An attempt at a policy change here

[shemp]

Folks...hasn't this gone on long enough?

What nobody here knows is that the incident was over long ago as Andy and I corresponded right after the original thread was removed.

I did ask him to *please* not stop anything based on my singular opinion. In effect that says that my opinion is worthless as compared to the whole of the community. If that is not a fair response to my original statement, I'm not sure what is. And I do feel my opinion is not worth changing one's behavior over nor did I ask for anyone to change their behavior. Finally, on that point, it does continue to remain my opinion...intent notwithstanding, the result is still the same and that is what I took issue with.

It's not for anyone here to tell me what I should and should not take issue with...especially when it comes to stating one's point of view. If you don't like it, I accept that.

I don't mind being vilified here and I understand where it is coming from...I also have no doubts that Andy is an awesome fella and that his product is awesome. I can see myself purchasing some of his product...there is absolutely nothing personal here from my end.

The end is still the beginning in terms of my personal view on the matter. If you don't like it, so be it. Please ask Andy to continue forward. I'm not going to ask anyone to change their behavior.

 

[Stroman]

Either that or keep things as they are and make it clearly understood that anything anyone says about their drumming products is OK.

The more I think about it, the more I think all we really need is for Bernhard to say it's fine for participating members to hawk their wares. All this dancing around seems ridiculous.

 

[drum4fun27302]

He has his opinion and I have mine. Ban Shemp and let's go back to 48 hrs ago. Simple as that.

 

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Is talking about one's products technically not allowed under the current system?

You don't reckon Bernhard or Grunter or Jon or Arky or Dog or Nutha wouldn't have put their foot down, set us all straight and placed a blanket ban long ago if there wasn't scope to do so?

Leave the place as it is. There's a reason I signed on here and the ability to get a perspective from those on the "inside" is a big part of that. Why should one or two dissenting voices change the whole set up? Why should they dictate to Bernhard how he should run his own bloody forum? Bugger that.

Bernhard and the mods are quite capable of dealing with unwarranted shilling. Anyone who has a problem with the way they operate can take it up with them......or go be king of the hill on their own forum, where their own rules apply and are enforced as they see fit.

 

[porter]

He has his opinion and I have mine. Ban Shemp and let's go back to 48 hrs ago. Simple as that.

Oh yeah, that makes sense, because he broke so many forum rules and absolutely deserves to be banned. /s

While I don't understand why Shemp chose to express his opinion about that particular post, and not some other, more obviously marketing thread, he did not break forum rules by doing so and of course it was Andy's decision to stop posting about Guru.

 

[Midnite Zephyr]

Should I weigh in on this? Nah... Enough has been said already.

I just ask this one question. What the heck else is Andy supposed to talk about? His Spaun set and his Amedia cymbals?

Amedia vs. Istanbul...so what do you think, Andy? Who wins?

Ummm. How about Brady vs. C&C? What say you, Andy? Who wins that one?

When you post something in the Your Playing section, who is there for you more often than any other member? Yep, it's Andy. Rock on, Andy.
Have you seen his post count? The guy feels very comfortable here, and likes to contribute. I applaud that aspect of his personality.

 

[drummerjims]

Folks...hasn't this gone on long enough?

What nobody here knows is that the incident was over long ago as Andy and I corresponded right after the original thread was removed.

I did ask him to *please* not stop anything based on my singular opinion. In effect that says that my opinion is worthless as compared to the whole of the community. If that is not a fair response to my original statement, I'm not sure what is. And I do feel my opinion is not worth changing one's behavior over nor did I ask for anyone to change their behavior. Finally, on that point, it does continue to remain my opinion...intent notwithstanding, the result is still the same and that is what I took issue with.

It's not for anyone here to tell me what I should and should not take issue with...especially when it comes to stating one's point of view. If you don't like it, I accept that.

I don't mind being vilified here and I understand where it is coming from...I also have no doubts that Andy is an awesome fella and that his product is awesome. I can see myself purchasing some of his product...there is absolutely nothing personal here from my end.

The end is still the beginning in terms of my personal view on the matter. If you don't like it, so be it. Please ask Andy to continue forward. I'm not going to ask anyone to change their behavior.

Even though I don't agree with what I have read you said. I think this statement is great and everyone should forgive and forget. This is a forum which means this is a place for opinions. Feelings get hurt yada yada yada but sometimes we have to overlook things because it is such a huge community with several opinions.

