Double pedals = 1/2 the drummer?

Pollyanna said:
Hehehe, consider yourself excused :) I probably should have said "new metal" but I'm not too up with that scene.

As I said before, no drama from this end with double pedal or any other technique. I just like to hear variety, originality and dynamics. Take Meshuggah, for example. That Tomas Haake guy is brilliant ... amazing drummer ... but he and his band just give me a headache.
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My friends have this 'funny' tradition to always start the next morning after a party with Meshuggah - Straws Pulled At Random (or Spasm) played very loudly. Imagine hearing that when you wake up with a hungover, having slept a good several hours on concrete floor or something similar. =P Ahhh, good times.
 
JPW said:
My friends have this 'funny' tradition to always start the next morning after a party with Meshuggah - Straws Pulled At Random (or Spasm) played very loudly. Imagine hearing that when you wake up with a hungover, having slept a good several hours on concrete floor or something similar. =P Ahhh, good times.
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lol ... madness! That kind of thing calls to mind the hair shirts as used by hardcore Catholics back in the middle ages. Let me guess, you guys felt the need to suffer to atone you of your sins :)

I can't remember what I listened to when I woke up after a hard night back in the days when I had a hard night. I suspect that the hardness of the night had a bit to do with the lack of memory ...
 
Pollyanna said:
lol ... madness! That kind of thing calls to mind the hair shirts as used by hardcore Catholics back in the middle ages. Let me guess, you guys felt the need to suffer to atone you of your sins :)

I can't remember what I listened to when I woke up after a hard night back in the days when I had a hard night. I suspect that the hardness of the night had a bit to do with the lack of memory ...
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Heh, I don't know. Maybe it's just a 'scene' thing. We can find humour in our own suffering I guess. =P It's always fun to watch people's faces when they start to slowly wake up and understand what woke them up - again. =P
 
JPW said:
Heh, I don't know. Maybe it's just a 'scene' thing. We can find humour in our own suffering I guess. =P It's always fun to watch people's faces when they start to slowly wake up and understand what woke them up - again. =P
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I'd played some pretty heavy music in my younger days but I can't even imagine what it would be like to be hungover and waking up to Meshuggah at full blast. It should be covered under the Geneva Convention!
 
JPW said:
Heh, I don't know. Maybe it's just a 'scene' thing. We can find humour in our own suffering I guess. =P It's always fun to watch people's faces when they start to slowly wake up and understand what woke them up - again. =P
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i guess people are different .. i'd actually feel good waking up with a hangover to the sounds of nile ... though someone would die if i was woken by a stereo with a subwoofer thudding away to some rap music
 
keep it simple said:
Outside of Metal (necessary evil) & ex true double kick drum players, are double pedals primarily used by guys who simply have poor pedal technique? I know I'm guilty of that to some degree (although I did used to play a double kick kit). More importantly, does the prolonged use of double pedals make for really bad single kick technique? I find (like so many I suspect) double stroke on a single kick really arkward to get convincingly right every time, yet even when less than perfect, it's so much more organic. The lazy double kick pedal version is oh so mechanical by comparison. That natural ghosting is gone. Anyhow, double kick pedal, 1/2 the player?
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Here's the thing...Minnemann, Donati, Lang. Would they be half as famous or half as good if there was no such thing as a double pedal or if they didn't use two bass drums? I don't really recognize anyone they really play music with and they are obviously really known for their amazing technical prowess which the double pedal is a huge part of.
But then you have Billy Ward who also uses a double pedal, albeit in a different way than the others mentioned, who has married musicality and technique in such an amazing way in a more jazz context.

Then you have a bunch of great drummer's who play with a single pedal...I guess where I am trying to get at is the only limit to what you can do, is yourself. It's might be necessary in some musical situations such as metal, but it's not limited strictly too it ( or doesn't have to be). Depends on what type of drummer you want to be. In the end it's about creativity. Unfortunately today "speed=talent" to many spectators in music, but the point is to find your own voice.
 
Hey Crew,

Just my 2 cents....

I started taking lessons at age 10 (I'm 52 now) and double pedals weren't even a dream back then. I got pretty damn good with a single bass pedal by the time I was 16, and was in 2 (gigging) bands back in that day.

Jump ahead about 40 years, and I just got my first double pedals, what- a year or so ago? Now (even at my age) I have learned that they're a HELLUVA asset, and (if you saw my recent post about the 3-pedal setup and technique) I've taken it even farther than that--two bass drums and 3 pedals. I only bring ONE bass to most gigs with the double pedal, tho.

In my humble opinion, add what you feel you need as you go along in your drumming expertise, and figure our what's useable, and what's just "flash". It's totally up to the individual drummer- what fits who, and who fits what.

It's like the Gene Krupa vid from long ago- I saw he was using TWO pairs of sticks to do a solo- NOT effective, but it really wowed the audience. I saw another vid of him playing only one bass drum, snare, and one tom, 2 cymbals, and he smoked the living hell out of it.

To each their own, I'd say.

Cheers,
C. P.
 
I've not read anything apart from your first post. There is far more to double pedals than you seem to think. It is an art form within itself (paradidles on the feet for example)
 
Polly, I'm shocked that you'd say metal is a young peoples' game. Bill ward is still an amazing metal drummer at the 62 years young. I think there's a bit more physicality involved but I've seen some great clips of Buddy Rich playing crazy fills in his later years while wearing a 3 piece suit...wow.

