20 vs 22 kick?

[sumdrumguy]

Another ghost from DWFs past resurrected.

Let's make a deal. You put some paragraph breaks in that, and I will read it

 

[MntnMan62]

Interesting discussion and one that I too am interested in. I've had one kit for my entire life with a 20x14 kick. It was a 4 piece with 12x8 and 14x14 toms. It made sense for the kit but I always felt the kick drum was small. I now absolutely love my vintage 1975 kit as it is but I'm also looking to find a less expensive kit to use for gigging and have been gravitating to 22" base drums. Most have been 18" deep but I don't necessarily need that kind of depth and would be perfectly happy with a 16" depth.

 

[Stroman]

OwhKaaay, So... "now, here's the deal": Years ago a man in TX who was previously a Guitar Luthier before becoming a "boutique" [stave shell] Drum builder explained to me WHY he only made drums in certain specific sizes, and WHY he REFUSED to make, for example, a 13-inch tom 11 inches tall. It goes all-the-way back to Pythagoras. The "ideal" or "perfect" ratio of ANY size diameter BASS drum is 3 :: 2. Either THAT, or "square", i.e. as deep as it is round. I have experienced a 20 x 20 and it was just plain awesome. Man that did the drum clinic [no, I'm not gonna' "drop" his name here, just to impress ppl.] wanted to buy the whole KIT just to have that particular "kick" drum. Just a regular pillow in the bottom. Nothing fancy in the way of "gear", or heads. Totally "stock". So... there's that. 20 x 20. [not 18" deep] If you want to use the Geometry for the "perfect" tone a 20-inch diameter would be 20 divided by three, times two, which is 13.3333 inches. o.k., we'll call it 14. The reason WHY the 14-inch depth was THE depth for ALL bass drums goes way way back. I mean... b4 Gene Krupa "invented" what we know today as a drum. Back when the heads were actually "skin". The Bass drums in the early jazz era were 28 x 14. A 2 :: 1 ratio. That is actually how you get an Octave, using Pythagorean geometry. The "perfect" size for a SNARE is 14 x 7. For Toms it is 4 :: 3, i.e. 12 x 9, 16 x 12 [not 13] for a "rack" tom. ANY-way... with a kick drum it is very much about the bearing edge. A double 45 is excellent on the front, the rezo end, but not so good for the batter, for reasons I'll not bore you with. It is ALL a matter of "personal taste", just like Hi Hats or a Ride, or which aftershave you prefer. For a 2nd bass drum I highly recommend a "vintage" 24 x 16. Again, that is using the Pythagorean "perfect" scale. 24 divided by three times two is 16. THAT ...with a lefty double pedal on MY 20 x 20 is what I record with. ;-)

I feel silly responding to a 6 year old thread, but here goes.

I have no doubt that you liked the sound of that TX drum maker's kit, but his thoughts on Pythagorus' musical ratios are seriously misapplied to drum construction, I believe. Pythagoras worked with simple lyre strings, and was observing the relationships of pitches, NOT the sizes of the various components of a resonating chamber. A drum is much more complicated than the simple relationships of wavelengths that Pythagorus described. He apparently didn't look at all at the way sound waves bounce around in a drum shell, or the interaction between depth of shell and diameter of membrane, so this builder's assertion makes no sense.

The 14X20 size (or any other size) probably originated as much for aesthetics as from acoustic theory.

 

[felonious69]

OwhKaaay, So... "now, here's the deal":

Wait...NOW I gotta do math-ifying too!?!?!

 

[Fritz Frigursson]

Interesting discussion and one that I too am interested in. I've had one kit for my entire life with a 20x14 kick. It was a 4 piece with 12x8 and 14x14 toms. It made sense for the kit but I always felt the kick drum was small. I now absolutely love my vintage 1975 kit as it is but I'm also looking to find a less expensive kit to use for gigging and have been gravitating to 22" base drums. Most have been 18" deep but I don't necessarily need that kind of depth and would be perfectly happy with a 16" depth.

you should absolutely try a 22x14. Nothing like it.

 

[P-Mark]

I feel silly responding to a 6 year old thread, but here goes.

I have no doubt that you liked the sound of that TX drum maker's kit, but his thoughts on Pythagorus' musical ratios are seriously misapplied to drum construction, I believe. Pythagoras worked with simple lyre strings, and was observing the relationships of pitches, NOT the sizes of the various components of a resonating chamber. A drum is much more complicated than the simple relationships of wavelengths that Pythagorus described. He apparently didn't look at all at the way sound waves bounce around in a drum shell, or the interaction between depth of shell and diameter of membrane, so this builder's assertion makes no sense.

