposite, hes said to be a humble and nice person to talk to, never met him so unsure how true this is.
 
Ginger Baker's difficult personality has long fascinated me. The thing I find so interesting is his ability to remain such a huge success while behaving so poorly.

In my experience, people who have risen to the top of their field are genuinely NICE. The best examples I encountered were actually US Army generals. You'd be surprised how personable these guys and gals can be one-on-one. Same goes with a few self-made multi-millionaires I've met. No matter what career you undertake, you make it 10 times harder on yourself by being mean.

I guess Ginger Baker blew my theory out of the water as he was just SO good that everyone just put up with his behavior.
 
i don't think (...) he was always that way/ something changed/ along's the ways..
Like up to and including in, Blind Faith, I don't think he was a big meanie..
look at that cover picture; he was a smiling chum.
remember those pics:
 
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He wanted to be left alone ,didn't care for journalists or the straight world they represented . He wasn't a pseudo bad boy , but the real thing and some people can't handle that . He let his drums do the talking and they told a fascinating story .

A great part of his life was spent walking a crooked mile in the carnivorous labyrinth of narcotics . What's the matter with people who expected him to act " normal " ? He was his own PR man and successfully kept the world at a distance .
 
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He wanted to be left alone didn't care for journalists or the straight world they represented . He wasn't a pseudo bad boy , he was the real thing ,people can't handle that . He let his drums do the talking and they told a fascinating story .

He spent a great part of his life walking a crooked mile in the carnivorous labyrinth of heroin addiction . What's the matter with people who expected him to act " normal " ? He was his own PR man and successfully kept the world at a distance .

You make some excellent points, a few that I didn't consider. It's very possible that his rough exterior was a veneer caused by the stresses of fame. Drug use is another sad possibility.

The deceased gentleman who used to own our house was "famous" for being a mean old man. Even his adult children who we purchased the place from had nothing good to say about him. Over the years of living here, we've gotten to learn more about him through photos, paperwork and possessions left behind as well as through stories from various people who knew him.

In a nutshell, we've discovered the guy was warm, kind and generous. He loved animals and deer would literally eat out of his hand. He accumulated much wealth throughout his life and donated most of it to charitable organizations. Later in life his wife became very ill and spent years caring for her before she passed. I'm guessing Ginger may have been a little bit like this. Among close friends and family, he may have been a different guy.
 
The thing I find so interesting is his ability to remain such a huge success while behaving so poorly.
I mean...was he able to, though? Don't get me wrong, he had the kind of success that all but a small handful of musicians ever could only dream of. But it's almost entirely predicated upon those two years when he was in his 20s and in a band with--love him or hate him--a guy who went on to become one of the most successful pop musicians of the century. So as with so much other stuff, success is or can be relative and context and perspective are vital. But...

After Cream (and Blind Faith, again with that guy), he had an at best journeyman career. How many copies of his Air Force recordings have been sold this century? What percentage of rock fans have even ever heard of it, never mind actually heard it?
He did some work with PIL which was cool.
He got to play with Fela Kuti, which is beyond cool.
He had a trio with Charlie Haden and Bill Frisell, which blows my mind.

But you'll notice that all these, and his other projects, rarely lasted more than 18 months, if that. For 51 years after Cream broke up, the guy couldn't find anyone to play with for more than a year or two at most. And, as you said, given his monstrous talent, that's not what I'd call a huge success.

Again, I'm just some dude on the internet who hasn't even played in a bar in decades, and he was world-famous. He had a documentary made about him. Famous drummers sang his praises. And anyone who had the kind of success Cream had for even that brief period's got nothing more to prove.

Except it sure seems like, looking at his career, he kept trying to capture that kind of magic again and never came even remotely close. And you know what? Looking at the level of talent with whom he played? I'm pretty sure that it's because he behaved so poorly. Because he was such a total jerk.

I obviously have no way of really knowing, but I'd be very surprised if in his best year after 1970, say, other than the brief Cream reunion, he ever made half of what, say, Steve Gadd or Jeff Porcaro or Vinnie Colaiuta or Simon Phillips or Jim Keltner or Kenny Aronoff made in their worst year.


What's the matter with people who expected him to act " normal " ?
I don't know that anyone ever expected him to act "normal." I think most people who knew anything about him whatsoever knew that was an unrealistic ask. But I also think most people expect most people to simply not act like a complete and total jerk. And more than his command of polyrhythms or whatever, that was absolutely his defining characteristic.

He wanted to be left alone didn't care for journalists or the straight world they represented . He wasn't a pseudo bad boy , he was the real thing ,people can't handle that . He let his drums do the talking and they told a fascinating story .
As the song goes, you say tomato, I say complete and total jerk.

I'm guessing Ginger may have been a little bit like this. Among close friends and family, he may have been a different guy.
That would be nice. But--and I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, I've read and watched the same stuff that most of us have--there seems to be little to no actual evidence for that, and oh so much very much to the contrary.

