Drummerworld forum mood/climate

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timmdrum

Silver Member
I thought about posting this in the threads where these occurred, but for the sake of the OP's, I figured it warranted a new thread.

I used to post and reply here on Drummerworld a lot, and found an extremely supportive community where everyone was eager to share info, and even more importantly, everyone was courteous to each other (nearly unheard of on the internet) and disagreements were handled with patience and tact. Due to a job where I had to stare at a computer screen a lot, my time on here got cut way back, relegated to only when I had a bit of free time at work (which wasn't much), because I didn't want to come home and stare at a screen even more.

Fairly recently, I've been noticing the culture here change toward the worse some. One example: someone posted for assistance with something. I read some posts that didn't seem correct to me, so I commented- politely- with my 2 cents' worth. Apparently there were some mistakes in my replies. I went back and read some of those others' and my early posts in this thread, and saw several places where I misinterpreted and subsequently misspoke, and I found a couple of my posts where I stated something that was flat-out wrong. (I have no issue with being wrong; it's a learning opportunity.) Elsewhere, I could tell that one thing that I meant to say is true, but I used bad verbiage to explain it. I re-explained that, then with the correct verbiage, and I clarified that this is what I meant in the first place. However, even after this, some folks continued to explain this very point back to me, and still continued it even after I re-explained that this very point is what I meant and even quoted where I'd already said the very thing that was still being said to me. Then, the shenanigans started. Even though some others were apparently also wrong in their interpretations of the OP's question and in their replies, I started getting hammered with childish insults and condescending remarks. In another fairly recent example about the origin of something, someone posted an idea, and because I have a fair amount of jazz history knowledge (but didn't say that), I offered another idea that is rooted in factual historical accounts and points more to the origin. I never said his idea was "wrong" as to the reason it continues presently. The person argued against my statement, flat-out saying I was wrong (which made me wish my college jazz professors were on here, haha). Then after I defended it again, he said "I gave the reason for it", followed by "I don't need to argue with you about _____________", right after continuing to argue about it. I replied once more- and mind you, I remained polite and did not resort to insults, cursing (real or acronym-ed)- providing factual evidence as to why many of his statements were merely his opinions- not fact, as he stated multiple times. He came back with "WTF is this", did not acknowledge any of the facts that proved his argument wrong (of course), and said "I have no interest in this" (after all those replies). To summarize, he was happy to debate/argue/speculate/etc, until he was proven that his statements were either opinions or proven false, then he tried to ridicule me for doing it better than he did.

I have thick skin, and, combined with how I know people generally act in communicative avenues on the internet (forums, social media, etc), I wasn't bothered by it- rather amused, actually. There's a few in every crowd, and I got a chuckle from it. Others are noticing this trend from these select few, and I imagine, from others also. A couple of excerpts from private messages I've received in the wake of these posts (there are more, but these two are sufficient):
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"Just wanted to express my sympathy that you got caught in the douche-wave of ____________ and ________________. Besides ___________, they're the most annoying people on this forum. Both are deeply insecure people who feel like they have to prove themselves every second of their lives. I think a lot of people are quietly laughing about them behind the scenes..."

"Hi there Timmdrum. My name is ________. I have just seen your interaction with ___________. I understand how you feel about his comments. I refuse to speak to that man anymore. He did the exact same thing to me about some practice ideas I had. He just belittled, patronized, and insulted me. You have my understanding and support."
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A bit later, I was saddened somewhat by all this, not because of anything directed at me (again, thick skin, and I've been around children enough to know when adults are acting like them), but because I realized that Drummerworld had traditionally not been a place where people behaved like that. In my experience, in non-internet "real life", drummers have always been a pretty special, mutually supportive, communicative, and social gang, where we seemed to have each others' backs and enjoyed talking shop as much as we do, without some of the odd competitiveness and petty jabs I've witnessed within other groups of musicians, like (*shudder*) guitarists. (I'm kidding.:) But also not- in my experience, a much higher percentage of them seem to be like that.) Drummerworld's forum was always especially pleasant. It left me wondering if, in my time away from this site, the pleasant social climate on this site and among drummers generally (and maybe among people, period) is degrading in some manner. My all-day-on-the-computer job was from 2011-2019; is this some effect of the last two presidential elections, where some blowhard has brought about the idea that being a disrespectful asshat is acceptable behavior? Is it merely a continuation of the internet age phenomenon where some people will bow up from behind their keyboards in a manner that they wouldn't in person? (At least, I hope they wouldn't, lest they get their just desserts if they speak like that to the wrong person.)

