Carnivore diet.

Status
Not open for further replies.

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
I am an ominvoritarian. I feel strongly about having an ideal mix of vegetables with a small amount of meat on my pizza. This is obviously a morally superior diet. It makes me upset when I go into pizza places and I have to choose between a meat pizza and a vegie pizza, with nothing in between. Or at least nothing that is reasonably priced. How hard is that to sprinkly some onions, peppers and a few slices of pepperoni or sausage on a pizza. No they charge a dollar per topping. What a load of 💩
 

Chris Whitten

Silver Member
In Italy (Mediterranean) most people opt for one or two toppings maximum. I know your post was tongue in cheek.
But the classic pizza is mozzarella and tomato, or add prosciutto, or add fungi, or olives, or anchovies etc.
The meat fest kind of pizza is entirely American and does my head in.
Most things in the American style diet (now exported to the UK, Australia, Europe) are excessive.
You hardly ever see anyone drunk in France or Italy either, unless they are a tourist.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
Science is a process so facts change a lot. I remember I took a Human nutrition course in 80s (Heinz book of Nutrition I think). Since then many things have changed -then some changed back-like eggs went from perfect food to bad, to good again. Tthere is a big genetic component too (just like some people can digest lactose) so really designing your diet is a lot like designing your cancer treatment-just depends on your genes. It's interesting that besides the Mediterranean diet the high fat Inuit diet also displays the low incidence of cardiovascular disease, stroke, diabetes., Alzheimer's, etc. It's something about the types of fats/oils in their diets. It's so ironic that fats were demonized so long-it's the amounts and types you consume.
 

Chris Whitten

Silver Member
Science is a process so facts change a lot.
Not really. This is a common furfy people bring up. There are FACTS. Like the earth is round. It's not up for debate anymore. Cigarettes are heavily implicated in cancer and heart disease, it's not in debate, or unverified.
People with certain diets are healthier and live longer (especially rural Japan, rural Mediterranean). They have been researched for decades.
The thing about fats in the med diet is that they are whole foods, unprocessed - cream, butter, olive oil. They are also consumed in moderation, as a luxury, as part of a heavily fruit and veg focussed diet.
In contrast, regions that have adopted the largely American influenced, high fat, high meat, highly processed diet are experiencing more illness, more obesity and shorter life expectancy.
 

Bozozoid

Gold Member
Science is a process so facts change a lot. I remember I took a Human nutrition course in 80s (Heinz book of Nutrition I think). Since then many things have changed -then some changed back-like eggs went from perfect food to bad, to good again. Tthere is a big genetic component too (just like some people can digest lactose) so really designing your diet is a lot like designing your cancer treatment-just depends on your genes. It's interesting that besides the Mediterranean diet the high fat Inuit diet also displays the low incidence of cardiovascular disease, stroke, diabetes., Alzheimer's, etc. It's something about the types of fats/oils in their diets. It's so ironic that fats were demonized so long-it's the amounts and types you consume.
I'd come to learn that animal fats were not the cardiovascular problem. It was trans fats that caused hardening and narrowing of the arteries. The transfat thing is eye opening.
 

Chris Whitten

Silver Member
From Harvard Edu:
'Saturated fats are common in the American diet. They are solid at room temperature — think cooled bacon grease, but what is saturated fat? Common sources of saturated fat include red meat, whole milk and other whole-milk dairy foods, cheese, coconut oil, and many commercially prepared baked goods and other foods.
Is saturated fat bad for you? A diet rich in saturated fats can drive up total cholesterol, and tip the balance toward more harmful LDL cholesterol, which prompts blockages to form in arteries in the heart and elsewhere in the body. For that reason, most nutrition experts recommend limiting saturated fat to under 10% of calories a day.'
'Good fats come mainly from vegetables, nuts, seeds, and fish. They differ from saturated fats by having fewer hydrogen atoms bonded to their carbon chains. Healthy fats are liquid at room temperature, not solid.'
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
A common "Flurfy" people bring up? My perspective isn't a "flurfy" it's decades of being a cardiovascular researcher and publishing in that field-so I'm not naive of the research. But I'll let you learned people go at it-I was just adding context. A lot has changed with genetics, metabologenomic, epigenomics, gut flora-mucosa interactions related to diet, cancer, and immunology.
 