People are complex. And no one knows the struggles others are going through. But as Maya Angelou said, "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time." From all available evidence, I think Ginger would have been unhappy about attempts to portray him as simply a tortured or misunderstood soul. I think he liked having the reputation of a complete and total jerk. Goodness knows his behavior suggests it.
 
(and Blind Faith, again with that guy)
One objection to that statement. I believe/think Blind Faith was more Steve Winwoods band and Clapton along with Baker were equally sideman.
but carry on.. (I loved Blind Faith.
It sure seemed like Steve was the leader in that outdoor video
 
hm Never saw this Clips of Eric Clapton &Friends a Tribute To Ginger Baker
Eventim Apollo, Hammersmith - London 17 February 2020

 
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Tracklist
00:00:00 01. Introduction movie
00:04:24 02. Sunshine of Your Love - with Roger Waters
00:10:50 03. Strange Brew - with Roger Waters
00:16:05 04. White Room - with Ronnie Wood, Kenney Jones and Roger Waters
00:22.50 05. I Feel Free - with Nile Rodgers, Willie Weeks and Paul Carrack
00:26:25 06. Tales Of Brave Ulysses - with Nile Rodgers and Willie Weeks
00:31:24 07. Sweet Wine - with Will Johns and Paul Carrack
00:36:19 08. Blue Condition
00:42:43 09. Badge - with Ronnie Wood and Henry Spinetti
00:49:36 10. Pressed Rat - with Kofi Baker
00:54:45 11. Had To Cry Today - with Steve Winwood, Kofi Baker and Nile Rodgers
01:02:25 12. Presence Of The Lord - with Steve Winwood, Kofi Baker and Nile Rodgers
01:08:12 13. Well Alright - with Steve Winwood, Kofi Baker and Nile Rodgers
01:13:42 14. Can't Find My Way Home - with Steve Winwood, Kofi Baker and Nile Rodgers
01:19:20 15. Do What You Like / Toad - with Steve Winwood, Kofi Baker and Nile Rodgers
01:32:15 16. Crossroads - Everyone including Roger Waters on cowbell
01:40:00 17. Outro including Nile Rodgers trying to encorage 2nd encore