I'm gonna try to stay positive about it all. Again, there's gonna be a few in every crowd, and Drummerworld is no exception, but I long for the time when stuff like this was much less common on here. I hope the few bad eggs don't spoil the bunch. I'm not some snowflake that needs a safe space for my widdle feelings to not get hurt (ESPECIALLY not from childishness). I hope in the future there will be fewer debates that degrade from friendliness and tact to "your opinion is wrong, doodyhead", and if a particular side of a debate gets proven false (not opinions, because they cannot be true or false), it can be acknowledged, even if he/she thinks he/she is the all-knowing one true Drum God, and admit that an opposing thought has merit, rather than he/she resorting to the online forum equivalent of "Shut up- I'm taking my football and going home." Or, if the case is that someone states something that has a mistake or two, it can be discussed politely, patiently, and without an air of superiority. We're all human, and not one person here is infallible, even on the subject of drumming.

I welcome your polite, educated, and informed replies. To those who wish to reply in the manners addressed above- go ahead. We'll be having a laugh at your expense.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Timm - There have been a few members here recently who have taken a less than ideal attitude towards other members. One or two have been removed from the forum. Others have been advised on modifying their approach. As mod's, we walk a fine line between encouraging unfettered respectful discourse, and restricting or removing those who persistently fail to engage positively. Flagrant breaking of the rules is an easy one, they're gone, but there's a wide spectrum of attitude that falls between the extremes.

In many cases, non first language is absolutely a challenge. Nuance is lost, and it's incredibly easy for someone to deliver statements with alternate meanings without intent. In other cases, there's obviously a trend that's not empathetic or respectful, irrespective of language communication challenges. In such cases, it's right that the mod's assess the direction of travel and seek to remind members of the forum's expectations. No matter what "level" the member may occupy professionally, there is an expectation that all members deserve due consideration and respect. In fact, I personally believe there is almost a greater inclusivity and supportive responsibility requirement that comes with seniority (either ability or achievement based).

Those with advanced ability and/or career success are absolutely encouraged here. Such members really add to the fabric of the forum, and in many ways, set this forum apart from others. It is the hope that such members participate here in the spirit of sharing their knowledge and lifting others up who look for assistance, rather than seeking to reinforce their own position through binary and / or dismissive replies. Certainly "I don't regard your opinion as valid unless you can post a video of your stellar playing" is not a response I expect from someone who has more than self promotion at heart. If you look at the responses from members who really operate at the highest level of playing / career success, they almost always display the kind of inclusive and supportive attitude you'd expect from someone in a mentor position. Of course, if someone presents a counter view, especially if that view is likely misinformed, it's right for anyone to understand the place where the respondent is coming from, and their personal experience / reference points to assess validity, but that can still be undertaken with due respect.

In any communication medium that isn't face to face, there will always be misunderstanding, just by virtue of the limitations of the medium. Of course, the standard advice is to use your ignore button if there's someone who you don't connect positively with, but please also report any responses you feel step over the line in terms of persistent poor attitude. Sometimes, the mod's judgement may be based on balancing the forum contribution benefits of having a member participate, weighed against any wider negative impact of their continued participation. No one person (with the exception of Bernhard) is bigger than the forum.

Andy.
 

dmacc_2

Well-known member
One feature/functionality of this site I thought I would never use but am beginning to is the "Ignore User" function.

Not sure how effective it is, but time will tell.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I do agree that the general forum attitude seems to be going through changes.

I just can't bring myself to ignore anyone though.

The people who piss me off the most are in fact my greatest teachers, like it or not.
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
Honestly, it's better than most of the internet here. At least I'm dealing with drummers, and most of you guys are decent. I have seen WAY worse on other forums.

I haven't had many issues here, I will sometimes post my opinion if someone posts wrong or bad info which may offend someone, but I do it to help the new drummers or OP's asking questions from thinking it is correct and causing bad habits or wasting a ton of time. For the most part this site has good information though.

