That's Not What I've Been Told! Drum Sound Physics

In my experience, I like thin shells (if done right and the mass attached to the shell is considered along with other factors like custom ply/edge) or thicker shells. The shell transfer vibration is very sensitive...if my floor tom is shell is touch anything (eg. stick bag), it totally changes.

On the other hand, I've really come to like the sound of Mastertone Eames 12ply though I'd like to hear a full kit in person, but the snare has tone of headroom and depth. But the headroom and low end on these sound huge and incredible. Perhaps that that is the phonic effect like the thick beech.

The medium thickness sound flat to me, very narrow tuning range, tempermental…but good on snares.
 
Bearing edges, type and thickness of hoops, and the weight of the hardware attached to the shell all play a major part too.

If someone just wants to hear the heads, they could just use a big diameter, thick, heavy sewer pipe for a shell. :ROFLMAO:
 
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Bearing edges, type and thickness of hoops, and the weight of the hardware attached to the shell all play a major part too.

If someone just want so hear the heads, they could just use a big diameter, thick, heavy sewer pipe for a shell. :ROFLMAO:

You know Hinger did this back in the 60s, right? Those sewer pipe drums are sought-after. Incredibly sensitive.

See, the thick shell thing works really well for snares, but not everyone wants that sound for toms. *shrug*
 
You know Hinger did this back in the 60s, right? Those sewer pipe drums are sought-after. Incredibly sensitive.

See, the thick shell thing works really well for snares, but not everyone wants that sound for toms. *shrug*

:eek: No - I didn't know that.
And I thought you were joking until I did a search for it.
 
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not a rototom
 
So why do we use different woods? Why do some people prefer some tonewoods over others? Why is there such a difference of opinion on the sound of different woods? You do know that thinner shells bring out the sound of the wood itself more than thicker shells, I’m sure. So do you not ever prefer a specific tonewood over another? Just asking.
Again, that’s a different topic. The video simply points out that a shell of less mass resonates more than a shell of more mass and that by doing so dissipates more energy from the drum head.

If one was comparing let’s say Goodyear tires to Firestone tires and you thought one was better than the other that conclusion would only be valid if you tried the tires both on the same car on the same course. But if one was comparing the “sound” of let’s say walnut to maple you must first remove all other factors except the wood itself.

When “the sound of wood” is the topic it almost always never considers making two shells exactly the same with the wood species being the only variable. For example, if someone compares a 7mm walnut shell with a 7mm maple shell the wood is not the only variable because the stiffness (mass) of the two shells are different. Not that it would be easy to do, but if you got the stiffness and mass of the shells to be identical and then only the wood was different whatever differences you may have heard would be reduced by a couple orders of magnitude. If you match the stiffness (resistance to flexing) then you can compare woods, but if you are just matching shell thicknesses then you are comparing stiffness, not wood.
 
Again, that’s a different topic. The video simply points out that a shell of less mass resonates more than a shell of more mass and that by doing so dissipates more energy from the drum head.

If one was comparing let’s say Goodyear tires to Firestone tires and you thought one was better than the other that conclusion would only be valid if you tried the tires both on the same car on the same course. But if one was comparing the “sound” of let’s say walnut to maple you must first remove all other factors except the wood itself.

When “the sound of wood” is the topic it almost always never considers making two shells exactly the same with the wood species being the only variable. For example, if someone compares a 7mm walnut shell with a 7mm maple shell the wood is not the only variable because the stiffness (mass) of the two shells are different. Not that it would be easy to do, but if you got the stiffness and mass of the shells to be identical and then only the wood was different whatever differences you may have heard would be reduced by a couple orders of magnitude. If you match the stiffness (resistance to flexing) then you can compare woods, but if you are just matching shell thicknesses then you are comparing stiffness, not wood.

You didn’t answer most of my questions, which is understandable, given that they’re more relevant than the little man in your video. Go tell guitar players that wood species doesn’t matter.
 
Bearing edges, type and thickness of hoops, and the weight of the hardware attached to the shell all play a major part too.

If someone just wants to hear the heads, they could just use a big diameter, thick, heavy sewer pipe for a shell. :ROFLMAO:
Sonor actually said that if you wrap a shell in cement it will sound better..serious. 😃.
 
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Sonor actually said that if you wrap a shell in cement it will sound better..serious. 😃.
That cement snare DW makes is pretty crappy sounding to me, so forgive me if I don’t agree with Sonor about cement. However I would listen to Phil Rudd any day of the week on his Sonors ;)
 
Basic physics of a hollow cylinder and if made with wood ply each wood has its own anisotropic biomechanical properties and with ply you get boundary effects also in layers. Then again it’s all in the head LOL
 
Again, that’s a different topic. The video simply points out that a shell of less mass resonates more than a shell of more mass and that by doing so dissipates more energy from the drum head.

If one was comparing let’s say Goodyear tires to Firestone tires and you thought one was better than the other that conclusion would only be valid if you tried the tires both on the same car on the same course. But if one was comparing the “sound” of let’s say walnut to maple you must first remove all other factors except the wood itself.

When “the sound of wood” is the topic it almost always never considers making two shells exactly the same with the wood species being the only variable. For example, if someone compares a 7mm walnut shell with a 7mm maple shell the wood is not the only variable because the stiffness (mass) of the two shells are different. Not that it would be easy to do, but if you got the stiffness and mass of the shells to be identical and then only the wood was different whatever differences you may have heard would be reduced by a couple orders of magnitude. If you match the stiffness (resistance to flexing) then you can compare woods, but if you are just matching shell thicknesses then you are comparing stiffness, not wood.
Isn't the point of using different woods exactly that - to get a different result because the woods have different stiffness, density, porosity, grain structure, and hardness? If the variable we change is the wood, it's because we want to hear the difference those changes in stiffness, density, porosity, grain structure, and hardness produce.

