Stage volume

WhoIsTony? said:
...may be better dealt with in person
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I absolutely agree, there's nothing like a good positive "discussion" when there's discrepencies within a band, and it should be discussed when everyone's present, Larry you raised the issue of "stage volume", which no doubt would get the talking begin, Neil could then handle the chat and get opinions from all band members (including your good self) to resolve this "problem" in the most satisfying manner for everyone, I'm sure everyone in your band want to sound good and well balanced within the band, if not it's only an egocentric trip.

Your initial e-mail was fine but somehow very direct, and yes, we can see that you were upset at the time of writting it, it has been somewhat misinterpreted by you band leader, his answer proves that point very clearly (gosh, he doesn't take his role lightly... do you have to clock in when you come to play??).

Your answer is much better, it has the aim of cooling down the situation and at the same time apologizing if anyone was unjustifyingly attacked, you only wanted to raise an important point which in your eyes is not very professional, and that point is still present ATM in your response.

I agree with Philippe, wait to meet Neil and the rest of the band... but I feel after the mail exchange that this situation has to be discussed.

After all he said: "You make a few points that are worthy of discussion in terms of our volume. I wish you had stated them succinctly and objectively, and without editorial. ", which is good, at least it seems that he agree that this volume issue should be discussed and resolved... in a more gentle and friendly manner :)

It's always better to talk first... words can be forgotten, things in writting always remain in everyone's memory.

I genuinely hope that this "stage volume" issue will get resolved for you Larry, good luck and keep smiling :))
 
Very rational analysis Henri. I admit I could have worded it better. I will try to do better in the future. But I have no regrets. Now he knows how I really feel about it, and that I feel comfortable enough to not mince words. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have said anything. I informed him in the very beginning when I joined that if I have something to say, it will be said. I am incapable of lying when it comes to music. How I say these things is a constant refinement process. But this particular issue has been going on long enough and I got pushed over the edge. In my mind, shame on Neil for letting it go on this long. But I will keep that to myself. He got my point.
 
I too thought this was better taken up in person. Especially if you are critical of one person, and not just volume.

However, given the way its gone, I can see "Neil' is really an arse, defensive and even worried about wordsmithing (is he a lawyer by trade?). I can see exactly this guys personality. He's the alpha male in the band, and a little incensed that there even IS a problem. Sorry to be cynical but now I would expect Neil will talk to bassman, then a 'he said, she said' ensue....and so on. More so, given you only care for 3 out of 5 in the band (yourself too of course lol) it would not surprise to see you leaving in a little while.

Its funny if not worrisome, Neil never detected any issue with volume. I mean, if musicians are at all listening, isn't too high a volume obvious?
 
opentune said:
I mean, if musicians are at all listening, isn't too high a volume obvious?
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I'm going to say no, it is not always obvious. People have different tolerances and affinities for volume.

Even feedback from the venue isn't totally reliable. One bar I've worked, in particular, almost always has bartenders complaining about volume, not because bands are so loud but because the stage literally butts up against the bar. Anything louder than a boombox makes it hard for them to hear. The manager will listen to their complaints, come out front to the dance floor, and say "Nope, it's not too loud. Carry on, boys!" It's kind of funny, but I sometimes feel a bit bad for the bartenders.
 
Did anyone ever see that South Park episode about Captain Hindsight? Well, the Captain has arrived at the scene and wants to remind everyone that bad news is best delivered in person for exactly the reason stated below by *** The Bandleader ***(praise be, three Hail Marys).

Another Cpt Hindsight observation is that the original message was worded too harshly and became focus of *** The Bandleader *** (may he marry 100 camels) rather than the message about band volume, which so far has not been addressed at all.

Despite some quick lip service at the start of *** The Bandleader's *** first message my guess is if *** The Bandleader *** (Oh Glorious One) cared in the slightest about the volume he would have done something about it. It's not as though *** The Bandleader *** is afraid of making his rank clear to his minions and using it to pull them into line.

Notice he says in the last missive "your concerns about volume" rather than "the volume issue" (or something similar). Makes me wonder if he thinks there is a volume problem at all.
 
Lol Anon. Judging from the latest reply, it seems like he's stewing and getting hotter over it. The bandleader was a big part of the volume problem, so it's on him too. My wife thinks I'm getting fired. I don't. I don't think he would rock the boat with Memphis on the calendar. But if he does, whatever. This is an optional thing for me, it's not like I need the money. But I like this band and won't quit. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't care enough to raise the issue.
 
Larry, your days are numbered with this band.
I was in a similar situation last year.
By the second set the levels were out of control.
Mostly because the lead and rhythm guitar players liked to drink instead of play.
The bass player and I would remain sober and in control and get angry.
By the end of the second set my hands would be swollen from pounding.
I blew a gasket and I bitched them out during a break one night.
They fired me via email the next day and they got another drummer who played loud.
I moved on to a band that understands dynamics and I am happy now.
Everybody won! :)
 
larryace said:
Latest exchange: I'd like to continue this conversation, and discuss your concerns about volume, but I'd rather to do it face to face. Email has an insidious way of sounding nastier than is intended..