 

[sethlowden]

I saw that thread unfold. I can see Shemp's point of view, but don't agree with it. I used to spend a lot of time on several woodworking forums where it is common practice for toolmakers, magazine writers and editors, book publishers, etc., to post freely on the message boards. As matter of fact, people actually encourage it, because they like that kind of information. If you don't like what they are posting, don't read it, and don't buy their stuff. Easy enough to gloss over the Guru posts if you aren't interested.

 

[DrumEatDrum]

So I guess from now on all posts will read some thing like:

Hey I was the [store name withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] looking at two drum sets.

I narrowed it down between a 5pc [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] drum set or this cool [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising].

I settled on a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] kit with a set of [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] cymbals.

i wasn't much into the stock heads, so I changed them out [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] heads.

Which was cool, because my band [band withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] had a gig at [club withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising]. The sound man put a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mic on my bass drum and two [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mics overhead. I was amazed how good it sounded!

My friend took an awesome video of the whole thing, but I'll be sure to not post it anywhere so as not to make anyone think I am advertising myself.

 

[Razbo]

the issue i have with a sub forum for manufacturers is we wont get the cool pics from Andy or some of the other manufacturers we like when they post them. it will mostly be ignored after a while because of the piles of spam it will generate. i dont go to the classified section unless im in the market for something so i wont go to a manufacturers sub-forum because im not buying any new drums. it was nice seeing stuff posted where it was, my gear/playing sections or whatever. i search "New Posts" and look at who the latest is from and decide to go in from there. if i see in a sub forum those crazy unreadable names or iphone spam i wont go in and in turn, miss out on my favorite stuff.

This is kind of my feeling about a sub forum as well. This is just me, but on any boards, I usually hit (lurk) the General and the Gear sections. Rarely do I look in classified, and probably would not look more often in a marketing sub forum. The way this board has worked in the General sub forum has been ok by me. Especially when taken in context with EvansSpecialist and the like... I would never see this information otherwise.

I happened to catch the thread unfolding. As an also newb to the board, I do see where Shemp was coming from a bit. I mean, my neck hairs stand up when I think I'm being marketed to. I did see the GURU posts and occasionally felt it was a bit of a product promotion. Not real overt, but "hey, BTW, I make drums" was apparent. Even so, it wasn't spammy and it was nothing that stuck in my mind, and, hey, they were real cool drums and the brand per se was usually only related to the content of the post. If that even makes sense to anyone but me.

Going back to my first point, in a sub forum, I'd probably still not know about them. Gentle introduction in the General forum has not only introduced that brand, but also construction techniques I knew little or nothing about.

A marketing sub forum could be a good idea for really putting out products, and give a freedom to really let loose how wondrous are these new innovations of sticks, cymbals, drums or whatever. I think the General sub forum should be just that: "general" and have a bit of leeway. I've only been here a few months, but I have not found anything to be offensive in the General forum. Even the bits of drama can be entertaining.

As a newb on any board, I often sense the 'old boys club' (just a turn of phrase, ladies), so I do give some kudos as well to Shemp and standing by what he felt was right in the face of pretty much unanimous opposition. I liked Anon's words that independance was won by terrorists. heheh.

So, bottom line for me, I think a sub forum would be great, and anyone would then be able to give all out reviews and commentary. General should have some leeway, lest some great contributions be lost. And us newbs need to not rustle up the old school needlessly once having given our opinion.

 

[Anon La Ply]

Another thing. The forum is built from a standard template. You can't add or subtract that easily and it depends on what components, if any, are left over from the initial installation.

 

[Midnite Zephyr]

Another thing. The forum is built from a standard template. You can't add or subtract that easily and it depends on what components, if any, are left over from the initial installation.

True. The best you can do is a Sticky Thread.

Whether it should be done or not is another issue of which I have no opinion. Sorry, Larry.

 

[PQleyR]

Arriving late to the discussion, as I am, I'll keep my contribution fairly brief.

The main issue this all raises for me is something I've been wondering for a while now. What is the 'General Discussion' forum actually for? It's obviously not for discussions of technique, we have a subforum for that. Nor is it for discussions of drums, cymbals, hardware, pedals...there's a subforum for that too. It's certainly not for posting your own playing, that's 'Your Playing'...it can't be for showing off your drums, that's 'Your Gear', nor is it for talking about specific drummers...that's 'Drummers'...etc.

So my question is really this: what's left when you take away all these things? Is there anything?