The Sonor drums sound great, no question, but they don't produce the only great sound.

Also, I think the phrase "dissipates" more energy from the head may be misleading. Dissipates implies a loss, rather than a transfer.

For what it's worth, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I like the Sonors. I like Gurus. I like the sound of the Peaveys I've heard. I like my Ludwigs, Tamas and Yamahas, too. I just recognize the information in the Sonor catalog as what it is - marketing.

Edit - I do give credit to Sonor for basing their marketing on science, at least. A lot of marketing is utter bullsheet.
 
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I believe it's marketing as well..but marketing of the best sounding drums in the 🌎. 😃. Once I'd heard the phonics on records everything id read in (inside sonor) became fact (to me). Something bugs me though. Why didn't I like Pearls reference series drums or Mapex Orion series drums.
 
I believe it's marketing as well..but marketing of the best sounding drums in the 🌎. 😃. Once I'd heard the phonics on records everything id read in (inside sonor) became fact (to me). Something bugs me though. Why didn't I like Pearls reference series drums or Mapex Orion series drums.
How about the Yamaha PHX, or whatever they are/were? They sound fantastic! I just don't want a drum kit that weighs more than the car I load it into. 😁
 
Isn't the point of using different woods exactly that - to get a different result because the woods have different stiffness, density, porosity, grain structure, and hardness? If the variable we change is the wood, it's because we want to hear the difference those changes in stiffness, density, porosity, grain structure, and hardness produce.

The Sonor drums sound great, no question, but they don't produce the only great sound.

Also, I think the phrase "dissipates" more energy from the head may be misleading. Dissipates implies a loss, rather than a transfer.

For what it's worth, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I like the Sonors. I like Gurus. I like the sound of the Peaveys I've heard. I like my Ludwigs, Tamas and Yamahas, too. I just recognize the information in the Sonor catalog as what it is - marketing.
Yes, exactly. But the ”wood” isn’t the point of the video. The property of physics is. You are welcome to plug in any wood (or other construction you want) into the principle.

As far as “dissipates”, the word to a scientist actually means to transform not to lose. the dissipation he is talking about is the transformation (reduction) of loudness (Which by itself is neither a good thing or a bad thing) into primarily heat in the shell. The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another
 
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Yes, exactly. But the ”wood” isn’t the point of the video. The property of physics is. You are welcome to plug in any wood (or other construction you want) into the principle.

As far as “dissipates”, the word to a scientist actually means to transform not to lose. the dissipation he is talking about is the transformation (reduction) of loudness (Which by itself is neither a good thing or a bad thing) into primarily heat in the shell. The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another
Well, the actual definition of dissipate to the layman is "to disappear or cause to disappear." In physics it is "to cause energy to be lost, typically in the form of heat." Both imply loss, which in the marketing sense is a negative, unless we're talking about weight. 😉

Is the energy transferred from the head to a thin shell actually dissipated as heat, or is it used to excite vibration in the shell? Did Sonor measure the heat loss in various shell thicknesses?

We're just batting around semantics and technicalities at this point. The fact is, thick shells sound different than thin shells, for reasons related to mechanics/physics. Which one likes is completely subjective. :)
 
Is the energy transferred from the head to a thin shell actually dissipated as heat, or is it used to excite vibration in the shell? Did Sonor measure the heat loss in various shell thicknesses?

We're just batting around semantics and technicalities at this point. The fact is, thick shells sound different than thin shells, for reasons related to mechanics/physics. Which one likes is completely subjective. :)
Yes, it primarily is dissipated as heat. Heat is the transfer of energy from one medium to another. What we measure as heat is the vibration of molecules. The more they vibrate, the hotter they are (think about microwave ovens). A hot piece of steel simply has it’s molecules within it moving faster than a cold piece of steel.

I haven’t said that different shells do not affect the sound you hear. They most certainly do and which one you like is of course subjective. I think the problem is that viewers of this video are being confused as there are two things being presented. One is the physics … the process that is taking place. And two, the author‘s stated preference for sound. But what I am trying to say is that no matter your preference, the actual physical property takes place in any and all cases.

The way the shell influences the sound of a drum is primarily based on it’s dimensions and it’s stiffness. The more it vibrates, the more it influences (changes) the sound of the head itself. Mostly a vibrating shell is subtracting some very small but specific tones from the head leaving you a finished product you can like or dislike. The dimensions are important as they affect the wavelengths that are created in the shell and then mixed with the tuning of the head. Picture a guitar string tuned to a specific tension. If you change the length while keeping the tension the same, you get a different frequency.

Just remember it is the stiffness that counts. Difference woods have different stiffnesses. And if the construction of two shells if the same them they will be at least some differences in sound. However if the construction of the shell equalizes the differences in stiffness there will be nearly zero difference. So you could construct, if you wanted to, a very stiff walnut (pick any wood you want or metal or anything else) shell or a less stiff walnut shell. They would sound different. So you can’t hold the walnut itself as the primary shaper of the sound … it is the stiffness that is.
 
Quick..im on break at work. I can't let this thread die..i need to read every response and add thoughts of my own. This (to me) is a verrrry important matter and all of you are needed.
 
I've owned Milestone drums and they're like thunder . Extremely thin shells .

I've also owned Ludwig 6-plies that are formidable .

On a loud gig , the textural subtleties of a vintage WFL become inconsequential . On a quiet lounge gig , the projective energy of thick shells may become a liability .

1 st generation Milestones can do both . With the right heads and tuning, Phonics or 6-ply Ludwigs too.

.... in the hands of the right player . Drum shells will only take you so far , they can't do everything .
 
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