Cymbal Companies and Consistancy

I find A Customs and AAX’s to be more consistent than standard A’s and AA’s. Someting to do with how they’re manufactured.

Yeah, A Customs and the S Family go through an almost identical lathing and hammering process, and both have a bright finish. But the A Custom line is cast, whereas the S Family is sheet. They also have slightly different alloys.
 
John Goode taught us all that a raw shell of the same size and wood makes a different note.

Anything made individually will have unique characteristics, thankfully.

Having it both ways, sheet and cast...there's something for everyone.

I don't want to see homogenization with cast cymbals. There would be no standouts. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Does a magic sheet cymbal exist?

Only if it's been stamped out by a wizard. But you're right; when you find that "magic" cast cymbal, there's nothing else like it. The problem is that you probable won't be able to replace it.

About five years ago, through a series of unintended events, I came into possession of two Zildjian K 17' Dark Crashes. Their stamps revealed that they had been created about nine months apart. One sounded darker than a power outage in Manhattan. The other was brighter than a prairie on a midsummer's day. I gave up on the casting process at that point.
 
I'd rather have a magic cymbal that I can't replace than no magic cymbals at all.

But I'm not debating anything. I had an 18" S I liked better than an 18" K Custom Dark I had.

At the time, I didn't know the S's were sheet, I just liked the sound. And the price.

I even gave the K away and kept the S.

Until I gave the S away.

Interesting topic.
 
But the process employed to manufacture sheets, from which sheet cymbals are eventually stamped out, is a whole lot more standardized than the process executed to pour cast cymbals individually. Try to see it this way, not in terms of quality but in terms of methodology: A sheet cymbal is like a burger from a corporate chain. It follows a rigidly fixed formula that favors replication over individual flavor. A cast cymbal is just the opposite. It's a mom-and-pop burger, and no two will taste alike. Mom-and-pop burgers are fine with me. Mom-and-pop cymbals are not.

Believe me when I say that I share your cast frustration. That's why I buy only sheet now. And I'm not settling for sheet cymbals. I prefer them.

You are missing my point. I am saying that they can be the same if one repeats the process, sheet or cast. How they are made is not the thing in question, it's the initial mix (liquid alloy) that is important. If this is consistent, the cymbals can be also. They all start from a liquid. All of them, even the giant sheet they make stamped cymbals from. There is absolutely no reason one can be done with precision and the other can't.

If the cylinder head can be made really consistent, I bet if you tap two of them they won't sound the same.

I'll have to try this. Next time I go to the junkyard I'll strip two from a v6 or v8 and find out. Being that everything is the same, I'm gonna guess they'll sound very similar. And if they do, I'll go get some from a different car with the same engine and try those too. I wasn't trying to make a sonic comparison with cylinder heads, just that alloys can be made precisely. Lots of aluminum wouldnt hold up to being a cylinder head. But a properly mixed alloy does. And being able to consistently repeat that mixture is why we can even have aluminum cylinders heads.

If every other industry (that deals in liquid metal) on the planet can repeat alloys with precision and consistency, there is no reason the cymbal industry can't. It's bronze for petes sake. It had it's own age. A period of time was named after it. Are we to believe that bronze is a mystery metal that can't be tamed and has no consistency? Physics says no.
 
You are missing my point. I am saying that they can be the same if one repeats the process, sheet or cast. How they are made is not the thing in question, it's the initial mix (liquid alloy) that is important. If this is consistent, the cymbals can be also. They all start from a liquid. All of them, even the giant sheet they make stamped cymbals from. There is absolutely no reason one can be done with precision and the other can't.



I'll have to try this. Next time I go to the junkyard I'll strip two from a v6 or v8 and find out. Being that everything is the same, I'm gonna guess they'll sound very similar. And if they do, I'll go get some from a different car with the same engine and try those too. I wasn't trying to make a sonic comparison with cylinder heads, just that alloys can be made precisely. Lots of aluminum wouldnt hold up to being a cylinder head. But a properly mixed alloy does. And being able to consistently repeat that mixture is why we can even have aluminum cylinders heads.

If every other industry (that deals in liquid metal) on the planet can repeat alloys with precision and consistency, there is no reason the cymbal industry can't. It's bronze for petes sake. It had it's own age. A period of time was named after it. Are we to believe that bronze is a mystery metal that can't be tamed and has no consistency? Physics says no.

