Hi-Hat Foot in 3/4 and 5/4 Jazz

Sonorfan

Member
Where should it go - or is it just the player's preference? Where do you play it?
Ok I’m an old guy and here’s my take:
3/4 time. The are two versions of so called Waltz or 3/4 time that has got me through the years. When I played old time music with a fiddler ( hey they were good paying Gigs ) I used the old time Waltz tempo which starts with the first beat on the snare or ride and two downstrokes on the hi hat to achieve the 3/4 beat. When old time Waltzers hear that they start on the down beat and twirl on the two counter beats. Sounds really corny but it works.. same for European like Strauss waltzes.
For modern waltzes I use single kick and hi hat together with articulation on ride.
If you study Dave Bruebeck’s Take five the hi hat strikes are 1 - 1/2 ..liken it to the same kick drum beat for Rock.
For a Jazz waltz I use the matched kick-hi hat with brushes doing triplets.
These methods have got me through for 65 years without complaint.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
Though you often start with 2 & 4 or all four in a 4/4 beat there are no rules there either. It just depends on the song and what you're going for,

I'm maybe not that old, but I guess I anything except for 1 on a waltz. 2, 3, 2+3, 2 & 3 &, etc

In 5/4 I guess I started with 4, then 2 then both 2 + 4. If I go over the barline with the ride I may continue with he same foot pattern but also do the same or oposite with the hi-hat.

Add in splashes and you've got quite a few more options in both. In a jazz context there will be quite bit of variation and improvisation. Just a different voice for different textures.
 

Sonorfan

Member
Though you often start with 2 & 4 or all four in a 4/4 beat there are no rules there either. It just depends on the song and what you're going for,

I'm maybe not that old, but I guess I anything except for 1 on a waltz. 2, 3, 2+3, 2 & 3 &, etc

In 5/4 I guess I started with 4, then 2 then both 2 + 4. If I go over the barline with the ride I may continue with he same foot pattern but also do the same or oposite with the hi-hat.

Add in splashes and you've got quite a few more options in both. In a jazz context there will be quite bit of variation and improvisation. Just a different voice for different textures.
Yep I agree there are no hard and fast rules but with Vienna waltzes the 1 on the kick followed by 1/2 on hat with press rolls on snare works just fine. But , I’m guessing there are very few out there who have played Strauss.
And in the 1800s or until the invention of the kick drum, only a snare type was used with full sticks doing rolls etc. It sure isn’t boring to play. I’m also amazed that so many drummers haven’t mastered Brushes. My first teacher in the mid fifties wouldn’t let me play with sticks until I could use Brushes effectively. I note that some Blues/ Rock oriented Drummers that do use them use the matched grip and actually emulate sticks in that both hands use a bounce tempo. To really be effective in Jazz/Swing the opposed grip is the key and the sweep
motion of the left hand(or reverse if your left hand dominate) creates the sound depth and the right (or left) hand does the pattern. Study Jeff Hamilton as he’s great with Brushes.
Just saying !
 

Morrisman

Platinum Member
My default feel for 3/4 swing is right foot on 1, left foot on 3, snare on either 1& or 2.
In 5/4 I tend to play the hihat one beat behind the bass drum, 12 . 45
 

Sonorfan

Member
My default feel for 3/4 swing is right foot on 1, left foot on 3, snare on either 1& or 2.
In 5/4 I tend to play the hihat one beat behind the bass drum, 12 . 45
Yep on 5/4 that works. I guess I was captivated by Joe Morello Brubeck’s famous drummer as his technique. Look at Take Five video on You Tube and watch hat.. it’s 1-1//2 and every one who played that number in that era copied Joe. As regards 3/4 I was taught that old time and classic waltzes used the 1 on kick with rt hand stick either on ride or closed hat then 1/1 on open hat. The modern waltz was kick and hat on and 1/2 stick on ride or hat. Current country seems to like that but hey the end result is to be on 3/4.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
It's up to you, but typically hihat goes on 2/3 or just 2 on a waltz. I often play it on the 2/& of 3. Elvin Jones often played it on the & of 1/3.

In 5 you can put it on the 2/3/5 or 2/4/5, or 2/4. The phrasing of the tune/vamp is a consideration-- whether it's phrased 2+3 or 3+2. Take Five is phrased 3+2. Here's a page with some possibilities-- the first six are fairly normal. Here's a list of some books that would be helpful.
 

jbohan6

Junior Member
there are a handful of ways i've played 3/4 time. something like

1 2+3, 1 2+3, on the ride cymbal, and use different foot ostinatos between the two feet.

bass drum plays 1, or +1, or 1 3, every bar, or just 2 depending on the hi hat part
hi hat plays on 3, or 23, or + (2) 3 (skip beat two- hh on and of one, 3)
snare drum comps , conversates with the bass drum.


I also use a handful of afro-cuban rhythms or shuffle rhythms. playing in 6/8 works well for 3/4 for obvious reasons. Try bembe, nanigo, and versions of those patterns to start.

for 5/4 the general standard (imo) is + of 2, 45. on the hi hat. bd on 2., or 2 and the + of 4.
or hi hat does 2, 45. Lots of variation in these patterns in the jazz context.

Though I'm sure there are plenty out there, I can't think of any examples of 5/4 beats that are very straight forward and repetitive. Most of the drumming in 5/4 you'll find was done in the jazz context, where the emphasis was on the ride pattern as opposed to an ostinato between the bd and snare drum.
just my $.02
 

WhoIsTony?

Member
you can put it wherever you want ... literally

for example listen to Three To Get Ready by the Brubeck Quartet at Carnegie Hall ... the song goes back and forth from 3/4 to 4/4 for the entire tune and Joe keeps the hi hat in a 4/4 feel even through the 3/4 sections

as long as the feel is good none of this matters and there are zero rules pertaining to where you should put it

just play with honesty and emotion and the music will speak
 

dmacc_2

Well-known member
To sort of restate what's already been said, the music is free where the placement only matters in terms of musical context.

My opinion is to be able to develop enough independence / control to execute as you deem. This is another matter - but I'm not sure if you are asking this question in terms of developing the independence or how to use it once you have it.

For getting started on developing 3/4, here are some starting places for examples. John Riley's Jazz Drummer's Workshop and Joe Morello's New Directions in Rhythms are good (but not the only) resources to expand on these. These get into 5/4 and beyond.

HH 34.jpg
 
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