The Importance of Musicians

stevedrum

Member
I was thinking about what importance musicians have in our lives. We seek for current musicians for entertainment, we study about past composers and we aspire to be the future musicians. I believe music gives a clear picture of the society at the time it was made. If we look at 70s music it gives a clear idea of the culture, trends, technology, beliefs etc of that era. So is music just a form of entertainment or is it also a reflection of our society??

My opinion is that it is both and this is why we have to try to make the best music as we have to keep in mind that people in a 100 years time will be looking at our music and from that derive what kind of generation we are. What do you think they will derive from our music in 100 years time?? and what will they think about us??
 

tehxGuardian

Junior Member
I think it's definitely both.

I mean, pop-music wise, in order to entertain, a song must meet certain criterion which reflect the nature of the target audience.
 

azrae1l

Silver Member
what will people think of us in 100 years.........

given what i see the most and what seems to be popular, we're all 12 year old nympho ex disney star girls and gender bending 14 year old boys who play video games and smoke way too much pot.....





but this is open to interpretation too
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
what will people think of us in 100 years.........

given what i see the most and what seems to be popular, we're all 12 year old nympho ex disney star girls and gender bending 14 year old boys who play video games and smoke way too much pot.....





but this is open to interpretation too
That's funny! Scary that it might even be true!

Tough question though, because I don't think people (artists/musicians) are thinking in terms of what people will say about them after they're gone. Look at Jaco Pastorius, Jimi Hendrix, Keith Moon...Kurt Cobain....artists we all admire but I doubt any of those guys cared what other people thought of them - hence why they're artists!

Geddy Lee of Rush said it best in a video that being a musician isn't that noble of a profession, yet he was grateful people liked him and his band. Look at nurses and doctors, scientists, political leaders...semi-selfless people devoted to helping others. I'm not sure the artist is the selfless person he might appear to be. But after Geddy said that, I began to reflect on it and I think it's true. Being an artist/musician isn't about other people. It's about the artist/musician. Rush didn't write those songs because they thought about who would like it, they wrote it because they wanted to write about it. The fact that the consuming public buys it is another matter, yes?
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
Musicians are only important to us if music is important to us. Then depending on the person, if you can play multiple instruments, they may be less important since you can entertain yourself. There are a lot of entertainers I like, but like everything else in life they come and go. I have never stood up and screamed at a concert for any individual or band and yet I see plenty that do. So the degree of importance depends on the person.
 

Travis22

Senior Member
I think it reflects our society to some degree. Just like a painter, musicians draw their inspiration from different things. The common being what's happening to them or around them at the particular moment. But why should we care what people will say or think in 100 years? We won't be around and they are not my target audience, so I say let them think we "smokey way too much pot."
 

Tommyland

Member
That's funny! Scary that it might even be true!

Tough question though, because I don't think people (artists/musicians) are thinking in terms of what people will say about them after they're gone. Look at Jaco Pastorius, Jimi Hendrix, Keith Moon...Kurt Cobain....artists we all admire but I doubt any of those guys cared what other people thought of them - hence why they're artists!

Geddy Lee of Rush said it best in a video that being a musician isn't that noble of a profession, yet he was grateful people liked him and his band. Look at nurses and doctors, scientists, political leaders...semi-selfless people devoted to helping others. I'm not sure the artist is the selfless person he might appear to be. But after Geddy said that, I began to reflect on it and I think it's true. Being an artist/musician isn't about other people. It's about the artist/musician. Rush didn't write those songs because they thought about who would like it, they wrote it because they wanted to write about it. The fact that the consuming public buys it is another matter, yes?
I would contest that all those dead artists certainly did care what other (particular) people thought of them. This whole “I don't care what people think” attitude is a front, something lots of people say so nobody, god forbid, accusses them of looking needy or insecure. Cobain definitely did care what people thought of him. Look at how he treated his rise to fame. He was never able to reconcile his commitment to alternative music/punk ideology with the popular success of Nirvana. Cobain fancied himself as a rebel spirit but soon witnessed his music transformed into a commodity.

All musicians who take up playing an instrument or join a band, usually do so out of a basic desire to be liked by others. Self-expression does stem from a desire to be liked. No, you're not playing music publicly because it is your “calling” in life or because it “feels right”, even though many will make up these ad hoc explanations as though they are some kind of religious missionary, we all play for reasons that have to do with being liked by others. Maybe there are some bedroom musicians who play alone, and tell noone they are a musicians, but I'll bet they are in the minority.