We can explicate the intricacies of thermodynamics and alloy composition for the next eight hours and still return to the following intractable fact: Zildjian's casting procedures mirror those that originated in Turkey centuries ago, with the exception that most of Zildian's current cast cymbals are now machine hammered instead of forged by hand. It's a tradition, some of which is proprietary, shaped by countless years of study and expertise. I'd wager a rather significant sum that their experts know tenfold more about cymbal making than we can ever hope to address through the medium of this forum. If that premise prevails, we can deduce one of two conditions:

I. Zildjian is casting cymbals in the best fashion at its disposal, meaning cast cymbals are inevitably inconsistent by their very nature, there's nothing to be done about it, and Zildjian, like many drummers, deems such inconsistency a strength rather than a weakness.

II. Zildjian knows its methods are horrific but has no desire to amend them. Its elite craftsmen don't understand the behavior of alloy and don't wish to enlighten themselves.

I very much doubt the wildly absurd probability of the second proposition. In either case, you aren't getting consistent-sounding cymbals from Zildjian unless you go with sheets. I don't think any experiment you conduct in a junkyard will change that, but give it a try if you have the time.
 
I'd rather have a magic cymbal that I can't replace than no magic cymbals at all.

And a whole lot of players feel that way. I've had cast cymbals I've loved and others that have disappointed me. For me, it's a matter of finding what I like and knowing I can get it again, which is why I'm glad to have found Zildjian's S line. I suspect we'll see an expansion of their sheet options in years to come.
 
The S cymbals do sound nice but I couldn't say if they are consistent like Paiste.

Not everyone goes for the Paiste sound. A consistent Zildjian would be a home run.

I'm not so sure what would happen to the cast cymbal end of the business if the less expensive sheet cymbals really take off, which I think they will.

They might even bury cast cymbals eventually. They sound pretty darn good.

Maybe they can make consistent sounding cast cymbals, but it's too cost prohibitive.
 
I. Zildjian is casting cymbals in the best fashion at its disposal, meaning cast cymbals are inevitably inconsistent by their very nature, there's nothing to be done about it, and Zildjian, like many drummers, deems such inconsistency a strength rather than a weakness.

II. Zildjian knows its methods are horrific but has no desire to amend them. Its elite craftsmen don't understand the behavior of alloy and don't wish to enlighten themselves.

Or:

III: Zildjian doesn't care. This is how they have been doing business for almost 400 years, why should they stop now?

I'm not saying they should, I'm saying they can. So can other cymbal companies. But they dont, and that plays hell for us drummers because they can't willingly produce a consistant product. That means we have to jump through hoops to try and find a replacement pie if needed. If I break a 16" thin K, I should be able to buy a 16" thin K and it act and sound like the cymbal it replaces. It should not be a crap shoot. If any other company conducted business this way they would go under fast. But it's acceptable in the cymbal world? I dont think it should be.
 
The S cymbals do sound nice but I couldn't say if they are consistent like Paiste.

Not everyone goes for the Paiste sound. A consistent Zildjian would be a home run.

I'm not so sure what would happen to the cast cymbal end of the business if the less expensive sheet cymbals really take off, which I think they will.

They might even bury cast cymbals eventually. They sound pretty darn good.

Maybe they can make consistent sounding cast cymbals, but it's too cost prohibitive.

I'm astounded by the relatively low price tags of the S Family. I like them a lot more than Paiste 2002s, which are more expensive. Paiste makes great cymbals in my book. I've just been thoroughly impressed with Zildjian's S line, which is why all my cymbals are now of that series. Their cost has nothing to do with it. I just like the cymbals.

There's no doubt that the sheet process is more efficient than the cast process. Sheet cymbals save a lot of labor. That's why they cost less. So yes, cast cymbals could fall from popular grace, though I trust a league of traditionalists will always back them.
 
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Or:

If I break a 16" thin K, I should be able to buy a 16" thin K and it act and sound like the cymbal it replaces. It should not be a crap shoot.

That's the precise reason I'm an ardent fan of sheet cymbals. But I hear you, man. Not knowing what you're getting when you drop three-hundred bucks on a product -- one that can't be returned once you've sampled it -- is pure madness. It drove me nuts for years. In that sense, I hope Uncle Larry's prognostication comes true -- that sheet cymbals expand and options become more varied. It would just be so labor-intensive to carry out your vision for cast cymbals that, even if Zildjian or other companys pursued it, you'd probably be looking at paying a grand or more for a 20' K ride. Even then, notable differences between cymbals might not be eradicated. I doubt we'll ever be able to put it to the test.
 