Bozozoid

Gold Member
School me on the LDL thing. If the body doesn't have enough of it..it will produce it..for arterial repair. It's trans-fats that confuses the body into thinking it's an acceptable LDL? but accumulates causing the narrowing?. Are trans fats the ones with the molecular deconstruction due to oils being heated to high temperatures such as fries..anything DEEP fried?.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
Not really. This is a common furfy people bring up. There are FACTS. Like the earth is round. It's not up for debate anymore. Cigarettes are heavily implicated in cancer and heart disease, it's not in debate, or unverified.
People with certain diets are healthier and live longer (especially rural Japan, rural Mediterranean). They have been researched for decades.
The thing about fats in the med diet is that they are whole foods, unprocessed - cream, butter, olive oil. They are also consumed in moderation, as a luxury, as part of a heavily fruit and veg focussed diet.
In contrast, regions that have adopted the largely American influenced, high fat, high meat, highly processed diet are experiencing more illness, more obesity and shorter life expectancy.

This is actually completely wrong. Americans have in fact never consumed less meat than they do today. The issue is not the meat and fat(fully digestible nutrition with almost no waste and no anti-nutrients), it's the soda, bread, plant oils and Doritos.

Those very few who still eat an ancestral diet of only meat unless they're forced to eat other things during lean times have non of the health issues with contribute to it. this was never true. Like, if you want to use the Inuit for proof you must look at those few who still eat a traditional diet, not those who have adopted the modern Western diet, which they can handle even way less than we can because they're not adapted to it at all.

I'd come to learn that animal fats were not the cardiovascular problem. It was trans fats that caused hardening and narrowing of the arteries. The transfat thing is eye opening.

Yup. The whole cholesterol hypothesis is wrong, not just that, but intentionally so. So, more than wrong, it's a lie. Cholesterol becomes the "problem" not because fat is bad, it's our main energy source as it is for most animals, but we're not able to process it properly due to high glycation and inflammation.

This is a conspiracy theory that actually happens to be true and the evidence is available for everyone to see. Ancel Keys did the well known 7 Nations Study to find correlation, but the fun thing is that there were initially 23 nations in that study. Guess what the results from the other 16 said.

Plant oils became the health thing as they lower cholesterol and sugar became what we pumped into everything to make it taste good now that we started removing the fat. Do plant oil lower cholesterol? Yes. That's the wrong question, though. Do you want to lower cholesterol? Probably not. A full lipid panel is intersting and can give you some useful information, but having above average LDL and total cholesterol is probably not it. Now, HDL/triglyceride ratio, size and number of LDL particles( as some believe), fasting insulin, Apo B are a different story and sadly something most doctors at this point don't know why they would test for. It's still cholesterol hysteria and prescribing statins, the pharmaceutical industry's most profitable drug, like candy. The statistics are actually true, but irrelevant if you look at the whole picture and the side effects are generally not worth it unless you've already had a couple of events.

If animal fat was so bad our species would have died out a long time ago.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
School me on the LDL thing. If the body doesn't have enough of it..it will produce it..for arterial repair. It's trans-fats that confuses the body into thinking it's an acceptable LDL? but accumulates causing the narrowing?. Are trans fats the ones with the molecular deconstruction due to oils being heated to high temperatures such as fries..anything DEEP fried?.
I could give you a lecture-but you'd have to pay me LOL. Naw here's a nice review of lipoproteins. Remember lipids are insoluble in water/blood so need carriers, then you synthesize about 80% of your cholesterol-so dietary is a small portion of total. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK305896/
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
From Harvard Edu:
'Saturated fats are common in the American diet. They are solid at room temperature — think cooled bacon grease, but what is saturated fat? Common sources of saturated fat include red meat, whole milk and other whole-milk dairy foods, cheese, coconut oil, and many commercially prepared baked goods and other foods.
Is saturated fat bad for you? A diet rich in saturated fats can drive up total cholesterol, and tip the balance toward more harmful LDL cholesterol, which prompts blockages to form in arteries in the heart and elsewhere in the body. For that reason, most nutrition experts recommend limiting saturated fat to under 10% of calories a day.'
'Good fats come mainly from vegetables, nuts, seeds, and fish. They differ from saturated fats by having fewer hydrogen atoms bonded to their carbon chains. Healthy fats are liquid at room temperature, not solid.'

Yeah. Complete bullshit that most people still sadly buy into. Never proven and noe finally disproved almost as much as anything can be and still being so more every day.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
Since plant oils entered the discussion, here ya go.

 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
There is some merit to Odd’s posit. Because the story isn’t complete with saturated fats as this article hints. Everything changes like modest alcohol was good for heart but now that is in question with association of increased rrisk of cancer or heart disease . Some things change faster than you can keep up with. https://www.livescience.com/is-saturated-fat-bad-for-you
 
Last edited:

JimmyM

Platinum Member
I’ve done meat only diets, and every single time I’ve done it, I get violently ill and throw up a lot. Every single time. Meanwhile when I do vegan, I feel much better for about a week, then I start feeling weak. I don’t pretend to know a ton about nutrition but I can tell you what happens to me. And a decent balance that’s slanted towards veganism with a small piece of white meat on occasion works best for me. Ymmv.
 