I'm not denying that playing music can be a huge source of fun (it is fun), but why do you think we perceive it as fun? The reason humans like music at all in the first place, is because it played a pivotal function in our evolution; a vehicle for social bonding, mating, etc. Seriously, think of music back in primitive times; it was tribal drums and rhythms, it was about group solidarity and bringing people together. Fitting-in with the group and being liked by others was very important to people back then if you wanted to benefit from the group.

That said, wanting to be liked by others isn't the same as wanting to be a rock star ego-maniac. Obviously, some people want to be liked more than others. They want to be showered with adulation. I'm sure some artists desire to be huge so that they will be remembered in years to come; it's the closest thing to immortality I guess.

There's already been many TV shows where they look back at one hit wonders and other songs of the times and it has to be said, sometimes it's like looking at a photo album and noticing all your bad haircuts.

Who knows what future generations will think.
 

azrae1l

Silver Member
I would contest that all those dead artists certainly did care what other (particular) people thought of them. This whole “I don't care what people think” attitude is a front, something lots of people say so nobody, god forbid, accusses them of looking needy or insecure. Cobain definitely did care what people thought of him. Look at how he treated his rise to fame. He was never able to reconcile his commitment to alternative music/punk ideology with the popular success of Nirvana. Cobain fancied himself as a rebel spirit but soon witnessed his music transformed into a commodity.

All musicians who take up playing an instrument or join a band, usually do so out of a basic desire to be liked by others. Self-expression does stem from a desire to be liked. No, you're not playing music publicly because it is your “calling” in life or because it “feels right”, even though many will make up these ad hoc explanations as though they are some kind of religious missionary, we all play for reasons that have to do with being liked by others. Maybe there are some bedroom musicians who play alone, and tell noone they are a musicians, but I'll bet they are in the minority.

I'm not denying that playing music can be a huge source of fun (it is fun), but why do you think we perceive it as fun? The reason humans like music at all in the first place, is because it played a pivotal function in our evolution; a vehicle for social bonding, mating, etc. Seriously, think of music back in primitive times; it was tribal drums and rhythms, it was about group solidarity and bringing people together. Fitting-in with the group and being liked by others was very important to people back then if you wanted to benefit from the group.

That said, wanting to be liked by others isn't the same as wanting to be a rock star ego-maniac. Obviously, some people want to be liked more than others. They want to be showered with adulation. I'm sure some artists desire to be huge so that they will be remembered in years to come; it's the closest thing to immortality I guess.

There's already been many TV shows where they look back at one hit wonders and other songs of the times and it has to be said, sometimes it's like looking at a photo album and noticing all your bad haircuts.

Who knows what future generations will think.
realy, huh....

i coulda swore i took up playing before being liked by people mattered to me. i also coulda swore i took up playing cuz i actually enjoyed it. i play in a band but it sure isn't becuase people like me for it, as a matter of fact it's quite the opposite. i play with friends i've had for years, we hardly ever perform live and if we do it's becuase another band that happens to be our friends asks us to fill a slot. we also hardly record, hardly sell a cd, have no aspirations of being rock stars, no aspirations of having fans, don't really care if people even enjoy our music, we don't usually allow outsiders of the group to even come into our studio and hang out and really don't socialize with the other musicians in the building. we play strictly for our own enjoyment, nothing more. and there are tons of people out there just like us, i would even hazard to say those few bedroom musicians might outnumber the actual musicians.

i find music fun becuase it's an outlet for my creativity and i enjoy (for lack of a better term) making sounds, if i never played with another person or infront of another person or if anybody ever knew i even played anything would not matter to me in the least. i also draw or paint for the same reasons and now that i think about it i can count only 3 people that have ever seen anything i have drawn or painted.

when i hit on women, i can't think of a single time i've ever said i play. my last serious girlfriend i dated for a year before she ever knew i owned a guitar. when i socialize at bars or whatever i don't come out and talk about me playing.

now i don't really hide it either, if they ask i will tell. but to me, being a musician isn't impressive, it's just something i do, like most people watch movies, or bake, or ride a bike.