My reply to this was:

Hey Neil,

That would be great.

Larry
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I think I nailed it on this one.

TTNW said:
Don't reply back. Wait until you see him in person to discuss it, and only if he brings it up....

I can see right through that email.

Let him just think about it and see what he does. If he jumps your shit about it, tell him that emails sometimes read "cold" and he shouldn't consider your words to be so harsh.
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The idea being let him wait and deal with it in person. Now he has used the "emails are cold" metaphor and is baiting you.

Let it sit.
 
I don't predict a firing. And I'm not quitting. If I get fired for this, he will have done it on his own accord, because if he put it to a vote, there's no way the other guys would vote to let me go. Just my gut feeling. In the grand scheme of things, this issue is small potatoes. How many stories have you heard about band members physically beating on one another and still remaining together?
 
larryace said:
Judging from the latest reply, it seems like he's stewing and getting hotter over it.
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Larry, it's possible that he's the first person ever to get themselves psyched up to try to claim the moral high ground in a confrontations with righteous anger?

Or he might be the 7 billionth.

*** He*** doesn't yet realise that he's dealing with The Larz, who is unfazed by such Machiavellian machinations :)

It seems simple enough. You have a room. You have people in it. If you're not playing music that by definition requires in-your-face impropriety then you adjust your tone and volume for the room to fit the circumstance and maximise everyone's enjoyment.

However, for some players the music doesn't hit the spot unless it's super loud, irregardless of the room.

Bob, you did well with the change - that new band of yours is a very enjoyable unit!
 
Grea's hitting on you big guy. She thinks you have an enjoyable unit.
 
I'm going to suggest a different approach, which may not be very popular here.

Bandleaders have a lot on their minds. One thing they don't like to do is deal with personal problems between members of the band, and I don't blame them. In my experience it's better for the individuals involved to sort things out between themselves, and keep the bandleader out of it.

I don't see anything wrong with suggesting to the bass player that he try to be more aware of his stage volume. Hasn't anyone here ever done something similar? I have, and it doesn't have to be a big deal. It's always worth a try.

I'm surprised at the negative comments about the bandleader, Neil. What was he supposed to say? If it's a good band that's enjoyable to be in, then the bandleader's doing his job as far as I'm concerned. And remember, nowhere does it say that you're always going to like your boss.

You can make it all right, Larry, you can. You can fix this, and everyone will be happy.

Just my opinion based on my own experience.
 
The first email was pretty brutal... it could have probably been worded a little more conservatively but we've all been there. I can imagine he might be a little sore afterwards but the follow-ups were pretty solid and I think you will be able to get worked out. I feel like maybe the BL felt insulted (understandable) and immediately became defensive.
 
Guilty as charged. Probably should try to do that better in the future. I made too big a deal about it.
 
con struct said:
I don't see anything wrong with suggesting to the bass player that he try to be more aware of his stage volume. Hasn't anyone here ever done something similar? I have, and it doesn't have to be a big deal. It's always worth a try.

I'm surprised at the negative comments about the bandleader, Neil.
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Sure, it's very common for players to tell others about any problems they pick up from their vantage point in the room. I've played very little with bandleaders (since I have a penchant for amateur joint enterprises) but wouldn't it bug the bandleader to run around telling people to do things if he likes it loud? In terms of chain-of-command, which appears pretty established in the band, that would men Larry was taking on a supervisory role over the bassist without delegation.

Personally, Neil's response reminded me of form letters you get from the gummint in its avoidance of the key issue, and was more non-committal than singles bar prowlers.

Larry ranted and received a pompous response. Probably a fair exchange in a way :)
 
I don't think Eddie would turn down on a consistent basis simply because I'd ask. He's a pretty gung ho type guy. I have to hold this guy back. Playing with him, up till a short time ago, was like holding back an animal who wanted to run. To his credit, lately he has surrendered and is not a runaway train anymore tempo-wise. He's finally accepted the fact that I won't get sucked along in his rip current and is adjusting nicely. Now all I have to do is get his volume down lol.

I thought it would have to be some kind of like, band rule that everyone needs to be more aware of the space we are playing in and realize that we are a big band with a giant sound and need major volume control in small areas. I don't have the clout to get this guy where he needs to be. Plus, he's not the only one. We played an outdoor party on a covered patio the other week where everyone basically adjourned to another area as soon as we started playing. Why that didn't bother anyone is beyond me. The band doesn't know how to play small spaces, plain and simple. Every gig is played like an outdoor festival.

I'm acting like this is my band. Maybe I care too much.
 
In my experience it's generally sensible to let someone else be the first to be unpleasant. If people can't deal with facts simply stated, they reveal themselves to be irrational and therefore invalidate their position whatever it is. However, if you leap in too aggressively, even if your argument is watertight, they can make a convincing case that it's your attitude that's the problem, which makes it harder to resolve the actual practical issues. At that point nobody knows where they stand any more, and either you end up messing up relationships that were previously working, or perhaps worse, giving the benefit of the doubt to people who you'd be better off not working with.

One other thing, Larry...while it's fun to read all this I do wonder whether posting your private email correspondence on a public forum, with names, is a sensible idea.
 
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