Drum Shields??

[McNeil Pro Drumming]

I think the sheilds' effectiveness at helping control the mix has been pointed out.

There seems to be an auto-resist mode that a lot of drummers have regarding sound guys. I don't know exactly where that comes from, and I'm sure my guesses will only stir the pot.

Drummers do not know how they sound out front, any more than any other player can know how their instrument affects the mix out front. Unless they physically walk out to the sound board with their instrument on a wireless, so they can hear it. I've never seen or heard of a drummer who can do that. But with an instrument that generates a full frequency range - from sub-kick tones to cymbal harmonics - they tend to complain the most, with no real basis of the FOH issues that may be occurring, such as cymbals bleeing into vocal mics. The person running sound is in a much better position to know what the kit sounds like than the drummer himself. I know that's a discussion that's been made other times, and I don't want to open that specific can of worms here.

But what I'm trying to say is that this resistance to shields would be considered laughable in the real world. You'd be replaced pdq with a team player with less of a selfish, egotistical attitude.

But don't accept shields simply out of fear of losing a gig. Do it because you understand that they won't affect what you do behind the kit. Because you understand that the FOH person knows how your drums affect other players and the mix, and you don't. Do it because some of the top pros in the business do it without squawking (I've never heard a pro complain about shields!)

Or, my favorite reason: because someone else gets to pay for them and keep them clean!

BTW, I never did get my shields. If they show up one day, that's fine. If not, that's fine. My gig is playing drums, not making things difficult for the sound guy or the other players.

Bermuda

Hi Bermuda,

You mentioned the knee jerk reaction of drummers to shields and I have to agree. As I have mentioned in a couple of posts now, as long as there is proper monitoring for everyone on stage, a shield shouldn't be a problem musically speaking (but that applies whether using shields or not). I think the issue with konaboy in particular was that the sound team admitted that a shield wasn't necessary based on the way he plays in the room but they were insisting on using a shield anyways and it wasn't clear why. They were probably trying to prepare for future players who's playing would have a greater negative affect on the mix due to their inability or unwillingness to control their volume. The other issue with konaboy's situation is that all the gear is being run by volunteers who have limited ability to mix the sound and trouble shoot when necessary.

I actually had a question for you on the topic of mic bleed and I'm hoping you can help me out as well as everyone else.

What is the typical pick up pattern for a vocal mic on stage? Is it a cardiod pattern or some other pattern?

I guess that tells us the shape of the pick up pattern but do you know what the pick up distance is for a typical vocal mic? In other words, how far away from other instruments would a vocal mic theoretically need to be before instrument bleed isn't an issue?

Obviously we're not going put a singer 20 feet in front of the stage, but knowing this theoretical distance would help drummers to better appreciate how much their instrument bleeds into other mics when on a typical stage.

I think this info would help everyone to better understand the stage volume vs front of house mix issue and might help calm this debate a bit.

But again, as long as there is appropriate monitoring for everyone on stage the shield is really a non issue musically speaking.

 

[bermuda]

What is the typical pick up pattern for a vocal mic on stage? Is it a cardiod pattern or some other pattern?

I guess that tells us the shape of the pick up pattern but do you know what the pick up distance is for a typical vocal mic? In other words, how far away from other instruments would a vocal mic theoretically need to be before instrument bleed isn't an issue?

Onstage with Al, I don't know for sure what the guys are singing into, but I'd guess they're directional to help avoid feedback.

The specific problem with our setup is that the guitar player is in front of me, usually 20' or more, and my cymbals come through his mic pretty hard. Between using APX Solids and playing hard, apparently my underheads aren't on in most theaters! So reducing that direct sound from them has been a goal for a few years, and changing my style or gear are not options on that gig. So shields have been mentioned a few times, and the idea was to have the promoter provide them at each venue so we didn't have to worry about keeping one set clean during a tour. Alas, I haven't seen them yet.

Bermuda

 

[McNeil Pro Drumming]

Hi Bermuda,

Thanks for the info! Cheers

 

[MrPockets]

You could also hang air fresheners on your side so when the person in front of you drops a smelly fart the rotten egg smell bounces back to him and your area behind the shield smells like fresh pine needles.

 

[Kg_lee]

Well, I had my first experience with the drum shield last night. Still don't get the point of it. I also got the point of view from the sound guy and after hearing his mix it was obvious he has not a clue how to run sound. But I did find out they use the shield for mic bleed which is just stupid. Really what does it matter? It doesn't matter where your at on stage if there is a open mic your going to have bleed, it's the nature of how it works. Now here's the best part! They have 4000 watts of stage monitors why? So I'm playing behind a shield which is a disconnect from the band to have our heads ripped off by monitors (which are also feeding more junk into the open mic's on stage.) I can't really say if shields are bad or not but in the situation I was in it's apparent they have not a clue what they are doing.