there are those people who do play to get noticed rather they have an ego or not but to say all musicians do it to be liked for whatever reason is nonsence. i bet it's less then a quarter who do it to be liked, some people enjoy the spot light, some people enjoy seeing others enjoy their craft, some people like the thrill of performing infront of others, others do it to be part of a group. there are probably just as many reasons as what there are musicians and not all do it to be liked. i can see where some reasons stem from a need to be liked, being part of a group, clicks in school, people of similar intrests, but that is not everybody.
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
I would contest that all those dead artists certainly did care what other (particular) people thought of them. This whole “I don't care what people think” attitude is a front, something lots of people say so nobody, god forbid, accusses them of looking needy or insecure. Cobain definitely did care what people thought of him. Look at how he treated his rise to fame. He was never able to reconcile his commitment to alternative music/punk ideology with the popular success of Nirvana. Cobain fancied himself as a rebel spirit but soon witnessed his music transformed into a commodity.

All musicians who take up playing an instrument or join a band, usually do so out of a basic desire to be liked by others. Self-expression does stem from a desire to be liked. No, you're not playing music publicly because it is your “calling” in life or because it “feels right”, even though many will make up these ad hoc explanations as though they are some kind of religious missionary, we all play for reasons that have to do with being liked by others. Maybe there are some bedroom musicians who play alone, and tell noone they are a musicians, but I'll bet they are in the minority.

I'm not denying that playing music can be a huge source of fun (it is fun), but why do you think we perceive it as fun? The reason humans like music at all in the first place, is because it played a pivotal function in our evolution; a vehicle for social bonding, mating, etc. Seriously, think of music back in primitive times; it was tribal drums and rhythms, it was about group solidarity and bringing people together. Fitting-in with the group and being liked by others was very important to people back then if you wanted to benefit from the group.

That said, wanting to be liked by others isn't the same as wanting to be a rock star ego-maniac. Obviously, some people want to be liked more than others. They want to be showered with adulation. I'm sure some artists desire to be huge so that they will be remembered in years to come; it's the closest thing to immortality I guess.

There's already been many TV shows where they look back at one hit wonders and other songs of the times and it has to be said, sometimes it's like looking at a photo album and noticing all your bad haircuts.

Who knows what future generations will think.
This may be partly true, but as azrae said, it isn't true for everyone. In fact, I may argue that if you are playing a musical instrument to be loved, does this mean that you stop playing when you've acquired enough love? A person's happiness must come from within, nothing on the outside can substitute for it. This would be akin to thinking having a child will make an unhappy marriage stable, and it never does. Those two people are just stuck together through their unhappiness (or, as they do moreso in California than anywhere else, they divorce and the kid becomes a 50-50 statistic).

I stand by what I said earlier, musicians are in it for themselves. I certainly am. I think it's more of a facade when I see an artist actually care about something, if you pardon my jaded-ness.
 
C

Crazy8s

Guest
I am gonna agree with Tommyland here.

I started playing drums for two reasons; a primordial in-born urge to rock and secondly the desire to get lots of girls despite my decidedly non-jock and skinny build.

If you show a girl what a drummers fingers can do, you are in it. It is that simple, but some stick twirling and downright rockin makes it even easier.

I play drums for me and I make music for others.
 

Tommyland

Member
realy, huh....

i coulda swore i took up playing before being liked by people mattered to me. i also coulda swore i took up playing cuz i actually enjoyed it. i play in a band but it sure isn't becuase people like me for it, as a matter of fact it's quite the opposite. i play with friends i've had for years, we hardly ever perform live and if we do it's becuase another band that happens to be our friends asks us to fill a slot. we also hardly record, hardly sell a cd, have no aspirations of being rock stars, no aspirations of having fans, don't really care if people even enjoy our music, we don't usually allow outsiders of the group to even come into our studio and hang out and really don't socialize with the other musicians in the building. we play strictly for our own enjoyment, nothing more. and there are tons of people out there just like us, i would even hazard to say those few bedroom musicians might outnumber the actual musicians.

i find music fun becuase it's an outlet for my creativity and i enjoy (for lack of a better term) making sounds, if i never played with another person or infront of another person or if anybody ever knew i even played anything would not matter to me in the least. i also draw or paint for the same reasons and now that i think about it i can count only 3 people that have ever seen anything i have drawn or painted.