That's the precise reason I'm an ardent fan of sheet cymbals


This is from Paiste. It talks about the consistency of the alloy, why a consistent alloy makes consistent cymbals, and why it doesn't matter if they are sheet or cast. Again, Paiste, a cymbal company.

"The basic material used for making cymbals is invariably a copper alloy. Copper alloys are the oldest alloys used by humans, because they are malleable enough to be shaped and cut by artisans with simple tools. Copper is unique in color among metals, and it has great properties for producing sound, which is why it is the main ingredient in cymbals. All of the alloys used for cymbals consist of copper (Cu) and at least one other ingredient: tin (Sn), nickel (Ni) or zinc (Zn). All alloys also contain trace elements, such as silver, but they are carefully controlled to avoid degradation in sound potential.
An alloy is a mixture of two or more metals. In an alloy source metals do not bond chemically. They coexist in a microscopic grain structure. Melting and thus mixing the ingredient metals produces the alloy. During this stage, the exact temperature and heating process will produce a specific and carefully controlled grain structure. The molten metal mix is then cast from the melting container, which involves forming it into a particular shape by pouring or pressing it into a mold while it slowly cools off. This is the process called casting, and it is the only way to produce an alloy. (Regardless of what some current cymbal literature says, there can be no non-cast alloys and thus cymbals, it is just not possible. Similarly, the distinction between cast and sheet alloys is plain nonsense.)
The cooled off cast, whether it be thick, round disks, big blocks or long, thick strips, is then repeatedly rolled using immense pressure to compress the alloy and achieve a specific internal grain size and hardness. During this stage, the alloy is repeatedly heated and allowed to cool off. This process is called annealing, and its purpose is to prevent brittleness and thus give strength to the alloy. At the end, round disks are cut out from the rolled alloy plates, which will then be made into cymbals. The exact sound property of an alloy is a combination of factors. The ingredient metals are a key factor, and for most cymbals, this is copper and tin, or Bronze alloy. The other important factors are the grain size, the grain structure, and the alloy hardness. These characteristics are determined in the casting, rolling, and annealing processes. They need to be fine tuned very carefully, because the wrong combination will not work. A certain combination of characteristics, while possibly producing an interesting sound, can produce an alloy that is too brittle or too soft, causing cymbals to break or dent prematurely. A very hard, homogenous and thus extremely durable combination will almost certainly produce inferior sound. The art of cymbal making thus includes selecting the right combination of the alloy characteristics for the ultimate combination of sound and durability, and this process most certainly constitutes every cymbal maker’s secret formula, including ours. Moreover, this is just the starting point, because the actual determination of cymbal sound involves the shaping (through hammering) and tapering (through lathing) of the disks into final cymbal shapes. During this process, the particular frequencies and harmonics desired in the final cymbal are selected from the vast sound potential inherent to the alloy.
Our deep body of knowledge about cymbal alloys is based on our family member’s life times of experimentation, experience, and research. We continually update and innovate the mixture and exact characteristics of our alloys, which we develop and fine-tune together with world-renowned top metallurgists at our suppliers. We are the industry leader in discovering new mixtures and procedures, having introduced several alloys to cymbal making, including one for which we received a patent.
We use finished raw materials (round, flat disks) from several specialized foundries and rolling mills. We select these suppliers due to their specialized and superior technical abilities and large scale of operations. It is simply not possible for the comparatively small casting and rolling volume requirements of a cymbal maker to achieve their level of consistency and quality. This ensures that our manufacturing process starts with raw materials that conform to the highest standards of consistency and helps guarantee the quality of every cymbal we make."

Notice they say it doesn't matter sheet or cast? Notice they say it's the consistency of their process that allows a superior, consistent product? Notice they put value on a consistent alloy? This is what I was saying, keep the alloy consistant and the cymbals will follow.

Again, this is from Paiste. Are they wrong?
 
This is from Paiste. It talks about the consistency of the alloy, why a consistent alloy makes consistent cymbals, and why it doesn't matter if they are sheet or cast. Again, Paiste, a cymbal company.