 

[bermuda]

But I did find out they use the shield for mic bleed which is just stupid. Really what does it matter? It doesn't matter where your at on stage if there is a open mic your going to have bleed, it's the nature of how it works.

There are a number of problems that arise from the standpoint of "it's the nature of how it works". Does that mean that they shouldn't be corrected if possible?

Controlling mic bleed between rack 1 & 2 may seem stupid, but keeping unwanted sounds out of a vocal mic (for example) would be very important if you were the one trying to hear yourself singing through that mic.

It's the sound people's job to make things sound good for everyone, not just the audience. And a drummer needs to be willing to make adjustments if what they do adversely affects someone else onstage (and/or the mix out front.)

At least that's what the pros - and people who want to be pros - do.

I can't really say if shields are bad or not but in the situation I was in it's apparent they have not a clue what they are doing.

If the audio crew was experienced and got everything right in your opinion, would the shields then have been acceptable?

Bermuda

 

[Kg_lee]

There are a number of problems that arise from the standpoint of "it's the nature of how it works". Does that mean that they shouldn't be corrected if possible?

Controlling mic bleed between rack 1 & 2 may seem stupid, but keeping unwanted sounds out of a vocal mic (for example) would be very important if you were the one trying to hear yourself singing through that mic.

It's the sound people's job to make things sound good for everyone, not just the audience. And a drummer needs to be willing to make adjustments if what they do adversely affects someone else onstage (and/or the mix out front.)

At least that's what the pros - and people who want to be pros - do.



If the audio crew was experienced and got everything right in your opinion, would the shields then have been acceptable?

Bermuda

I believe these sound issues should not be corrected. The shield causes more problems than trying to correct mic bleed. My band mates even said it sucked, there is no connection between any of us. I don't know about you but when I play I like to feed off the others to lock things down. The shield made this barrier which only forced everyone to put what they couldn't hear in the monitor. So instead of dealing with bleed I guess it's ok to pump those same sounds out of the monitor right back into the mic? GREAT IDEA!! So the shield corrected nothing. The key is listen to whats coming out the mains, does it sound good? Bands have been dealing with mic bleed for years it's also live music we're not in the studio. And as long as I've been doing this I've always been taught to work with your sound guy, I just can't bring myself to work with one who has not a clue what he is doing.

 

[bermuda]

And as long as I've been doing this I've always been taught to work with your sound guy, I just can't bring myself to work with one who has not a clue what he is doing.

And my question was, if he knows what he's doing, do you still fight him on the shield?

Bermuda

 

[Kg_lee]

And my question was, if he knows what he's doing, do you still fight him on the shield?

Bermuda

Yes I should fight him. It's my preference as a musician not to be isolated from the band and it's also my preference not to be blown away by a monitor. I usually don't ever need a monitor even on a big stage. I like to hear whats going on around me naturally. He fixed nothing by using the shield and fed all those sounds he was trying to isolate out of the monitors right back into the mic's. I've been playing in bands 27 years and not to mention played arena's and some of the largest clubs in the U.S. and never once had to deal with this. Why should I deal with it now, if it was a problem how come it wasn't fixed in my 27 years?

 

[Chunky]

I understand from the sound guyss view wanting to get the best sound but, with good use of compression and sound gates bleed really shouldn't be too much of a problem, not when everyone is playing.
If the drums are just way too loud then how about a switch to hot rods if it's a quiet gig?
Also if they must have quite a bit of gear to warrajt sound walls so if they have all that gear why not just give the singer some more juice in the monitor?

 

[bermuda]

Also if they must have quite a bit of gear to warrajt sound walls so if they have all that gear why not just give the singer some more juice in the monitor?

There may be an issue of stage volume competing with FOH. Obviously it depends on the venue, but as a rule a band should not be overplaying the room in the first place.

Also, in my case, it's not a question oif the singer not hearing enough of himself, it's my cymbals coming through too loud.

If the drums are just way too loud then how about a switch to hot rods if it's a quiet gig?

Although that's not applicable on the Al gig, by the same logic one might ask that I change my playing styles or my cymbals. While I am agreeable to a point, I would sooner welcome shields if they permit me to play the way I want to play. They won't confine me, they'll let me be me.

Bermuda

 

[bermuda]

Yes I should fight him. It's my preference as a musician not to be isolated from the band and it's also my preference not to be blown away by a monitor. I usually don't ever need a monitor even on a big stage. I like to hear whats going on around me naturally. He fixed nothing by using the shield and fed all those sounds he was trying to isolate out of the monitors right back into the mic's.

It sounds like you indeed had a sound guy who didn't handle things properly. Obviously (and hopefully) not every gig is like that.

I've been playing in bands 27 years and not to mention played arena's and some of the largest clubs in the U.S. and never once had to deal with this. Why should I deal with it now, if it was a problem how come it wasn't fixed in my 27 years?