when i hit on women, i can't think of a single time i've ever said i play. my last serious girlfriend i dated for a year before she ever knew i owned a guitar. when i socialize at bars or whatever i don't come out and talk about me playing.

now i don't really hide it either, if they ask i will tell. but to me, being a musician isn't impressive, it's just something i do, like most people watch movies, or bake, or ride a bike.

there are those people who do play to get noticed rather they have an ego or not but to say all musicians do it to be liked for whatever reason is nonsence. i bet it's less then a quarter who do it to be liked, some people enjoy the spot light, some people enjoy seeing others enjoy their craft, some people like the thrill of performing infront of others, others do it to be part of a group. there are probably just as many reasons as what there are musicians and not all do it to be liked. i can see where some reasons stem from a need to be liked, being part of a group, clicks in school, people of similar intrests, but that is not everybody.
There’s a reason why I highlighted a part of my post in bold.

For some reason, when you point out that musicians want to be liked by other people (as ALL people do, given that we are social primates) some inevitably take offense to this notion as though they are being accused of being ego-driven or something.

That’s not the case, but practically everything people do is done with other people in mind.

I get that you play in a band, and aren’t in it for fame, glory and adulation. But this is a minority. That you have only shown 3 people your paintings is very rare and not true of most people.

A generalisation can never be true of every single case, but true for the majority. Most people do want to be liked by other people, and have their music enjoyed by other people (even the smallest number of people) much like we all do.

I guess, it’s a bit redundant pointing out this basic fact of human behaviour, as though it’s some kind of new discovery. It’s not, but to deny it, is to deny what makes us human.

No one is calling all musicians self-centred rock stars, but it is driven by social needs, which are; acceptance, love, or what have you.

It wasn't my intention to cause offense, but this is something I recognise in alot of musicians and their behaviours (as well as their shtick about how they're "not doing it to be liked").
 

Travis22

Senior Member
I don't quite agree with you on that Tommy. I don't think all musicians, or even the majority, have persued music because of this inner desire to be liked. Yes, the goal is to perform in front of people, but I for one don't care which people they are. But yet in my "social life" I do care who I surround myself with. Big difference between the two in my opinion.

Just like any other profession, the more people that like what you do the more sucessful you'll be. So yes, to some degree I want to be "liked" as a musician. But I want them to like the music...not me. I play for me and write for the audience.
 

Tommyland

Member
I don't quite agree with you on that Tommy. I don't think all musicians, or even the majority, have persued music because of this inner desire to be liked. Yes, the goal is to perform in front of people, but I for one don't care which people they are. But yet in my "social life" I do care who I surround myself with. Big difference between the two in my opinion.

Just like any other profession, the more people that like what you do the more sucessful you'll be. So yes, to some degree I want to be "liked" as a musician. But I want them to like the music...not me. I play for me and write for the audience.
But if they like your music, you derive personal pleasure from such knowledge, right? Or would you be indifferent? As long as you make money, you don't care? Is that correct? Even if you released your music anonymously, but knew that people thought it was amazing, are you telling me you wouldn't care at all?

This is what I'm talking about.

Even if you just play by yourself, in your bedroom/basement and tell noone you're a musician, you still enjoy music because the human brain is hardwired to find pleasure in musical patterns, organised sound and the opportunity to be creative. But it is hardwired this way for reasons that had to do with being liked by others, for mating purposes, etc.

When musicians say they don't care what people think, does that apply to people who like their music too, or is it a statement intended for the people who don't like the music? Because if you're going to say you don't care what people think, you'd have to include everyone in this, no? Or else it's just a vacuous statement.

“We don't care what people think, we play for ourselves” ... yet, we still read reviews and take pride in the fact that people do enjoy our music....

Doesn't that betray the position of claiming to not care what people think?

I'll be up front and admit, I do care what people think. But I'm not obsessed about it either because you can't please everyone.
 

Travis22

Senior Member
But if they like your music, you derive personal pleasure from such knowledge, right? Or would you be indifferent? As long as you make money, you don't care? Is that correct? Even if you released your music anonymously, but knew that people thought it was amazing, are you telling me you wouldn't care at all?

This is what I'm talking about.