My take on it is that a double is frequently used to compensate (badly) for a slow right foot. When I joined my first band playing drums, with years of playing guitar under my belt, I made a conscious decision to avoid a double kick completely. The result is more involved hi-hattery and a faster right foot.

As a metal cat I can say that I really do love the sound of a chugging double kick. To go back to Polly's spice analogy I would assert that metal is like Jamaican or Thai cooking where a prominent chili taste makes up the primary flavor of a dish. A heavy bottom end forms the basis for metal, then from there it's really up to whatever you like.
 
Red Menace said:
Polly, I'm shocked that you'd say metal is a young peoples' game. Bill ward is still an amazing metal drummer at the 62 years young. I think there's a bit more physicality involved but I've seen some great clips of Buddy Rich playing crazy fills in his later years while wearing a 3 piece suit...wow.
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Actually Red, I said it's a young man's game. Some young women play it but I've never met a middle-aged female metalhead, ever. Later on in that post I said:

The drumming is so intense and aggressive it's surely only for the young, the super fit and/or lifelong metal tragics.

Bill Ward definitely fits in the latter group :)

Is Bill still playing the same style as he did when he was young or has he updated to the new double-kick metal? I always liked Bill's playing with the old Sabs. I think his style would be called rock drumming rather than metal drumming these days, wouldn't it? (even though he is one of metal's godfathers). I read an interview of his where he said he'd just hit any old thing, just as long as it was in time. The man's a renegade :)
 
Ah, fair enough. I'd say that metal as a whole is predominately a man's game which I'd say is a bit disappointing. I've only even had one female drummer in a group, they're like unicorns. The bulk of female musicians I've found are singers.

My singer is actually female and plays the hell out of of a piano, her dad taught her to play the drums also aaand my lady and I are starting a metal band and we're hoping to find another guitar guitar that's females so we can have a nice half and half ratio. It keeps us guys leveled.

I'm not too read up on Bill's newer stuff but I did have the extreme pleasure of seeing him and the late great Dio come live with Heaven and Hell. He's really not really a metal player by today's standards but damn can he play. He has 2 kick drums but I suppose he only uses them for fills and solos as was the style in the 70's.
 
Yes, women usually find metal too intense and aggressive. Well, most people do - but the proportions would be higher with women.

When you're young and intense, super intense music hits the spot. As you mellow with age, so does your music taste - apart from a few wild and crazy guys like Bill Ward. His music is too heavy for my tastes but he has a solid groove, good rock chops and great energy. Didn't know he had the twin kicks these days.
 
"These days?" I was looking for an excuse to post this. It's sabbath live in '74. The sound is a bit muddied but I'm pretty sure I hear a driving double kick line during the verse. Go to 2:38 and you can see him working both drums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRhZISswW_k

What I love the most about this is the other people they were preforming with, these angry hippies changed the face of modern music. In Ward's case I'd say that double kick is part of his style and in no way makes him any less of a drummer. Yay metal!!
 
alparrott said:
To end this "Double Bass equals half a drummer" debate FOREVER: I give you Mr. Louie Bellson, who by the way INVENTED the whole idea. Call him half a drummer and I will call you clueless. Honest.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/louiebellson89carnabysolo.html
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...Wow. Put a black t-shirt and some jeans on him and he'd be right at home in a metal band. It all goes to show that most ideas aren't as new as you'd think they are. Damn can that guy play.
 
Pollyanna said:
I wonder if you'll feel the same in 30 years' time, Red? I'd put odds of 10:1 against :)

Yeah Al, the great LB was one helluva metal drummer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFD6M3oSwUs

Some metal rumbling by him from around the 4min mark and he finishes the song with a blast beat lol
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This is the Tonight Show clip that convinced me to stick with the drums! Wonderful! Love ya, Polly!
 
Pollyanna said:
I wonder if you'll feel the same in 30 years' time, Red? I'd put odds of 10:1 against :)
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Lets see, that'll make me 53. My first interests in music were stoked by the enthusiasm of older musicians. My singer and girlfriend's dad is a 50 something year old drummer that still plays metal covers in his band. I've met many a 50 year old metalhead. I'll take that bet Polly. Classic Rock and Metal are in the blood, along with a dulcet Mexican falsetto.
 
alparrott said:
To end this "Double Bass equals half a drummer" debate FOREVER: I give you Mr. Louie Bellson, who by the way INVENTED the whole idea. Call him half a drummer and I will call you clueless. Honest.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/louiebellson89carnabysolo.html
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Al, probably about time I chimed back in. First off, what a great clip of LB. A true master of double bass integration. Double bass is one thing, but double sticks too! That's just showing off (& quite rightly too).

I've always regarded playing a double bass kit as different to double pedal (as in the OP). Not only can two drums exploit the benefits of different tuning, there's also something about the intent of the double bass player. Those two drums really make a statement to me. It's inviting the audience member to expect those bass drums to feature in the main body of the performance.

As for double pedals, I've never said they equal half the drummer, I just posed the question. The answer to me is clear. Double pedals do detract from a drummers skills progression when they're used as a replacement for good single pedal technique. Players that use double pedals, or indeed, two bass drums, as another voice to expand their repertoire are better drummers as a result. With the exception of physical disability assistance, I don't think there's much deviation from that.
 
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