The 14X20 size (or any other size) probably originated as much for aesthetics as from acoustic theory.


wellL... actually there was extensive scientific research to back him up. He was making drums by hand with thin staves & reinforcement rings. Someone famous was loaned one of his Snare drums, a 13 x 6 1/2, to use for Austin City Limits and... he didn't want to give it back. Offered a crazy amt. of munny to buy it. Absolutely wanted to KEEP it. But it was loaned BY the builder on the condition that it be understood it was not for sale. It was one of his drums that a grad student was testing in the Lab. I cannot recall which University. There are so many in TX. So you were presumptious when you said [he] “didn't look at all at the way sound waves bounce around in a drum shell”.
For you to assert that he “seriously misapplied” the science is completely ludicrous. You are correct about Pythagoras basing his geometry for musical instruments on the length of a string. But what is RELEVANT to this thread is the DEPTH of a Bass Drum, and the history of how the depth has “evolved” over time. If you do a little research you'll discover that 'back in the day' when the term “trap” was first used as an abbreviation for “contraption” 28 x 14 was pretty much the ONLY size of a bass drum played sitting on a “throne”. The 14-inch depth was the industry standard decades before any of us were born. In the 60s they were just “drums”. Nobody at Ludwig or Slingerland ever gave it much thought. But in the 21st century drums got to be so expensive that we no longer can afford a monster kit such as was common in the 70s & 80s, and the technology enabled engineering that was far beyond anything ever imagined when Gretsch bought Slingerland in 1986. In fact, the engineers @ Pearl determined the perfect place to put the air hole in a drum, the “resonating chamber” as you call it, using what it known as “The Golden Ratio”. ...Hard Science. Actual Fact. NOT a “belief” or someone's OPINION.
He told me that the [dictionary] definition of a drum is "a musical instrument of indeterminate pitch". The drummer, the player "determines" the pitch by how he chooses to tune the mylar head.
I'm not here to flaunt my knowledge or feed my ego. I'm only trying to help drummers understand why tuning certain sizes of drums (like "power" Toms) drive you mad while other depths have what it takes to 'inspire'.

 

[Stroman]

Sorry mate, I've obviously touched a sore spot or something, and really, I don't want to argue. I should have just welcomed you to the board instead of peeing in your wheaties on your first post.

 

[Sakae2xBopster]

I have a somewhat off-topic question although it has some relevance to the thread as it deals with pitch, tone and resonance so I thought you guys might know. I've been wondering if a lacquer versus wrap finish has any impact on a drum's sound, particularly that of a kick drum. My thought is that the finish is almost like an outside ply in a way, so perhaps it has an impact. Or maybe it is minimal?

As for depth, I play 18 inch kicks that are 16 and 14 inches deep. I much prefer the tone of the shallower kick, the 14. But some of that may also have to do with the difference in the inner plies (maple on the 14; poplar on the 16).

 

[harryconway]

I've had one kit for my entire life with a 20x14 kick. It was a 4 piece with 12x8 and 14x14 toms. It made sense for the kit but I always felt the kick drum was small. I now absolutely love my vintage 1975 kit as it is but I'm also looking to find a less expensive kit to use for gigging and have been gravitating to 22" base drums. Most have been 18" deep but I don't necessarily need that kind of depth and would be perfectly happy with a 16" depth.

If you shop used, there are plenty of "older" kits that have the 14 or 16 inch depth on their 22's. Yeah, the big rage seems to be 18" deep at the moment .... although Yamaha Stage Custom's are 17" and Rydeen is 16.

 

[P-Mark]

So I'm looking at getting a new kit. My initial idea was to go with a 20" kick vs. 22". Two reasons: I like my drums low and this gives me a little more breathing room for placement, second, it requires a little less space when transporting. Now I haven't played a 20" kick since high school 40 years ago and I'm wondering if I'm missing something here. I was thinking that 20x18 depth would get a little more thud vs a 16" depth to help compensate for the smaller diameter. But then maybe it wouldn't, it might be more of a timbre change than the fundamental. Then I got to thinking about beater height placement changes. Then I got to thinking that I'm over-thinking this.

 

[P-Mark]

I have a somewhat off-topic question although it has some relevance to the thread as it deals with pitch, tone and resonance so I thought you guys might know. I've been wondering if a lacquer versus wrap finish has any impact on a drum's sound, particularly that of a kick drum. My thought is that the finish is almost like an outside ply in a way, so perhaps it has an impact. Or maybe it is minimal?

As for depth, I play 18 inch kicks that are 16 and 14 inches deep. I much prefer the tone of the shallower kick, the 14. But some of that may also have to do with the difference in the inner plies (maple on the 14; poplar on the 16).

the absolute "best" finish on a kick drum is Satin*. Wrap does somewhat inhibit the shell's ability to vibrate. A gloss lacquer also functions as a "sealer", makes the drum have more of a "tight" (as opposed to "open") sound, but is still preferable to a wrapped shell... if you're really OCD about your drum's sound. However, for the most-part once the wood has had a few years to "cure", if it is kept out of humid weather, if you do not live close to the beach [I owned a kit in the 70s that lived in Atlantic City and the salt air messed 'em up] ...after a few years the wrap becomes a non-issue, and your ears will never know the difference between a lacquer finish or wrapped drum if it is old enuf to be considered "vintage". But if you wanna' know about a brand NEW drum, especially smaller diameter... then yes, absolutely, a lacquer finish is definitely the drum for you.

*note: Gloss is much easier to "maintain". The Satin finish is very difficult to keep the dust off of.
But if it is something like a DW 20" kick then you want Satin rather than glossy, for "optimal" sound, and no port hole on the front.