Bad Drums

Mr. Dyck said:
I believe any kit can be made to sound good. I really don't believe the drum material makes as much difference as people like to think. Look at Ludwig's see through kits in the 70's, Tommy Aldridge's carbon fiber kit from Yamaha. Both were made of plastic and with the right heads sound just fine. You can re-cut bearing edges and put on good heads and make them all sing. As for the cheap hardware, it's a non-issue here because it doesn't affect the sound and can also be replaced.
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How is the hardware on drums a non-issue. Hardware can affect the way a drum sounds when it breaks off. Is a Chevy Cavalier a good car if you have to replace the transmission every year, or is it a non-issue simply because it can be replaced. And i don't think acrylic and carbon fiber kits were ever considered cheap my friend. Oh and also, carbon fiber is carbon fiber, not plastic Einstein.
 
Mr. Dyck said:
I believe any kit can be made to sound good. I really don't believe the drum material makes as much difference as people like to think. Look at Ludwig's see through kits in the 70's, Tommy Aldridge's carbon fiber kit from Yamaha. Both were made of plastic and with the right heads sound just fine. You can re-cut bearing edges and put on good heads and make them all sing. As for the cheap hardware, it's a non-issue here because it doesn't affect the sound and can also be replaced.
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So your position is that if you strip the drums down to shells and then replace EVERYTHING with quality hardware, heads, accessories, etc... that you'll have a great sounding drum? That's all well and good, but what's the bloody point?

Nobody in the general public buys their kid a Verve kit planning to replace all the hardware so their kid can get years of enjoyment out of it. They buy it as is and then their kid gets a short amount of time playing before things start to fall apart. No amount of tuning can really help a stripped tom mount. A good snare sound cannot be achieved with a subpar throwoff and strainer. It's tough to get a good tuning with only four lugs. Add to that the abysmal stands, pedals, and *gag* cymbals that go along with these "drum sets"... and you've got bad drums, pure and simple.

Man, I could throw a fantastic engine in a Gremlin, totally trick out the transmission, the shocks, the tires, and everything else... but that wouldn't prove that the Gremlin was in the same league as a Porsche.
 
I never said you had to replace all the hardware, I said it could be replaced.If your going to quote me get it right. I've also seen expensive hardware break so I still feel hardware is a non-issue to the sound. I've heard DW's sound like total shit and I've heard cheap kits sound amazing. It's not my fault that people are not skilled enough as drummers to make a cheap kit sound good. My statement about the carbon fiber and plastic kits was not about price it was about building materials not being a big factor but I guess some are a little too dense to have gotten that.
 
I believe that it's not the kit. I know a local jazz drummer who plays with the Dave Stahl Big Band (Dave used to do a lot of sessions with Buddy Rich & Frank Sinatra) his name is Lou Liebman. He is one of the best big band drummers I have ever heard...& he plays on a 20 year old 4 pc Pearl kit. & it's no masterworks believe me. but he still sounds amazing. Some of it has 2 do with head selection and tuning...but heck....that man just has pure ungodly talent!
 
Mr. Dyck said:
I never said you had to replace all the hardware, I said it could be replaced.If your going to quote me get it right. I've also seen expensive hardware break so I still feel hardware is a non-issue to the sound. I've heard DW's sound like total shit and I've heard cheap kits sound amazing. It's not my fault that people are not skilled enough as drummers to make a cheap kit sound good. My statement about the carbon fiber and plastic kits was not about price it was about building materials not being a big factor but I guess some are a little too dense to have gotten that.
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Ok, first... develop a thick skin. None of this is personal. Also, watch your language. This forum has a high standard, and we'd like to keep it that way.

If you want to call hardware a non-issue, that's fine. I was just pointing out that the majority of people consider the hardware to be a part of the drum. When you think "drum," do you really just think "shell"? If I think about a guitar, I think about the neck, bridge, strings, nut, tuners, pickup, and even the strap buttons. I don't just think about the body, although all of the above could be swapped out to improve any guitar.

Please don't throw around personal attacks. There's no reason to make this anything more than a philosophical discussion.
 
geeza said:
How is the hardware on drums a non-issue. Hardware can affect the way a drum sounds when it breaks off. Is a Chevy Cavalier a good car if you have to replace the transmission every year, or is it a non-issue simply because it can be replaced. And i don't think acrylic and carbon fiber kits were ever considered cheap my friend. Oh and also, carbon fiber is carbon fiber, not plastic Einstein.
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Hardware is one of the things that does indeed affect a drum's sound. First is heads and tuning, then shell type and composition, then hardware. Heavy hardware, shell-length lugs, suspension mounting, die cast vs pressed rims, all of these things have a role in shaping the final sound of a drum, regardless of quality.
 