Of course, General Discussion is probably the most-visited part of the forum, so if you want people to see your post (and you wouldn't, I assume, be posting it otherwise), that's the place to put it...but how do we all really know what we're supposed to put on there? If we added a 'Marketing' or 'Products' subforum, this question would become even more challenging to answer.

 

[TTNW]

Some one posts a thread to an entire community....

"Come check out my website and give me comments"

Does that expose a product to a community? Yes

Is it saying "Come look at this great new product"? No

For someone new here to go to that website they get exposed to a new product

Egregious or not, that is the definition of thinly veiled marketing...it's simple logic.

Whether I'm here a day or 10 years does not make any difference...My opinion is just as valid and sentient as anyone elses...

Thank you for your opinion....using an emotional outburst to try and offend me and telling me to go away will not alter my thinking or my behavior.

I stand by what I said...it is marketing; like it or not...and it should not continue..in my opinion

The difference, Shemp, is that Andy built his reputation on here long before he was involved in Guru drums. If it was a new poster aggressively marketing, it would be different. Neither was the case.

I think what I did was express an opinion about something...if you don't like my opinion or the result of my comment, then you find that I am less than a good person...

If you apply some logic to that, it might put you in a rather dim light. think about it

That is not a cogent point or application...it does not matter what the genesis is...this is not a popularity contest...its a logical discussion that says that someone was marketing their product through use of a community

The answer is a resounding yes....the rest is gratuitous information...

The music business contains two words "music" and "business".

Both get discussed here quite frequently. And while I think money has a bad habit of ruining art, none the less, business is part of making music.

So we discuss the business aspect of music frequently here. The good, the bad, things we observe, and things we are involved in.

Inevitably someone questions why. But business 1/2 the conversation when discussing the music business. If we can't discuss it freely without someone taking offense, then 1/2 our conversations are gone.

If you don't like a topic, don't read it.

No offense, but I don't think this really solves anything. The thing about Andy's posts is, they were not marketing. He was usually excited about some event or gig he played/wanted to share, and part of the excitement was the drums he built.

It seems to me like this sub forum idea would be a burden to him because he might wonder if he has to post something there if he mentions for example, what guru snare he was using on a video, or just wants to informally discuss his website as he's building it.

I don't think he's the type to come around and post up a bunch of brochure material in some kind of advertising sub-forum that most sane people would steer clear of.

Then allow me to use mine for the first time in 4 odd years......

What a fucking circus!! I'm genuinely bloody staggered this is even an issue.

The reason the "no advertising" rule was created is as plain as the nose on your face. It was designed to stop the hit and run spammer......surely this is obvious to even the most feeble minded? Quite a bit of leeway is offered here. The ones who break the spirit of that are easily identifiable.....hint, they're not the ones who actively contribute to the wider forum as well. The fact that Bernhard allows regular contributing members to let us know their wares are available is a sure fire sign that it breaks no DW rules, no?

Andy isn't the only one able to offer a unique perspective from inside the business....and thank christ for it. Sometimes that inside knowledge can be far more beneficial.......whether it be one of the various drum makers, cymbalsmiths, retail store owners, company employees, teachers or professional endorsers that frequent this place.......that knowledge often goes above and beyond the limited scop offered by some kid in his bedroom with fifteen minutes experience.

And people wanna shut that down? FFS!

Don't like it? Fine.....start your own forum and create your own rules. But until then. let the site owner and mods determine who crosses boundaries and who doesn't

The classified section, is for somebody specifically selling gear. I think there is a need for another section so people can discuss anything related to their business venture. That way any thread in that section can be avoided if desired. Even if a person hits the new posts button, the sub-forum is still listed and can be avoided. Everyone wins. Either that or keep things as they are and make it clearly understood that anything anyone says about their drumming products is OK.

It's kind of like that now, but not really, that's why we're here now. It's a gray area, that is sort of under a rule, but that rule is not rigorously enforced. I would like some official clarification. Is talking about one's products technically not allowed under the current system?

Folks...hasn't this gone on long enough?

What nobody here knows is that the incident was over long ago as Andy and I corresponded right after the original thread was removed.

I did ask him to *please* not stop anything based on my singular opinion. In effect that says that my opinion is worthless as compared to the whole of the community. If that is not a fair response to my original statement, I'm not sure what is. And I do feel my opinion is not worth changing one's behavior over nor did I ask for anyone to change their behavior. Finally, on that point, it does continue to remain my opinion...intent notwithstanding, the result is still the same and that is what I took issue with.

