Recording Emergency!!!!

tbmills

Gold Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

there should be a recording sub forum.
recording doesnt fit in other to me....

IMO it should be....
DRUM GEAR
>Drums
>Cymbals
>Hardware
>Heads and Sticks
>Recording
>Other

that way other will actually be "everything else"
 

Garvin

Pioneer Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

Aydee... You must remeber to set your kit up correctly before recording... Its all backwards!

Also, I would agree that losing the tom mics is a fine idea. Good luck!
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

MFB, I think what I get from what you're saying is that close micing ( in the extreme ) ,in principle would make the drums sound not natural, with everything in extreme sharp focus or articulation?

Would I still want to keep a kick mic? snare? The kick, snare, hat articulation is important to my sound with this music.

Sorry, stupid question: why would adding 3/4 more mics make things a lot more complicated?

Will try the blanket maneuver on the day we record
 

somedrummer

Gold Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

Given my admittedly limited recording experience, I am inclined to agree with MFB that micing the toms (especially in a situation like this) will make things more complicated, take you longer to get the sound you want, and probably come out somehow uneven no matter how much you try to change it.

I've only recorded a few times, but I've found that the best sounds come from (to a point) the fewest mics. Wasn't it those guys... uhhh, what's their name... Led something... that recorded in a room with just a mic in the corner... I think...?
 
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Mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

MFB, I think what I get from what you're saying is that close micing ( in the extreme ) ,in principle would make the drums sound not natural, with everything in extreme sharp focus or articulation?

Would I still want to keep a kick mic? snare? The kick, snare, hat articulation is important to my sound with this music.

Sorry, stupid question: why would adding 3/4 more mics make things a lot more complicated?

Will try the blanket maneuver on the day we record

Well it can do. I'm not saying it's always the case, but it can and given your limited experience (and that is in no way a put down, it's just the facts) it's just probably best to leave them. The hi-hat mic is the same, but if your work needs a lot of finely-worked hi-hat stuff, put on the hi hat mic. The problem there is a lot of phase cancellation if you get too much bleed, so it has to be close to the hi-hat. More than eight or so inches away and you start getting the other cymbals in and the snare; and because it's not equidistant to the snare, that can cause more phase cancellation problems.

That said, a hi-hat mic is potentially a good idea if done properly. By all means give it a go, but set up your overheads in the normal way you would if it wasn't there and then use the hi-hat mic only if it's necessary. The kick mic is fine - you'll need that, the kick is integral, as is the snare and they might well need to be accented.

It makes things more complicated because of the aforementioned phase problems (when two signals from one source enter two mics at different times and those signals are combined, they tend to cancel each other out slightly - rather than just adding volume) and this is much more likely with multiple mics. The other problem is like I say, in the mixing and getting the kit to sound natural. In the past I've had problems when one mic's gain is too high and not realised until it was too late (not enough time to re-record and the overheads weren't set up to compensate) and therefore had to really compress the hell out of it and use various work-around techniques to get to where I wanted, rather than just getting on with the sound I wanted being recorded. Now I'm not saying by any means that you'll do that, but it's one risk and on top of that, you've got to EQ and mix the toms in separately, which can be a dicey game without a lot of experience.

I hope that makes some sense. Really, going low-tech often yields the best results and in many respects, it is often far too complicated by engineers adding too much gear in.
 

GruntersDad

Honorary Lifetime CEO
Staff member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

AYDEE, all of that info MFB gave you and nowhere did you mention you were left-handed.
Geez
 
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Mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

AYDEE, all of that info MFB gave you and nowhere did you mention you were left-handed.
Geez

Very funny Johnny ;-)

All that changes is where you might want to pan your snare. Usually it's panned very slightly (5-10 out of 64) to the relevant side. It doesn't really matter which way, it just helps separate the stereo field slightly and helps with the muddiness.
 

m1ck

Senior Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

Man, this one thread has been a helluvan education.

Only one question - and I don't mean to derail things.

MFB: Is your avatar actually a picture of yourself? Sometimes I have the hardest time associating the gravity of your posts with that picture. It's funny and maddening at the same time. Like talking serious philosophy with a guy who has a chicken sitting on top of his head.
 
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Mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

Man, this one thread has been a helluvan education.

Only one question - and I don't mean to derail things.

MFB: Is your avatar actually a picture of yourself? Sometimes I have the hardest time associating the gravity of your posts with that picture. It's funny and maddening at the same time. Like talking serious philosophy with a guy who has a chicken sitting on top of his head.

That avatar actually is a picture of me. Long story short - I did a show at my old college a few months back called 'Duncan the Bear's First Birthday' (I was Duncan the bear) and I had to wear a full bear costume, but one of the bits involved an Alice in Wonderland video being shot and there you go... Duncan the Bear in a pinafore and wig. Good times.

Oh, I talk serious philosophy too!
 

m1ck

Senior Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

OK, it helps to know that. :)

Thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff; it's quite a concise primer for newbs like me. (I second the vote for a sticky.) My bandmates and I have been talking about getting a crude recording system together, and this give me a very clear idea of what's involved.
 
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Mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

OK, it helps to know that. :)

Thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff; it's quite a concise primer for newbs like me. (I second the vote for a sticky.) My bandmates and I have been talking about getting a crude recording system together, and this give me a very clear idea of what's involved.