A lot of things only get fixed eventually, and not when they're first determined to be a problem. To say something's been fine all those years may simply mean that everyone's been tolerant until a solution could be found.

I've been playing a bit longer than 27 years, and never had to deal with it either. But when it was presented to me, I said "okay, just make sure they stay clean so I can be seen." Also in my case, there's no disconnect, because just about everyone's in-ear and there's not an abundance of stage volume in the first place. But relying on a monitor to hear what I need - and I did that for many, many years - is no big deal. It doesn't change the way I play at all.

I guess that's what I'm trying to get across, is that shields keep the drummer from having to change the way he plays. I see it as a plus, where the alternative is to change the playing style, or be replaced with a more agreeable drummer. Of course that never happens!

Bermuda

 

[Chunky]

Depending on the setting I think I'd rather take the sheilds than having to use rods. I just in alot of cases a drummer is palmed off instead of say, changing the layout of the amps, speakers or mics. The drummer seems to take the brunt of everything. Try putting a guitarist in a see-through box and see how they react!

Like I said before I think clever angling of equipment and use of conpressions, gates and EQ's should be able to deal with these problems in most cases but, the quiet drummer takes the brunt of alot of sound guy's lack of talent.

 

[bermuda]

Depending on the setting I think I'd rather take the sheilds than having to use rods. I just in alot of cases a drummer is palmed off instead of say, changing the layout of the amps, speakers or mics. The drummer seems to take the brunt of everything. Try putting a guitarist in a see-through box and see how they react!

The difference is, guitar/bass/keyboardists can simply turn their amps down, and continue playing normally with the same sound. Oh, they say it's different, but with filters and stomp boxes and modeling, the resulting sound is the same whether it's loud or soft or in-between.

But with drums, changing the volume means changing the playing style, so that the feel and especially the sound is also changed. Rods are fine, but they shouldn't be mistaken for quiet sticks. They make a different sound, and are only potentially quieter than sticks. They can be pretty loud on their own.

So agreed, I would much rather preserve my personal playing style, feel and sound, than try to control my volume by sacrificing those things that make me me.

The more a drummer insists on doing things his way, the more he should welcome shields if they're presented. He can be both agreeable and selfish at the same time. Win win!!

Bermuda

 

[Chunky]

You make a good point!

 

[SOGdrummer]

Play behind them, play without them...really not that big a deal depending on the venue. Then again playing behind clear plastic shields is a lot better protection from bar fights than chicken wire cages...done that too! The wire stops the bottle but not the beer...

Agree with Bermuda, just be glad to have the chance to play!

 

[Chunky]

Haha true! I got hit on the bridge of the nose with a 2pence piece. Made my skull resonate!

 

[B-squared]

I will resurrect this old thread to ask a question. After reading Bermuda's posts below, I am beginning to think some drum shields might be a worthy investment. Here is my situation:

We are going to play a room I've played in before and I know it's really "tinny". I have played the room with a small jazz quartet, but my current band is a lot more amplified. Bermuda is absolutely correct in his post about rods, lighter sticks, and guitar amps. I have been in that situation thousands of time and it has never worked. We always get noise complaints when I attempt to play rooms like this. Basically, I just stopped playing these kinds of venues, but this time, the request is from the club's new owner, who is a business acquaintance who I consider a friend. So obviously, my question is: "Should I invest in drum shields?"

If I do, I am going to have to fend off my band members wanting me to use them everywhere. Like all players of amplified instruments, they always assume that the drums are the source of all noise complaints. We have a trumpet player using a bell mike who could drown out anything I am playing, but I digress. So what do you all think? Is it worth it? Can I just "forget" them when they aren't needed?

 

[jfpen]

I understand from the sound guyss view wanting to get the best sound but, with good use of compression and sound gates bleed really shouldn't be too much of a problem, not when everyone is playing.
If the drums are just way too loud then how about a switch to hot rods if it's a quiet gig?
Also if they must have quite a bit of gear to warrajt sound walls so if they have all that gear why not just give the singer some more juice in the monitor?

Chunky,
Gates and compressors have their role in a mix. However, the real problem is that the loudest sound at the mic wins. Meaning that if the snare or cymbals are loud at the lead vocalists mic, bringing up the level of that mic simply increases the volume of snare or cymbals also.

Here is a pic of Kenny Aronoff using a drum shield while playing with John Fogarty.

-JP

 

[Milt Hathaway]

Chunky,
Gates and compressors have their role in a mix. However, the real problem is that the loudest sound at the mic wins. Meaning that if the snare or cymbals are loud at the lead vocalists mic, bringing up the level of that mic simply increases the volume of snare or cymbals also.

Here is a pic of Kenny Aronoff using a drum shield while playing with John Fogarty.

-JP

Exactly. Notice the angles of all the guitar amps too. The drummer is not the only one on stage doing what is best for the sound of the show in general.