Rudimental Swing Solos?

[Jonathan Curtis]

I've been doing a lot of work into rudimental drumming recently, predominantly doing research for a book I am writing.

A term I keep coming across is rudimental "swing" solos. Wilcoxon famously has a book of them, and I recently found a book of pieces by Jack Shirley, in which he refers to them as rudimental "swing" solos.

Rick Dior discusses the use of the term in this video:

I am wondering, really, about the use of the word "swing", and how that came about. Rick explains that they're not intended to be played as a genuine swing, with the 16th notes modulated to triplets, but that they sort of "ride the line" between straight and swing, and that much of the vocabulary swings by itself.

It's an interesting term to apply to traditional rudimental drumming, which we typically associate with rigid military marching.

Does anyone have any further insights into the use of the term "swing" for rudimental solos of this nature?

 

[Caz]

Hi Jonathan, I doubt I'm adding much you don't already know.. and I haven't watched the video you posted.. the only reason I'm not scrolling on past is there are currently no other replies and it'd be nice to get your thread going.

My thought is to put it in the context of actual music that swings - Philly Joe practiced from the Wilcoxon books a lot, and if you step away from the books and just think in context of Philly Joe Jones solos you see a lot of similar vocabulary voiced around the kit, in a way that really swings. At some of those speeds I don't think it even matters if it's straight 16ths or 'in the cracks', more the language, sound and articulations. I do remember after spending quite a while on the usual books (John Ramsay, John Riley) that most of what I was playing was triplet based, and when I started listening/transcribing more, noticed Philly Joe was often not playing triplet based in his solos, which was a surprise. I spent some time trying to apply some of the graded snare type stuff I'd learned when younger, around the kit - even just between bass drum and snare, and it started to sound a bit more like what I was hearing on records.

Swing music has such a deep history.. My thoughts are as well as the blues side of things, the western rudimental drumming style is also in the mix. The drum kit is a relatively new instrument, and the foundations of swing music come from a background which stretches further back than the drum kit - when the drum kit arrived, it wouldn't be a surprise if existing drum vocabulary came with it. There weren't as many books to study from, apparently Philly Joe would walk around with Wilcoxon's Modern Rudimental Swing solos in his back pocket.

Caroline

 

[Jonathan Curtis]

Thanks Caz,

You make some good points. Rick talks about people like Philly Joe using this material, and it provides an interesting topic of thought. It's a fascinating idea to consider the influence of rudimental drumming within the swing idiom and the history of swing music; there are obviously some overlaps that reach both ways.

You've given me some fine food for thought.

 

[toddbishop]

That's the contemporary music of the period he was mostly writing in, his Drum Method book is all about that-- it's basically a drum set book for the 1930s, meaning it's mostly about snare drum and bass drum, and the bass drum doesn't do a whole lot.

I always assumed this was the approximate vibe:

they're not intended to be played as a genuine swing, with the 16th notes modulated to triplets

I'd be careful about a too simple definition of swing-- it's not just making "straight" rhythms into triplets. It's variable-- based not only on tempo-- and also has to do with accenting and internal dynamics, and doesn't preclude straight 8ths or straight 16ths.

A lot of the solos are easy to do in a straightforward swing interpretation: Flam Stomp, Swinging Accents, Roughing The Single Drag, Study In Accents, Modern Flam Accents, Sweet Susan.

Some of them make more sense from a swing perspective if you look at them as being written in 4/8, as a fast 4. Like Lorain Post Dug-Out-- the 8ths would be straight, and the 16ths swung a little bit. Old Sue is another one. I would not do that on Rolling In Rhythm. On Rhythmania and others I would only swing the 16ths when they're happening one or two at a time (and only at moderate tempos)-- definitely not on the longer runs of four or more 16ths. 16ths generally should be played legato.

 

[Bonnies1]

My short answer after skimming through the thread is it's hard not to think about this without thinking about Baby Dodds and New Orleans drumming. Which, of course was probably the first transfer of concert snare drumming to the street beat and the beginning of jazz and swing.

I'll have to think about this more though, and definitely read through the responses again.

 

[KCJazz]

"Beat Me, Daddy! Eight To The Bar" did not mean straight eighths. Boogie Woogie lies in a rhythmic no man's land.

 

[Jonathan Curtis]

That's the contemporary music of the period he was mostly writing in, his Drum Method book is all about that-- it's basically a drum set book for the 1930s, meaning it's mostly about snare drum and bass drum, and the bass drum doesn't do a whole lot.

I always assumed this was the approximate vibe:

I'd be careful about a too simple definition of swing-- it's not just making "straight" rhythms into triplets. It's variable-- based not only on tempo-- and also has to do with accenting and internal dynamics, and doesn't preclude straight 8ths or straight 16ths.

A lot of the solos are easy to do in a straightforward swing interpretation: Flam Stomp, Swinging Accents, Roughing The Single Drag, Study In Accents, Modern Flam Accents, Sweet Susan.

Some of them make more sense from a swing perspective if you look at them as being written in 4/8, as a fast 4. Like Lorain Post Dug-Out-- the 8ths would be straight, and the 16ths swung a little bit. Old Sue is another one. I would not do that on Rolling In Rhythm. On Rhythmania and others I would only swing the 16ths when they're happening one or two at a time (and only at moderate tempos)-- definitely not on the longer runs of four or more 16ths. 16ths generally should be played legato.

Excellent, you've given me lots to think about. Thanks.

 

[jazzerooty]

I think the "Swing" in the title refers to the syncopation of the rudiments in the solos. Lot's of phrases end on the "And." Off beat accents. Variations of the 26 rudiments that expands the musical possibilities in applying the rudiments. I've worked out of that book for 50 years. Spent an hour with it yesterday, and my chops woke up!

 

[Jonathan Curtis]

I think the "Swing" in the title refers to the syncopation of the rudiments in the solos. Lot's of phrases end on the "And." Off beat accents. Variations of the 26 rudiments that expands the musical possibilities in applying the rudiments. I've worked out of that book for 50 years. Spent an hour with it yesterday, and my chops woke up!

Yeah, good observation. It's a really interesting use of the term, and I think you're right with regards to the syncopation aspect.

And yes, they're a great work out, too!

 

[jazzerooty]

The book was pivotal for me; taught me how to APPLY rudiments to my playing. Swinging with them. Playing musically. It's not a project as tought to tackle as the kind of rudimental drumming in drum-and-bugle corps. They've taken it to an insane level. My son, who marched for for summers, has unbelievable chops, yet he's never studied Wilcoxon or even Stick Control.