Zildjian 14" A Thin Crash Rant

MrLeadFoot

Silver Member
Is this what you're looking for? ;)Hope it helps!
I already contacted them with questions about the video they said they have, as well as asked about weight. I actually have some cymbals from that era of Zildjians that contains that labeling, but since I got no response from the seller, I'm not interested in doing business with them. I can just imagine that cymbal arriving and not being what was advertised and trying to deal with them after the sale. No thanks, but thanks for trying. ;-)
 

zenstat

Well-known member
2006 is defnitely not correct. Just a few years ago, I was seeing them on the Zildjian site. In fact, I distinctly remember the one I bought used had the large A, which came out later than 2006.

You got me wondering about where Reverb got their production years for the 14" Thin Crash. I'm slowly working on a full history of all models and one of the useful documents is this (thanks to Paul Francis)

http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/models-1970-2017.pdf << download pdf

Reverb says 1982 to 2006. The official models doc says 14" Thin Crash in 1980 lineup, lasted until 2006. The first year Reverb gives seemed a little odd until I worked out what might be going on. Elsewhere Reverb has Thin Crash 1978 - 1982 so maybe Reverb are separating stamp eras? I've traced Thin Crash back in to the 1950s but because the Zildjian document starts at 1970 we are still working out the older stuff.

Zildjian also have 1983 for Paper Thin Crash (until 2005) and in 14" to 17" so there were other weight classes in the mix. But 2005 and 2006 don't get you near to 2013, and don't get you what you want. ?

The ink change to the bigger script A is part of the 2013 reset. I presume that's what you are referring to? A fairly thorough review of all the ink changes is here although I've got more info since then.

^^^ link to 2013 ink change example

If you don't mean the bigger script 2013 A the previous change was 2006

^^^ link to 2006 ink change example

and that is consistent with seeing the last year of the 14" Thin Crash as 2006.

If you really believe you saw 2013 ink on a 14" A Zildjian Thin Crash that presents an anomaly. You could email Zildjian customer services and ask them about that, or look back through the internet archives to check on previous states of the site. I try not to get too hung up on anomalies and focus instead on getting a nice overview. I've found that the models document is very good, but not 100% complete. It will help me produce a full Avedis Zildjian model history like the Paiste portal has


The Zildjian info will all get changed and updated as it slowly moves into the wiki.
 
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JaysonJeanChannel

Well-known member
I found another one!
 

danondrums

Well-known member
To answer “why” I would guess that the cost of producing the cymbal was greater than, or near to equal the income from sales.

There are lots of wonderful cymbals out there. You’ll find a sound you like.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
To answer “why” I would guess that the cost of producing the cymbal was greater than, or near to equal the income from sales.
One would think so. They already produce a bunch of 14s though for hi hats. Surely the cost of 14s cant be too high.

I have no idea, maybe it's different to make a crash than a hat.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
That's kind of lame-- A. Zildjian has been the definition of normal cymbals for what, a century? Seems like if there's one thing in the world they should be making, it's a full range of thin crashes-- 14 (or 12?)-22".

Anyway, I forgot all about 14" crashes. I think I need to get one now.
 
I already contacted them with questions about the video they said they have, as well as asked about weight. I actually have some cymbals from that era of Zildjians that contains that labeling, but since I got no response from the seller, I'm not interested in doing business with them. I can just imagine that cymbal arriving and not being what was advertised and trying to deal with them after the sale. No thanks, but thanks for trying. ;-)

Here’s a used one . But since you were in reverb you may have seen it already ?

 

zenstat

Well-known member
Here’s a used one . But since you were in reverb you may have seen it already ?


That isn't a THIN CRASH based on the weight. Those are more like 750g - 850g (subject to fining up -- I've got many hundreds of weights but few with crash ink). That one is likely a hi hat top from that period at 1111g, although it could also be the bottom of a pair of Light Hats. Reverb just uses what he seller says to classify items. The last time I checked the error rate for that approach was about 25% of cymbals misclassified as to decade or model. That one certainly shows the edge wear which builds up from use as a hi hat.