Even if you just play by yourself, in your bedroom/basement and tell noone you're a musician, you still enjoy music because the human brain is hardwired to find pleasure in musical patterns, organised sound and the opportunity to be creative. But it is hardwired this way for reasons that had to do with being liked by others, for mating purposes, etc.

When musicians say they don't care what people think, does that apply to people who like their music too, or is it a statement intended for the people who don't like the music? Because if you're going to say you don't care what people think, you'd have to include everyone in this, no? Or else it's just a vacuous statement.

“We don't care what people think, we play for ourselves” ... yet, we still read reviews and take pride in the fact that people do enjoy our music....

Doesn't that betray the position of claiming to not care what people think?

I'll be up front and admit, I do care what people think. But I'm not obsessed about it either because you can't please everyone.
Yes, it applies to everyone. The only time I care is when I'm trying to get the last open spot in the symphony or I'm covering someone elses music and I'm trying to do it justice. Other than that, you can like me or you can hate me, but I'm goin to play what I want to play. I'm not going to create something with the thought in mind of "who is going to like this song?" If I did, none of my bands songs would ever get done and we would never book a show because of fear the whole city wouldn't show up. I mean, come on now. Just like Michelagelo didn't make art that everyone cared for, I'm not going to write songs that everyone cares for. I can accept that. And if booking shows/gigs becomes hard to do, then I'll join another band that does covers and books those party gigs and plays what everyone wants to hear. But that isn't a problem I'm having at the moment
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
For me, music is not just entertainment and a reflection of our society, but an art form as well. A way for musician to express themselves. Their own personal feelings, beliefs, and ideas.

A generalisation can never be true of every single case, but true for the majority. Most people do want to be liked by other people, and have their music enjoyed by other people (even the smallest number of people) much like we all do.
I agree with this, and I think this may be where the argument is stemming from. I think all musicians want to be appreciated. However, just because a musician wants to be appreciated DOESN'T mean that they're sacrificing playing what they like to play. On the contrary, I think that when a musician is playing their own music it's an even greater feeling to know that your music is liked and appreciated.

Look at Thelonious Monk. Could anybody possibly be more original than him? I mean, NOBODY sounded like this man, and I don't think anybody ever has since then. Although many have covered his songs, most are just doing their own interpretations, playing their own solos. Very few actually copies Monk's solos note for note. So I think you can still be original and at the same time want people to share your music with and want people to enjoy your music. You can still play YOUR music and do that.
 

Travis22

Senior Member
For me, music is not just entertainment and a reflection of our society, but an art form as well. A way for musician to express themselves. Their own personal feelings, beliefs, and ideas.



I agree with this, and I think this may be where the argument is stemming from. I think all musicians want to be appreciated. However, just because a musician wants to be appreciated DOESN'T mean that they're sacrificing playing what they like to play. On the contrary, I think that when a musician is playing their own music it's an even greater feeling to know that your music is liked and appreciated.

Look at Thelonious Monk. Could anybody possibly be more original than him? I mean, NOBODY sounded like this man, and I don't think anybody ever has since then. Although many have covered his songs, most are just doing their own interpretations, playing their own solos. Very few actually copies Monk's solos note for note. So I think you can still be original and at the same time want people to share your music with and want people to enjoy your music. You can still play YOUR music and do that.
Fair enough. Good post. I totally agree that being appreciated gives a musician, or anyone, a great since of accomplishment. And of coarse, no matter what you're playing, you want people to be able to enjoy it. I'm just saying, in relation to the topic, being liked should have no impact on why a musician plays or does what he/she does...unless it's solely for a paycheck. And to me, that's where a person starts getting into a whole different topic.
 

Tommyland

Member
I'm not going to create something with the thought in mind of "who is going to like this song?" If I did, none of my bands songs would ever get done and we would never book a show because of fear the whole city wouldn't show up. I mean, come on now. Just like Michelangelo didn't make art that everyone cared for, I'm not going to write songs that everyone cares for.
It sounds like you’re setting up a false dichotomy there. That wanting to be liked by other people somehow means one will be writing music that they don’t enjoy, compromising their artistic vision and just doing it to please others. I don’t know where you get this notion from but I never implied that was the case.

Musicians certainly do seek validation from others for their creative efforts, and that validation is another way of saying, they want to be liked by others. It’s tautology, I guess.