Chris Whitten

Silver Member
Yeah. Complete bullshit that most people still sadly buy into.
You're just kicking against the research AND just basic common sense.
The evolution into Homosapiens never included a meat heavy diet. It was always hunter gatherer, with large amounts of plant matter mixed in with the luxury of meat.
Commonsense-wise, with SO much evidence pointing to the cancer causing, heart disease creating aspect of a meat heavy diet, especially charred meat and smoked meat, AND manufactured processed meat. At the same time the traditional Med inhabitant is healthier and lives longer, as do the fish and veg eating Japanese.
The people casting doubt (as usual) are the big corporations that profit from meat consumption and processed foods.
If I had to decide for myself NOT using the science, I would guess on the side of traditional food culture over corporate culture.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
You're just kicking against the research AND just basic common sense.
The evolution into Homosapiens never included a meat heavy diet. It was always hunter gatherer, with large amounts of plant matter mixed in with the luxury of meat.
Commonsense-wise, with SO much evidence pointing to the cancer causing, heart disease creating aspect of a meat heavy diet, especially charred meat and smoked meat, AND manufactured processed meat. At the same time the traditional Med inhabitant is healthier and lives longer, as do the fish and veg eating Japanese.
The people casting doubt (as usual) are the big corporations that profit from meat consumption and processed foods.
If I had to decide for myself NOT using the science, I would guess on there side of traditional food culture over corporate culture.

Actually, no. You show no evidence of being on my level of knowledge in regards to this at all. None.

This is traditional food culture. The real tradition.

I don't really know where you get your information, but it looks extremely shallow. Like tabloid level.

As stated earlier, I don' preach. I don't need to. I know this works for me and quite a few other people. I can't really stop you from pooping on my thread either. Freedom of speech and all that, but..

You and Justin can follow the "science". I don't really care.

What you're saying tis the stuff we read in the papers when I was a teenager 30 years ago and I very quickly found out that things are a bit more complicated.
 

Mediocrefunkybeat

Platinum Member
The 'real' tradition of eating meat for every meal?

If humans were 'traditionally' carnivores, our teeth would be very different. We'd have more incisors and fewer molars. Homo Sapiens Sapiens are a species of omnivores, which gives us a great evolutionary advantage as we are hugely adaptable to different environments.

Primitive societies were hunter-gatherers. The emphasis being on 'gatherers'. Hunting for meat was a risky business that had great rewards but meat was only eaten when it was available, which was occasional. Hunting is difficult and trapping is unreliable. Coastal communities had the advantage of catching fish and shellfish, which made up a considerable portion of diet (as evidenced by midden mounds) but also had a large portion of their diets catered for by foraging. Meat would therefore be considered a luxury and in some parts of the World, meat is still in short supply and only eaten when available.

The modern availability of meat would be unthinkable to primitive societies. Meat alone cannot provide a healthy diet over a long time as it lacks some of the essential vitamins that plant matter can provide. We are spoiled for choice in the West and the fact that people think that this 'primitive' diet has any validity in terms of 'tradition' is not only nutritionally suspect but also anthropologically incorrect.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
I’ve done meat only diets, and every single time I’ve done it, I get violently ill and throw up a lot. Every single time. Meanwhile when I do vegan, I feel much better for about a week, then I start feeling weak. I don’t pretend to know a ton about nutrition but I can tell you what happens to me. And a decent balance that’s slanted towards veganism with a small piece of white meat on occasion works best for me. Ymmv.

A lot more information is needed. Like what exactly did you eat.

Should you want to try and you're not adapted it could take you 3 months, 6 months even a year for things to work.

That would be the main reason why gradual adaptation instead of just jumping in is advisable for most people.

Common thing is eating too little fat which when you don't eat carbs needs to at least 1/1 with protein. 80/20 is more or less there. Chicken, lean cuts of meat etc..., not so much.

I eat about 200-250 of each protein and fat pr. day. Some days less, but on days I work out hard, it can be substantially more.

Simply, there's an adaptation phase, you need to do it right and loss of electrolytes are common in the beginning, so you may need to supplement those until you're fully adapted. It's not that meat is low in potassium and other electrolytes, it's not, but you drop a lot of them initially when the carbs go.

If you're lucky it takes just a couple of weeks, but if you're not already doing something similar it takes months for most people. If doing from a high carb diet you would be asking your body to completely change and burn mainly fat for energy.

There is a method and it will generally take a while. There may also be nuances in type of meat that works for you. Beef, lamb and other fatty red meat is about as nutritious as you can get, but nothing wrong with fish and seafood which may work better for some. We're not all the same which is one of the obvious problems with any sort of militant all encompassing health advice.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top