As long as it's understandable to everyone. If anyone ever has problems understanding what's being said in any of this by anyone I'd rather it just got called up straight away. I know that's how I learn - by asking a lot of questions! And I've got a lot to learn about all of this stuff.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

MFB, I re-read your post on the overhead mic positions ( x,y ).What is the difference if the werent crossed and just almost touching? What about an an a,b position? It is also often seen on drum kits. Is that a option, and if so whatr are the sonic differences in sound between the two?

Thanks, prof.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

AYDEE, all of that info MFB gave you and nowhere did you mention you were left-handed.
Geez

Knock-knock.
Who's there?
Blind Tom of the Wild Left-Handed Monkey Boys.
Blind Tom of the Wild Left-Handed Monkey Boys, who?
What?????
How many Blind Tom of the Wild Left-Handed Monkey Boys do you know?
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Three cheers to Bernhard for fixing the typo in the title.....hip, hip........

EDIT - ...and 3 cheers to MFB, for his social service.
 
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Mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
Re: Recording Emergeny!!!!

MFB, I re-read your post on the overhead mic positions ( x,y ).What is the difference if the werent crossed and just almost touching? What about an an a,b position? It is also often seen on drum kits. Is that a option, and if so whatr are the sonic differences in sound between the two?

Thanks, prof.

AB is the spaced technique that I mentioned. It's just another way of saying it. There are various spaced techniques, but AB is just the name given to them.

The reason that the mics are crossed in the XY is so that the cardioid patterns overlap:

xy-stereo-mic.gif


Condenser-Recording-Mics.htm


I've just plagarised that from this website: http://www.pcmus.com/Condenser-Recording-Mics.htm

Which has pretty pictures and everything!

Basically, the XY technique means that there is a 'United Front' at the front of the pickup range. If the mics were side by side, there wouldn't be an even pickup at the front and you'd have a slight 'gap' in the field. Imagine drawing two hearts an inch apart, with the tip of the heart facing forward, then imagine them at 90 degrees intersecting each other - the 'round' side creates an even field and because the mics intersect and the tips of each heart shape are facing directionally, you get a greater stereo image that way. If you were to keep them parallel, you wouldn't get that good stereo image, either. If you were to place them next to each other, but 90 degrees apart from each other, rather than intersecting, you'd get a massive gap in pickup in the middle.

There's not really a massive difference between the two sound-wise, it's just that the XY pair is a little trickier to get right because the placement is less flexible. On the other hand, there is less likelihood that phase cancellation will occur because the two mics are in close proximity and their placement is relative to each other.

There is actually a third mic technique that isn't often used on drums, it's more likely to be used on pianos called 'Mid and Side' or MS, that requires a figure-of-eight pattern microphone and a cardioid. I've never used it, but apparently it's great for mono mixes. Basically you put the figure-of-eight near the source, with the pattern with the cardioid at 90 degrees halfway down the figure-of-eight (traditionally at 90 degrees) to fill in the 'gap'.

Mid-Side-Miking-Fig.-1.gif


Nicely plagarised from:

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_front_center/

This actually explains it far better than I can, but if you're in an adventurous mood and have the necessary equipment...

Anybody who thinks my explanations are rubbish, tell me! This was written in a bit of a hurry because I'm supposed to be sailing in half an hour on the River...

EDIT: Unfortunately the sailing didn't happen. Someone took my place. And I was so looking forward to capsize drill...
 
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Shauno

Junior Member
Hi all,
This has indeed been a great read! I too will be venturing into the home studio recording territory very shortly. I have absolutely no experience whatsoever as far as mixing or mic setup but I have been drumming for almost 27yrs now, so I'm doing this as a total 'jumping in headfirst and seeing what I can learn' exercise, as most of life is at times :D

First off I should say that I understand about the forthcoming issues of mic placement as I have a fairly large kit to work with- a 7 piece (3 rack & 2 floor toms) Pearl Export and 12 Zildjian's to bring into the mix. My mixer only arrived yesterday, which I am very happy with! It's a Mackie 1642-VLZ3. I opted for the 16channel as I knew I'd get into trouble with mic numbers once I got started and didn't want to chance running out of inputs.

I'm in the throws of mic selection currently and I'm tending to favor the new Sennheiser 900 series from the reviews I've seen here and there, also I had the usual Shure and AKG's in mind. I guess it's each to his own in this area and we would probably ALL get a different sound from the same combination's so I'm preparing myself for a lot of trial and error.

I like the idea of keeping it simple and using mic's sparingly. Saying that however, I do like the idea of miking all the toms for that extra control (maybe I'm just an old control freak at heart lol?), also I like the, almost 3D, spatial awareness panning can give, particularly with great fills around the kit.

Here's what I would ideally like to have-
The 5 toms individually miked.
Two overheads.
Separate Snare, Hi Hat, Ride and Kick mic's.

I will keep you all posted on how I go in the next couple weeks as I will be ordering the mic's this, or next week if all goes well.
Take care and keep practicing! : )
Shauno
 
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Mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
Good luck Shauno! Pictures and recordings will be appreciated.
 
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