However, just because a musician wants to be appreciated DOESN'T mean that they're sacrificing playing what they like to play.
Exactly. I think people are reading into it too much and projecting their own thoughts about what it means to want to be liked by others.

Practically everything humans do is done with other people in mind. We are social primates after all. If you really didn’t care what other people thought about you, why not take the bus into the city wearing a dressing gown and slippers? Why even bother to shave, or gel/style your hair? If you really don’t care what other people think, I mean, you wouldn’t give a damn, right? But people do act certain ways because they want to stand out and fit in at the same time. We all care what certain people think of us.

I don’t see how writing music suddenly escapes these rules. Now, if you are keeping your music private and not playing it to anyone, then OK, that’s an exception (in a minority I’d imagine). But then again, people often write with an imaginary audience in mind. They are writing music based on what people have enjoyed in the past, as a reference group.

So, to me, it just seems a bit redundant saying “we write music for ourselves”. Well of course you do, but that doesn’t mean you’re indifferent to outside critics and negative opinions. If your audience started boo-ing at one of your songs, I’m pretty sure that song would get dropped from the set-list, even if you happened to like it.
 

Duracell

Senior Member
Just to add a bit of extra thought material here.

Whenever I play in front of an audienceI try to play my best. I don't fool around and I don't take risks. Even more so when I'm playing with musicians that have way more experienced than me and could easily call me on something I fudged. And the rush I get when people start grooving out in the audience is undescribable. I'm not playing drums just for the sake of performing, but it's damn good fun and we all know it.
 

BassDriver

Silver Member
I stand by what I said earlier, musicians are in it for themselves. I certainly am. I think it's more of a facade when I see an artist actually care about something, if you pardon my jaded-ness.
All human behaviour is done in self-interest, we care about what others think because it concerns us.

I hate how people label artists/bands that get signed and make lots of money "sell-outs"...

"...hmm...so you don't want your music to be heard by people outside of your small circle of musicians...?"
 

azrae1l

Silver Member
Practically everything humans do is done with other people in mind. We are social primates after all.
ok you've been saying this threw this whole post and i just kinda let it go by but i'm gonna say it now. you've got this concept backwards.

being a social animal doesn't mean you seek out pleasing others, this means you search out others who are pleased in the same ways. you seek out people of similar interest to be social with, a common bond, kindred spirits, social clicks. you do not listen to a certain kind of music so people like you, nor eat a certain type of food or like a certain color. you also don't attract friends and social groups, you seek them out by how you convey your interests. these things are primarily done for personal pleasure.

then you add in "for mating purposes" which is another entirely different standard that people do which is mostly physical. people working out, being healthy and fit, ripped abs, good perfume, nice clothes. these are things people do to attract others not make music.

making music was never done to to attract others, music was invented as an entertaining way of passing on history and beliefs from one generation to another. you keep saying primate, well look at how primates attract others. they fight, they intimidate the others just like teenagers do huh? i've yet to see a monkey break out into song to get a female in the mood.

then you ask how did music suddenly escape these rules. well your rules are a little misconstrued for one. 2 music was never out of the rules, it's still being used in the same ways it was original conceived, to pass on ideas, history and beliefs not to stand out and be accepted.

there are a certain amount of women who would find a musician sexy, and just as many musicians who do it knowing this fact. there are also some who do it to stand out and be remembered. but for the most part people make music as a personal interest and entertainment and they will continue to do so rather people enjoy it or not, prime example? i don't see the village people retiring and their pretty much a laughing stock anymore. this why retired musicians still play, why terrible musicians still play, why people learn, why others give up before they even get any good. simply because it's a personal interest. people will not spend years and years honing skills in the possibility that 'somebody MIGHT like them' or they 'COULD be accepted'.

would people drop a song others boo at from a set list? i can name hundreds of songs that should have been dropped long before the stage yet they keep getting played. not only are people social animals their also arrogant and selfish and i can guarantee their own interests and desires take priority over the audience so yeah if a musician likes a song enough he'll endure constant booing to play it and he'll just tell himself they have no taste. the only time this isn't going happen is when they desire money more and whoever is paying them don't like it or they desperately need approval and give up because it's not going well.



ok, i'm not going to take this any further. but i will add, this is a lot like Freud thinking everybody wants to sleep with their mother simply cuz he did.....
 
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