If someone is trolling or being a jerk, just ignore em. Too many people use the internet to make themselves feel big and important.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
Forums are a lot of fun. I second Andy's thoughts especially on limits of the medium and language limitations-lots of room for misunderstanding. Some folks get jaded from going down rabbit holes dealing with trolls-whose only goal is to be a troll -so they've lost any patience with anyone they suspect as such. Some people have super egos, some modest, and others almost none so you have a mix of personality traits. We all probably have had to deal with such at work or growing up. So it's not a new issue. Timm's thread reminds me of a lesson I had to learn the hard way in how I communicated because I had a way of pissing people off with how I said things at times (surprise, surprise lol). In my mind being correct or accurate with facts trumped civility or anything because it wasn't me but truth speaking. Now what's truth? And what good is being right if no one listens. So I am still learning it's not what you say but how you say it, because what good is winning a battle if you lose the war. Some of my best friends at work were those I had a kerfuffle initially-we both thought I'll never be friends with that moron, but we two morons became fast friends. I think the forum has always gone through odd periods of uncivilly then back on track-maybe it's the moon, some circadian rhythm, or male menopause LOL.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Right on Art.

Tact: The ability to tell someone to go to hell...in such a way that they actually look forward to the trip.

Music isn't just the notes, it's how the notes are played, just like conversation.

Conversation done wrong creates enemies. Conversation done right creates friends. Each example can use the exact same words with wildly different results.

Just like music.
 
I also think that the general atmosphere is pretty decent here. Some things that I wished that all users would do more:
- If you know more than someone else, please try to provide some helpful links or keywords to google. It's not necessary to write a whole article to explain everything again and again, though.
- If you know less, don't debate endlessly and seek for weak points or missing parts in what somebody who knows more wrote. We're all here to learn or help others (or show off gear 🤪)
- Use the search engine if you're unsure about your opinion or if a similar thread already exists (I think the search function is not great, honestly - using google and including drummerworld gives far better results)
- Use meaningful thread titles, not click-baity or non-informative ones like "Look here, an interesting video" or "What to do now?"
- Read the first post before typing - there are so many answers that completely miss the point which clutters up the forum

And as it's pretty clear, who you're talking about - I've talked to both users either via e-mail or in person and they were very nice and helpful. Just adding this to give another perspective.
 

Stroman

Platinum Member
Well, I knew who was involved just by reading the OP. The only thing to do is let it go and/or hit the ignore button. It isn't helpful to continue to engage.

In general, though, I still find the forum to be a mostly positive experience and well worth it.
 

mikyok

Platinum Member
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing on something, anyone who is happily married here will attest to that!

If you want people to respect your opinion then you have to respect theirs. That's how healthy discussion happens. Unfortunately we don't do it on a face to face basis so there's room misinterpretation.

Failing that George Carlin summed it up, "Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
 

roncadillac

Member
Spend five minutes on "badger & blade" and you'll know what a real toxic forum environment is.

If you even politely and respectfully disagree with a more seasoned/tenured member then you, you'll get a PM from a mod threatening a block.

If you use any language that that specific section's mod finds unsavory, you'll get a PM threatening a block. But that is "mod's discretion" so in one section you can't even say "heck" but in another section you can full blown drop an "f" bomb.

If you talk about any other forum, you get a PM from a mod threatening a block. I posted in an off topic thread about hobbies that I play drums and encouraged them to check out drummerworld forum...got a PM threatening a block for that.

All the straight razor guys constantly bash on the DE guys and all the DE guys constantly bash on the Electric guys... But it's an unspoken hierarchy, meaning a straight razor guy can bash a DE guy but if a DE guy or Electric guy bashes a Straight razor guy they'll get a PM threatening a block.

If you are new to traditional shaving and express dissatisfaction with the process, or not achieving results you wanted, you'll get a bunch of geriatrics jumping down your throat about how you "must be doing it wrong" or "obviously don't know what you are doing" and if you do anything besides keep your mouth shut and accept it... You'll get a PM threatening a block.

Or how about the pearl drummer forum? There is a mod over there who has been active for over ten years and I swear his entire purpose in life is to tell everyone who participates in their forum that they are wrong and an idiot... He is a damn mod, he is by default representing the Pearl corporation and they totally don't seem to care. He has blocked people for calling him out on his relentless bullying.
 

dmacc_2

Well-known member
.....
If someone is trolling or being a jerk, just ignore em. Too many people use the internet to make themselves feel big and important.
Yes and I am finding using the ignore function the most efficient way to do this. Been here way too long to know who I have stuff in common with and who I don't. I don't use the forum for debates as I'm not remotely interested in making this a reason to be here.