White Room:
3 drummers
~~~~~
There's some Gems in there Check "Had To Cry" with Stevie Winwood. : ) Gadd playing thunder rock ; )

"Presence Of The Lord" kills.. : )
Great set list of Songs
Sonny Emory and gadd kicking it
 
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Got a DVD with Ginger doing Witches dancing and another tune from Masters of Reality. He comes up with thee most interesting patterns that just grooves beyond what you'd imagine. Simple parts but like Ringo you'd never think to play like Ginger on Creams Badge in the section where it stops and George Harrison? plays a simple lead reintro with the coolest fill by Ginger. This will sound odd but personally I'd rather play like Ginger than Thomas Lang.
 
But you'll notice that all these, and his other projects, rarely lasted more than 18 months, if that. For 51 years after Cream broke up, the guy couldn't find anyone to play with for more than a year or two at most. And, as you said, given his monstrous talent, that's not what I'd call a huge success.

Good observation. This is kinda what I see down at the level of local bar bands... the world I live in. :) Musicians with difficult personalities don't usually last long. I'd say maybe 6 months to a year.

In my experience, you can pretty much tell in the first meeting whether or not someone is a jerk. Those personality quirks become more pronounced over time once the initial honeymoon is over. Most of the time, personality problems don't really become a problem until you start gigging. Having to haul equipment at 2 AM, having to cooperate with 4 other guys and having to comply with a rigid time schedule makes jerks behave like jerks.

We're all imperfect human beings and we have to tolerate a certain level of imperfection from fellow band members. Musicians whose poor behavior rises above what others are willing to accept become unemployed quickly. Word spreads. Nobody wants them.
 
He played on some the greatest "rock" tracks ever; See the partial list
above in post #109. Had a great Rock/African (not to confused with jazz) Mixture. feel. Recorded. On record. Since about 1966.

Actually he may have defined Rock drumming for Generations up to today.
The Fills.
African. Afro beat. Not American jazz. But African. See the difference? Know the difference (If not spend a few minutes listening to "Tony Allen" .
digga dit
digga dit,
digga dit.
Is/was African. Ginger (in contrast with Tony Allen) did it "in time" )
And he played it/ used it/ in time/ maybe first
and It's still (those fills) in use with drummers today
 
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I believe/think Blind Faith was more Steve Winwoods band and Clapton along with Baker were equally sideman.
but carry on.. (I loved Blind Faith.
It sure seemed like Steve was the leader in that outdoor video
Blind Faith was absolutely more Winwood's band. From what I've read, though, that's because Ginger invited himself to join the band, and Winwood--who'd never been in a band with Baker--loved the idea, in stark contrast to how Clapton felt about it. And although they went on to record the one album and did a brief tour, Baker's joining is when Clapton lost most of his interest in Blind Faith. He'd just escaped a band with Baker and now here he was back in the situation again, albeit with presumably much less fighting due to Jack Bruce not being there.

(Yes, he also fell in love with the Delaney and Bonnie sound around then.)

But when you look at Clapton's pre-Blind Faith work and his post-Blind Faith work, it's pretty clear that — even accounting for how massively talented Steve Winwood was and is — Clapton has less emotional or technical or musical involvement than pretty much anything since recording "For Your Love." And Ginger Baker being there is very clearly, to my mind, the major reason he checked out. He'd played with Baker. He didn't want to anymore. A pattern we see throughout Baker's entire life.

It's perhaps also worth noting that upon Blind Faith crumbling, Winwood joined Ginger Baker's Air Force and stayed for all of three months. Later, when Jim Capaldi stopped playing drums and Traffic therefore needed a new drummer, Winwood chose two guys, neither of whom was Ginger Baker. Now, obviously, at that point in time, if you had a chance to hire Jim Gordon, you hired Jim Gordon. But when Gordon left, he hired Roger Hawkins. Which, again, who wouldn't want to play with Roger Hawkins? (Although I've always thought Roger Hawkins with Traffic is a weird, weird, weird idea. But, hey, it worked!) But it's pretty clear that Winwood, too, was done with being in a collaborative artistic endeavor with Ginger Baker.

There are a lot of famous musicians throughout the years who are famous for being difficult, prickly, problematic, even just plain assholes. The majority of the most famous ones--I'm not going to name them here but I'm guessing most of us can think of at least a handful--nevertheless had little problem attracting top-notch collaborators, if their talent was sufficiently high to make it worth their fellow artists' whiles. Ginger Baker is a petty notable exception.
 
Speaking of Ginger Baker, I saw his son Kofi Baker perform as "Cream Faith" on Thursday at a local bistro club. Kofi does a lot to 'continue his father's legacy.'

I was sad only 70 advance tickets sold with fewer than 100 attending. This was the far north exurbs of Denver, Colorado. The band had three other local dates, but one is 40 miles and another 100 miles. Much less turnout than I expected. Several audience members said they saw the original bands "back when."

I don't know Cream or Blind Faith beyond the classic hits, but Kofi Baker's drumming was extremely good, with fantastic limb independence and technical prowess. He knows the complex material well. Guitar and bass players were rock-solid performers, too. A slightly muddy sound mix hurt the vocals, but covering Steve Winwood is pretty big shoes to fill!

Kofi's big drum set was a gorgeous silver sparkle with four up and one down. Looked like 8, 10, 12, and 14, with an 18? floor tom? Kick drums were 20 and 24? Cymbals were mostly Zildjian Ks. What is the "III" drum brand?

His technique was extremely impressive (at least to me). Lots of simultaneous hihat and smaller kick drum, working both right pedals with one foot, sometimes separately. Heel up, with a very straight leg. I loved that he tucked his bell bottoms into his socks! Interestingly, he played eyes closed much of the time.

Kofi told family stories in between songs. I talked a little with him during intermission, and he was very conversational and friendly. Clearly, he knows his father's reputation and doesn't behave the same way. We all have complex relationships with our fathers, especially after their deaths, but, man, his growing up and family experience had to be really, really, really something!

I'm very glad I got to see this performance, though at times it felt more like a history clinic than a performance. Here are some pictures.

PXL_20231006_022449575.MP.jpg

PXL_20231006_022459650.jpg
PXL_20231006_022651177.jpg

PXL_20231006_022855547.MP.jpg
 
the III set also is in the Ginger Tribute Kofi tracks 10-15 post #109 above
and Maybe Bill Ludwig III ?
@MazdaRex
"true Ludwig's"
 
They have just posted two exact copies of this interview on the "Rock History Music" channel. I am posting both in case they decide to delete one of the copies. It has an interview with Malcolm Bruce son of late Jack Bruce who was the base player for Cream.

Legendary Cream Drummer Ginger Baker had the "Consistency of inconsistency"



 
He did a lot of good things for various associates thru the decades and was screwed over big time by them. On the other hand, a poor family man.
Took your life in your hands if you were driven around by him!
Still, I loved most of his playing. His identity was always there to hear. I could sense the urgency in his solo on "Camels and Elephants" with Graham Bond.
Long live Peter, warts and all!
 
i don't think (...) he was always that way/ something changed/ along's the ways..
Like up to and including in, Blind Faith, I don't think he was a big meanie..
look at that cover picture; he was a smiling chum.
remember those pics:
Reading his autobiography was sad for me. A young Peter chasing after his father leaving on the train going to war and he never returned. Being carved up by razor blades by the school bullies. Being screwed over by many people thru the decades. Enough to make anyone bitter and mean.
No, he was no angel either. Jeez! What a life...
 
i had the semi-pleasure of seeing him play with his african jazz band near my hometown, a good player, dont get me wrong, but his reputation as a horrible human was well earned, he was grouchy to the maximum, refused to see anyone apart from his entourage, and reluctantly gave out autographs.

ive heard his son kofi is the polar opposite, hes said to be a humble and nice person to talk to, never met him so unsure how true this is.
I’ve talked to Kofi online a few times and he seems very pleasant to me.
 
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