It's not for anyone here to tell me what I should and should not take issue with...especially when it comes to stating one's point of view. If you don't like it, I accept that.

I don't mind being vilified here and I understand where it is coming from...I also have no doubts that Andy is an awesome fella and that his product is awesome. I can see myself purchasing some of his product...there is absolutely nothing personal here from my end.

The end is still the beginning in terms of my personal view on the matter. If you don't like it, so be it. Please ask Andy to continue forward. I'm not going to ask anyone to change their behavior.

You don't reckon Bernhard or Grunter or Jon or Arky or Dog or Nutha wouldn't have put their foot down, set us all straight and placed a blanket ban long ago if there wasn't scope to do so?

Leave the place as it is. There's a reason I signed on here and the ability to get a perspective from those on the "inside" is a big part of that. Why should one or two dissenting voices change the whole set up? Why should they dictate to Bernhard how he should run his own bloody forum? Bugger that.

Bernhard and the mods are quite capable of dealing with unwarranted shilling. Anyone who has a problem with the way they operate can take it up with them......or go be king of the hill on their own forum, where their own rules apply and are enforced as they see fit.

These posts are a good summary of the whole issue. Maybe Bernhard will weigh in on this but otherwise I applaud everyone for being so "unlike" every other forum I've ever visited except for Cymbalholic.com

Larry's idea for a sub forum sounds good at first glance but I think in addition to the mods we self regulate quite well. I don't think we need to create a sub forum. It will just end up being a cess pool of spam that really great guys (like Andy, Bill Bachman, EvansSpecialist, Bill PP, and many others) with obvious ethics would have to swim in.

Personally, I don't want to have to filter all of that to get the great info that these guys pass along.

I hope rational minds prevail. I still love this forum.

 

[BabyBob]

Good idea Larry, you got my vote. I don't see any cons of it.

So I guess from now on all posts will read some thing like:

Hey I was the [store name withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] looking at two drum sets.

I narrowed it down between a 5pc [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] drum set or this cool [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising].

I settled on a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] kit with a set of [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] cymbals.

i wasn't much into the stock heads, so I changed them out [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] heads.

Which was cool, because my band [band withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] had a gig at [club withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising]. The sound man put a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mic on my bass drum and two [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mics overhead. I was amazed how good it sounded!

My friend took an awesome video of the whole thing, but I'll be sure to not post it anywhere so as not to make anyone think I am advertising myself.

If this happens...I'm lost for words.

 

[DrumEatDrum]

Another thing. The forum is built from a standard template. You can't add or subtract that easily and it depends on what components, if any, are left over from the initial installation.

Not true.

I admin another site that uses this same software. It's just a few clicks of a button.

 

[JohnnyG]

The boss has spoken and I will share his thoughts. Thank you for keeping it fairly civil, and now it is time to move on. We will all have differing opinions on many subjects but for now here is the boss's thought:

a new Forum section: NO. In the past we had some good ideas to make a section for this and that - just to find out at the end, it starts to be confusing - keep it simple is my opinion the way to go... Bernhard.

 

[wildbill]

Hope it's not too late to say I changed my mind about the desirability of a new section (not that it matters - ha ha - Bernhard has spoken and I agree with him).

I like the forum the way it is - occasional irrational outbursts and all.

I do think that new members should try and get a feel for the place and its members before stirring up hornet's nests though.

 

[Larry]

TBH the only reason I suggested a new sub forum was as a courtesy to the members here who don't want to be advertised to....so they can avoid it. IMO, we have enough sub forums that cover everything nicely already, provided we are permitted to speak about any products we may be selling..

Which I am still unclear about if we are allowed to or not.

 

[shemp]

TBH the only reason I suggested a new sub forum was as a courtesy to the members here who don't want to be advertised to....so they can avoid it. IMO, we have enough sub forums that cover everything nicely already, provided we are permitted to speak about any products we may be selling..

Which I am still unclear about if we are allowed to or not.

Ostensibly, on any forum, members that are business owners should not be posting in a way that promotes their product....it is built in free marketing. No matter how it is presented or what guise it may be under it is still marketing. That's what businesses have websites for and a marketing budget.

A business owner can just as well expound on their products and innovations and events on their own site...and the motivated individuals that want to learn about it can go there....that is why companies have their OWN forums....for that express purpose.

My opinion is that people should not be selling or marketing on forums like this no matter how it is presented. Again, an opinion....