And speaking of period, that is one of the uncommon cymbals which combines the 1982-1987 CO stamp with the hollow ink Zildjian. This puts it as likely produced during 1982±1 as the change in ink styles is said to have happened towards the end of 1982. The entry on my site doesn't have the years 1982-1987 as I haven't updated it yet. Updates were frozen while I am trying to move everything over to the wiki. Research didn't stop.

With bell shapes being different on each model I imagine it’s a different set of tooling for each cymbal with occasional overlap.

Bell shapes aren't different for each model of the A series. The 5 basic shapes cover many decades and most cymbals. Here they are:

zildjian-bells.png

A few more have been added for the A series, and there are other bell dies for the other series (K, K Constantinople, K Custom, Kerope) but those 5 are still the most common. Bell shapes are still useful for identifying models once all the ink has gone, but in a limited set of diameters and models. To that end I'm trying to document them. 14" hats and crashes have a Small Cup, except for the occasional (and not well known) Mini Cup hats.

14-976-1240-ink.jpg
 
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MrLeadFoot

Silver Member
I found another one!
And, Zenstat should make note that this one is the LARGE A series.
 

MrLeadFoot

Silver Member
That isn't a THIN CRASH based on the weight. Those are more like 750g - 850g...
With all due respect, I beg to differ. Thin crashes are indeed in the range you describe. In fact, the first one Jason referred to on Reverb is 839g, the one with the Large A that I had previously was 820g. Perhaps you're mistaking your weights with the Fast crashes, which are are lighter, and range somewhere between 680 and 730g.

Eidt: Zenstat, please disregard this. I think your wording confused me a bit, and I think "those" you referred to was the Thin Crashes. I think if you had said "Thin Crashes" instead of "those", it would have been more clear for my little brain. So, my apologies for the post.
 
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zenstat

Well-known member
And, Zenstat should make note that this one is the LARGE A series.

Thank you. That link appeared after I made my initial post which is why I still hadn't seen a 14" Thin Crash with the 2013 ink. Now I have seen a 14" Thin Crash with the 2013 ink. It now looks like an end year of 2006 for the 14" Thin Crash is another example of small errors or omissions in the Zildjian pdf on when models and diameters are introduced and deleted.

With all due respect, I beg to differ. Thin crashes are indeed in the range you describe. In fact, the first one Jason referred to on Reverb is 839g, the one with the Large A that I had previously was 820g. Perhaps you're mistaking your weights with the Fast crashes, which are are lighter, and range somewhere between 680 and 730g.

Eidt: Zenstat, please disregard this. I think your wording confused me a bit, and I think "those" you referred to was the Thin Crashes. I think if you had said "Thin Crashes" instead of "those", it would have been more clear for my little brain. So, my apologies for the post.

I'll try to be more precise in my writing.
 

MrLeadFoot

Silver Member
With all due respect, I beg to differ. Thin crashes are indeed in the range you describe. In fact, the first one Jason referred to on Reverb is 839g, the one with the Large A that I had previously was 820g. Perhaps you're mistaking your weights with the Fast crashes, which are are lighter, and range somewhere between 680 and 730g.
Thank you. That link appeared after I made my initial post which is why I still hadn't seen a 14" Thin Crash with the 2013 ink. Now I have seen a 14" Thin Crash with the 2013 ink. It now looks like an end year of 2006 for the 14" Thin Crash is another example of small errors or omissions in the Zildjian pdf on when models and diameters are introduced and deleted.
I'm now not surprised about errors and omissions on Zildjian's part. In fact, I just sent a message to them the other day, regarding how they don't have ANY specs on ANY of their products on their own website! Yet someone like Sweetwater has complete specs including weight classes, pitch, sustain, etc. I can't even believe Zildjian omits that sort of thing. What are they thinking? I mean, do they really expect us to take the word of their reseller over them? Most people want to hear things straight from the manufacturer, not a reaseller. Did a principal at Zildjian die, or soemthing, leaving marketing up to a bean counter or an engineer? Sheesh! Makes you start to lose faith in companies that make boneheaed moves like that, not to mention the discontinuation of what might arguably be the most versatile crash cymbal ever made. I mean, out of all crashes, the 14" A Thin Crash is the one crash that can pretty much cross all genres.