"The basic material used for making cymbals is invariably a copper alloy. Copper alloys are the oldest alloys used by humans, because they are malleable enough to be shaped and cut by artisans with simple tools. Copper is unique in color among metals, and it has great properties for producing sound, which is why it is the main ingredient in cymbals. All of the alloys used for cymbals consist of copper (Cu) and at least one other ingredient: tin (Sn), nickel (Ni) or zinc (Zn). All alloys also contain trace elements, such as silver, but they are carefully controlled to avoid degradation in sound potential.
An alloy is a mixture of two or more metals. In an alloy source metals do not bond chemically. They coexist in a microscopic grain structure. Melting and thus mixing the ingredient metals produces the alloy. During this stage, the exact temperature and heating process will produce a specific and carefully controlled grain structure. The molten metal mix is then cast from the melting container, which involves forming it into a particular shape by pouring or pressing it into a mold while it slowly cools off. This is the process called casting, and it is the only way to produce an alloy. (Regardless of what some current cymbal literature says, there can be no non-cast alloys and thus cymbals, it is just not possible. Similarly, the distinction between cast and sheet alloys is plain nonsense.)
The cooled off cast, whether it be thick, round disks, big blocks or long, thick strips, is then repeatedly rolled using immense pressure to compress the alloy and achieve a specific internal grain size and hardness. During this stage, the alloy is repeatedly heated and allowed to cool off. This process is called annealing, and its purpose is to prevent brittleness and thus give strength to the alloy. At the end, round disks are cut out from the rolled alloy plates, which will then be made into cymbals. The exact sound property of an alloy is a combination of factors. The ingredient metals are a key factor, and for most cymbals, this is copper and tin, or Bronze alloy. The other important factors are the grain size, the grain structure, and the alloy hardness. These characteristics are determined in the casting, rolling, and annealing processes. They need to be fine tuned very carefully, because the wrong combination will not work. A certain combination of characteristics, while possibly producing an interesting sound, can produce an alloy that is too brittle or too soft, causing cymbals to break or dent prematurely. A very hard, homogenous and thus extremely durable combination will almost certainly produce inferior sound. The art of cymbal making thus includes selecting the right combination of the alloy characteristics for the ultimate combination of sound and durability, and this process most certainly constitutes every cymbal maker’s secret formula, including ours. Moreover, this is just the starting point, because the actual determination of cymbal sound involves the shaping (through hammering) and tapering (through lathing) of the disks into final cymbal shapes. During this process, the particular frequencies and harmonics desired in the final cymbal are selected from the vast sound potential inherent to the alloy.
Our deep body of knowledge about cymbal alloys is based on our family member’s life times of experimentation, experience, and research. We continually update and innovate the mixture and exact characteristics of our alloys, which we develop and fine-tune together with world-renowned top metallurgists at our suppliers. We are the industry leader in discovering new mixtures and procedures, having introduced several alloys to cymbal making, including one for which we received a patent.
We use finished raw materials (round, flat disks) from several specialized foundries and rolling mills. We select these suppliers due to their specialized and superior technical abilities and large scale of operations. It is simply not possible for the comparatively small casting and rolling volume requirements of a cymbal maker to achieve their level of consistency and quality. This ensures that our manufacturing process starts with raw materials that conform to the highest standards of consistency and helps guarantee the quality of every cymbal we make."

Notice they say it doesn't matter sheet or cast? Notice they say it's the consistency of their process that allows a superior, consistent product? Notice they put value on a consistent alloy? This is what I was saying, keep the alloy consistant and the cymbals will follow.

Again, this is from Paiste. Are they wrong?

In this case, Paiste is actually defending its sheet process in an effort to dismiss the longstanding myth that cast cymbals are superior. Whether you start with liquids that become sheets or pour those liquids individually, all cymbals end up being "cast" in the broadest sense of the term. Paiste simply rejects Zildjian's distinction between cast cymbals (K Series) versus sheet cymbals (S Series). It's a game of semantics, but the truth is that Paiste produces most of its cymbals in the same way Zildjian crafts its S series rather than in the way Zildjian makes its K lines.
 
. It's a game of semantics, but the truth is that Paiste produces most of its cymbals in the same way Zildjian crafts its S series rather than in the way Zildjian makes its K lines.

Or does Zildjian produce the S series in the way Paiste has been making cymbals for a long time? Haha, semantics!

I'm saying its the alloy. You keep bringing up sheet cymbals. I agree they are more consistant because they come from a sheet. I'm saying cast cymbals could be just as consistant if they replicated the alloy and hammering. Paying attention to and replicating the formula every time will produce consistant cymbals. They won't be perfect, but enough where I could buy the same one and know what I am getting.
 