I do find myself coming back to visit more often than I have over the last few years. Still some great people here - even many who I don't click with but I feel add a considerable amount of value to the place overall.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
If you talk about any other forum, you get a PM from a mod threatening a block. I posted in an off topic thread about hobbies that I play drums and encouraged them to check out drummerworld forum...got a PM threatening a block for that.
Seems a bit cutthroat - I award you a 30 second ban for mentioning another forum, and a concurrent 5 minute ban for being a member of a shaving forum ;)


Or how about the pearl drummer forum? There is a mod over there who has been active for over ten years and I swear his entire purpose in life is to tell everyone who participates in their forum that they are wrong and an idiot... He is a damn mod, he is by default representing the Pearl corporation and they totally don't seem to care. He has blocked people for calling him out on his relentless bullying.
And another 5 minute ban for visiting an inferior drumming forum ;)
 

Soulfinger

Senior Member
Hey, this forum is a fun place to be - don´t let anyone ruin it for you.

And bear in mind that it´s the internet - some people may come across harsh and condescending without actually intending it. Written messages are very one-dimensional. We don´t have body language or other means of expression that help us judge people in real life, and no, emojis are not a substitute. :) Also, for some (including me) english is not their first language so that might be a factor too.
 

roncadillac

Member
Seems a bit cutthroat - I award you a 30 second ban for mentioning another forum, and a concurrent 5 minute ban for being a member of a shaving forum ;)


And another 5 minute ban for visiting an inferior drumming forum ;)
When I was threatened with a block by a Mod on said shaving forum, the owner/primary admin was participating in that same thread and made an open post saying (summary), "if any mod threatens a block for talking about other forums, let me know and I'll fix it." So I PM'ed him explaining the situation... His response was, "if you continue to speak negatively about our mods, I'll block you." Lol. I simply gave him the info he asked for openly and got a totally different response behind the scenes.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
When I was threatened with a block by a Mod on said shaving forum, the owner/primary admin was participating in that same thread and made an open post saying (summary), "if any mod threatens a block for talking about other forums, let me know and I'll fix it." So I PM'ed him explaining the situation... His response was, "if you continue to speak negatively about our mods, I'll block you." Lol. I simply gave him the info he asked for openly and got a totally different response behind the scenes.
Same here - behind the scenes, I didn't really ban you for a total of 10 minutes 30 seconds.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
Wow just found the ignore function-I've been wondering WTH you people been talking about. Seems like if we all ignore each other that isn't going to be any fun? I don't care who is ignoring me but I'd love to know how many-then I can brag about how I'm on a list-maybe even no. 1 on DW LOL. Given all the differences in languages, cultures, and just human diversity, I'm really pleased how "overall" this place really works well-way better than any other blog or forum I've tried. Sure everything has some negative but lets accentuate the positive to. In that regard, I was thinking about Bernhard commenting on his age (he mentioned in his 70s)-which he's Swiss and they have a longer longevity than most so I expect him to be here for next twenty years or longer, but still we all have to face our mortality. So what do you think will happen to DW on that sad day without him at the drivers seat? I shudder to think. Gratitude comes to my mind. I'd like to give him a big ole bear hug (he may not appreciate that but it's a southern thang) and thank him personally for over a decade of "learning and fun" I've enjoyed on here. Just food for thought-not trying to be morbid (though dang it reads that way- crap-so the written word thing again).
 
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roncadillac

Member
I have both participated in and stalked MANY forums for a variety of interests and hobbies over the last 15+ years. There has been only one constant through that entire time and experience: drummerworld forum consistently has the nicest and most genuinely helpful participants.

Has that changed a little lately? Absolutely, but so has society and our "climate of communication."

Not everyone will always be a winner, I bet even Canada has 1 nasty angry resident, but through it all I choose to stick with the best of the best and that's why I post here. (Joking sarcasm of course, that whole country is so relentlessly polite and courteous it's almost frustrating lol).
 

CommanderRoss

Silver Member
This is one of the few forums I spend a lot of time on. Rarely have I crossed streams with another poster to the extent I have to complain. I've learned never to argue on social media. Ever.
It just doesn't go anywhere and solves nothing. If I get a poster who's always giving me their resume or having to prove themselves with every reply, I just ignore them.

Life's too short to waste time on silliness like that. Besides...it cuts into my practice time. ;)
 

cbphoto

Gold Member
Sorry to upset the cupcakes, but the attitudes here are very pleasant and amiable. Great wealth of knowledge and assistance.

If you wanna see the dark side, go to any popular photography forum and you’ll read truly repugnant posts that attack, demean, ridicule and verbally flog forum members. I’ve participated in forums since the days of Prodigy and have witnessed some great, established pro photographers leave due to this behavior.

This forum is a gem in comparison.
 
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