Deathmetalconga said:
Hardware is one of the things that does indeed affect a drum's sound. First is heads and tuning, then shell type and composition, then hardware. Heavy hardware, shell-length lugs, suspension mounting, die cast vs pressed rims, all of these things have a role in shaping the final sound of a drum, regardless of quality.
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You're preaching to the choir my friend. And as the other respectable member stated, when we speak of the drum, we mean in the complete form thereof , not just a bare shell. There are several factors that make up the drum sound. Hardware just happens to be one of them. So to say it's a non issue by anyone , in my opinion, is ridiculous.
 
So what I'm seeing is that in other's opinion if you change the lugs on a cheap kit to more expensive ones that's going to magically change the sound of the drums? I don't think so. I've had to change lugs a few times on different drums and I haven't always replaced them with the same style or quality and after tuning them back up there was no noticable change in the sound. So I'll stick by my non-issue comment until someone can actually make me believe otherwise.
 
MrDyck. No one ever said if you put good hardware on cheap drums that they'll sound good. And i think our main point was that real cheap drums like CB and the likes of simply won't hold up over time. Others as well as myself simply stated that the quality of a drum has a lot to do with many contributing factors ie. shell composition, quality of lugs and the metals used to make them, quality and craftmanship of the shell itself, weather it's 6 or 8 lugs, how the drum is mounted. These are all things that buyers look for in a quality drum. If you go back and read from where you started chimeing in at, you said you can make any drum sound good and that hardware has nothing to do with the drum sound. And as for bashing others on what kind of drummers they are, i simply say, listen to your own music in your posted link and tell me if that's what good drums sound like.
 
eddiehimself said:
I agree with this, it's similar to the guitar as well, you put a cheap guitar through an expensive amp and some high end recording equipment, no-one would ever know the difference. However it's pretty easy to tell a cheap guitar from a nice one just from looking at it and feeling how it's played (and how well it stays in tune!). It's really the same with the drums. However having said that i can really tell the difference in sound between my new snare and the old one but that's because the old one really was dire.
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nah guitars have things like pickups and coils and all that shit. but that doesnt really reflect cost


as far as drums, theres always disadvantages and advantages.
I was just testing a Tama Superstar hyperdrive and a PDP 805 kit, the latter being a few hundred dollars less. The superstar, being a tama kit, was very solid and had good mounts and hardware whereas the 805 had chipped paint on the rims/legs and had a frustrating suspension mount. the pdp sounded much better though, not because of tuning/heads but due the the tom size and wood specie.
 
geeza said:
MrDyck. No one ever said if you put good hardware on cheap drums that they'll sound good. And i think our main point was that real cheap drums like CB and the likes of simply won't hold up over time. Others as well as myself simply stated that the quality of a drum has a lot to do with many contributing factors ie. shell composition, quality of lugs and the metals used to make them, quality and craftmanship of the shell itself, weather it's 6 or 8 lugs, how the drum is mounted. These are all things that buyers look for in a quality drum. If you go back and read from where you started chimeing in at, you said you can make any drum sound good and that hardware has nothing to do with the drum sound. And as for bashing others on what kind of drummers they are, i simply say, listen to your own music in your posted link and tell me if that's what good drums sound like.
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Funny how you get offended at my comments when it was you who fired the first cheap shots at me and by this last post I see it doesn't seem to matter what I say, you're going to keep making this personal. Funny also that your opinion is the only one that you feel can't be judged. Can you say hypocrite? Now if you would go back and read the first post that started this whole debate you would see this discussion was less about quality and more about the ability to make a cheap kit sound good. If you want to come back with another cheap shot that's up to you.
 
"BOTH of you, pipe down, or I swear to GOD I will turn this car around!!!"

(Seemed to work on me when I was a kid...)
 
Mr. Dyck said:
Funny how you get offended at my comments when it was you who fired the first cheap shots at me and by this last post I see it doesn't seem to matter what I say, you're going to keep making this personal. Funny also that your opinion is the only one that you feel can't be judged. Can you say hypocrite? Now if you would go back and read the first post that started this whole debate you would see this discussion was less about quality and more about the ability to make a cheap kit sound good. If you want to come back with another cheap shot that's up to you.
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I'm not offended at all. So have your opinion and i'll have mine, as this debate could go on for ever. I actually find it quite funny, but enough of this tit for tat.
 
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