Or does Zildjian produce the S series in the way Paiste has been making cymbals for a long time? Haha, semantics!

I'm saying its the alloy. You keep bringing up sheet cymbals. I agree they are more consistant because they come from a sheet. I'm saying cast cymbals could be just as consistant if they replicated the alloy and hammering. Paying attention to and replicating the formula every time will produce consistant cymbals. They won't be perfect, but enough where I could buy the same one and know what I am getting.

Yeah, I'd say with the S Family, Zildjian has taken its lead from the Paiste playbook, and the results are good, though, in some ways, the Paiste playbook is a bit mysterious and misleading, as they don't use the term "cast" in the classic sense and as they're a bit tight-lipped about exactly what they do with some of their lines. That Paiste has excellent quality control is indisputable, however.

I don't know what you like in cymbals, but you should give the S Family a try. It's made from B12 alloy, whereas Ks are B20, of course. The S is brighter, though not piercing. The thin crashes, which are what I play, are superb, and because they're thin, they're tone is fundamentally lower. If you like higher tones, you can also get S medium-thin crashes and rock crashes. My Mastersound hi-hats are excellent as well, among the best I've ever played. With my medium ride, the stick articulation is nice, though the sustain is a touch long to my ears. I never crash the ride, so I'm able to keep its sustain in check for the most part.

I don't miss As and Ks at all. I sold them all a few years ago. Until Zildjian comes out with something better, I'm an S man.
 
Paiste do their thing and they're very good at it. I used them for years. For me their consistency is amazing but they don't have the character that the B20 guys do.

I moved over to Zildjian and found you have to play them in to get the best sound out of them. You can get some utter pigs but that's why you try before you buy. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. Also not breaking your favourite cymbals negates this problem all together ;)

Aren't Zildjian all computer hammered now? It's either an attempt at cost cutting or consistency.

If everything sounded the same it would be boring.....see pop music of today :)
 
This whole discussion is interesting, but I have some thoughts about it. While we all seem to agree that Paiste is more consistent, it seems people are overemphasizing the role of cast vs sheet cymbals. The quoted literature from Paiste can, in fact, be interpreted as an attempt to defend the sheet process, but here's something people seem to be overlooking. Paiste makes both "cast" and "sheet" cymbals, and they all seem to be consistent. So, I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that is the part of cymbal making that differentiates Paiste from others.

I believe Paiste simply uses more precisely manufactured alloys (which BTW also includes 80/20 bronze just like Zildjian and Sabian) and a more repeatable manufacturing process.

I am a huge fan of their manufacturing ability and consistency, but for the most part I don't prefer the actual sound of their cymbals. And that's the rub for a lot of players, as we've discussed. There is a real possibility that the unique process that creates Zildjian's sound is simply not as repeatable as Paiste's. I don't know for sure.

I think MrInsanePolack is on track with materials consistency, but I don't think it's the whole picture. I think manufacturing processes are an equally important part of the equation.
 
I don't know what you like in cymbals, but you should give the S Family a try. It's made from B12 alloy, whereas Ks are B20, of course. The S is brighter, though not piercing. The thin crashes, which are what I play, are superb, and because they're thin, they're tone is fundamentally lower. If you like higher tones, you can also get S medium-thin crashes and rock crashes. My Mastersound hi-hats are excellent as well, among the best I've ever played. With my medium ride, the stick articulation is nice, though the sustain is a touch long to my ears. I never crash the ride, so I'm able to keep its sustain in check for the most part.
All my cymbals are old, vintage pieces (1980 or earlier). Completely irreplaceable because there is no consistency. Can't just go to the store and get another 67-77 18" Turkish K.

If the cymbal makers were consistent, I could replace my irreplaceable cymbals. But they aren't, so I can't.

I'm not looking to replace them either.
 
All my cymbals are old, vintage pieces (1980 or earlier). Completely irreplaceable because there is no consistency. Can't just go to the store and get another 67-77 18" Turkish K.

If the cymbal makers were consistent, I could replace my irreplaceable cymbals. But they aren't, so I can't.

I'm not looking to replace them either.

You've got to keep those gems for sure. You can celebrate that such specimens have a one-of-a-kind sound. Your inability to replace them increases their value.
 
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