I'll try to be more precise in my writing.
No worries, I think it was more in the the way I perceived it than how you worded it. ;-)
 
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zenstat

Well-known member
I'm now not surprised about errors and omissions on Zildjian's part. In fact, I just sent a message to them the other day, regarding how they don't have ANY specs on ANY of their products on their own website! Yet someone like Sweetwater has complete specs including weight classes, pitch, sustain, etc. I can't even believe Zildjian omits that sort of thing. What are they thinking? I mean, do they really expect us to take the word of their reseller over them? Most people want to hear things straight from the manufacturer, not a reaseller. Did a principal at Zildjian die, or soemthing, leaving marketing up to a bean counter or an engineer? Sheesh! Makes you start to lose faith in companies that make boneheaed moves like that, not to mention the discontinuation of what might arguably be the most versatile crash cymbal ever made. I mean, out of all crashes, the 14" A Thin Crash is the one crash that can pretty much cross all genres.

Yes I've noticed that Sweetwater and some other sellers do seem to have specs which I don't see on the Zildjian web site. I'm not sure if the specs used to be on the public section of the Zildjian site and were removed in some "makeover", or were just in some private area for retailers. There is actually a lot of information available. My problem is collecting it all up and writing nice summaries. I'm still fiddling with the layout for individual models but the Paiste part of the wiki show some aspects of the plan for Zildjian entries at the series-model-diameter level.

 

MrLeadFoot

Silver Member
Yes I've noticed that Sweetwater and some other sellers do seem to have specs which I don't see on the Zildjian web site. I'm not sure if the specs used to be on the public section of the Zildjian site and were removed in some "makeover", or were just in some private area for retailers. There is actually a lot of information available.
Zildjian used to post that info on the public part of their site, which is why I wonder if some numbskull is now in charge of marketing, because it's just plain dumb to have purposely gone out of their way to have removed it.

BTW, I just inquired with The Cymbal Vault about a new A Custom 14" Crash they have for sale, to see what it weighed, and I was told it was 675 grams. That's what a 14" A Fast Crashes weigh, so is the A Custom line THAT much lighter, or is that person incorrect? If that's correct, then that would mean the A Custom Fast Crashes must be Tissue Paper Thin. What are your thoughts on this, Zenstat?
 

zenstat

Well-known member
I'll have to put a bit of analysis work in as I don't have a ready answer. I'm still part way through putting together the overview of weight classes for A Zildjian cymbals from 1930 to present. That's a lot of diameters and a lot of decades and I started off with 22". I haven't made it down to 14" yet. I'm still stuck in the 1930s to 1960s in the A Series ride cymbals. ;)

I'm also not really familiar with the A Custom 14" cymbal models. A quick look has already told me that at present there isn't a Thin Crash named as such in the A Custom lineup. It looks like the A Custom 14" Crash is the Thin weight class model and there is also an A Custom Fast Crash. So far I've found

A Zildjian Fast 692g, 720g
A Custom Crash 675g, 742g, 792g, 810g
A Custom Fast Crash 639g, 694g

With this small amount of data it is possible that the 675g weight you were told is correct and represents the lower end of the distribution. There would then be an overlap between the A Custom Crash distribution and the A Custom Fast Crash distribution which is something we find when we look closely at other models and diameters. I have reasonably detailed information on how the weight classes changed in the 2013 redesign of the A Zildjian cymbals, and have documented the New Beat changes through cymbal weights which shows that we can pick up the changes:


And the larger sweep of history is here


I don't know if the A Custom line has gone through similar but less documented changes at some point.
 

zenstat

Well-known member
Going right back to your first post, if you are looking for a Hi Hat top, my favorite pairing is

14" 1960s 732g
14" 1960s 1120g

I had the bottom and went looking for a top at the weight I knew (from my New Beats research which shows a 2:3 weight ratio) should work well. 60s 14" cymbals are plentiful and inexpensive. You won't be likely to find one with THIN ink although they do exist. This is a 776g example

NB-thin-top-ink.jpg


Reconstructing weight classes means finding these occasional cymbals which still have their weight class ink. So if you do find a cymbal and there is any weight or model ink, please do let me know. Every new data point helps.
 
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