Carnivore diet.

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Chris Whitten

Silver Member
Farmers actually cut their fields and store grass in winter. Additional food has absolutely nothing to do with winter which tells me you are generalizing about stuff you seem to know very little about.
I lived next door to a dairy for 7 years and raised two cattle myself from mother's milk to full adulthood. If you've never raised a cow I could say you know very little, but I won't be that rude.
Giving them summer grass all depends on the season, whether the grass grew well, or whether there was a drought. It's not always possible to feed only on hay from the summer. In the UK we were feeding them hay over the summer, because all the grass was eaten, brown and crusty from the very hot weather. Which means there is less hay to give them this winter.
In addition, you keep answering things from your own point of view, while making sweeping global claims. The simple fact is, most people can't avoid eating meat from Brazil, or avoid meat that has been reared on imported fodder, often grown at the cost of the environment. Most people aren't eating meat that was raised locally, most have no idea where the meat came from.
We're either talking ONLY about you, or we're talking about the over consumption of meat globally and the damage it's doing to the environment.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
In addition, you keep answering things from your own point of view, while making sweeping global claims.

It seems to me that's the only thing you're doing yourself.

As for example, none have been provided.

This is arguing for arguing's sake.

You are not adding value to this discussion. Very strong opinions, little knowledge.

Projection is the only thing you are doing, which is something I don't really care for. That's a long story, but a growing problem in society and gets old really fast.

I'm done. Please argue with someone else, or don't.
 

Chris Whitten

Silver Member
You are not adding value to this discussion. Very strong opinions, little knowledge.
Only because you disagree with me.
I lived next door to a dairy for seven years and spoke to them about farming every day. I helped them out, driving the tractor etc. I raised two jersey calves myself for five years. Your experience is eating while surfing the web apparently.
You haven't answered any of my questions, so instead you back away.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
Farming itself has altered not only carbon cycle, but also nitrogen, phosphorus, and hydrological-then we destroy natures habitats/ecosystems and the carrying capacity it offers for diverse species-to land dedicated to us. It has had far greater impact than domestic cattle. It's well known we increase our carrying capacity at expense of other species-it's how we've driven extinction. It's alll human activity cattle are just a small part-as rice has a much larger footprint and feeds more people. China has reduced methane by allowing rice fields to dry-and it has increase productivity-however it also increased nitrous oxide that is a worse greenhouse gas=so they've magnified the problem (they also keep building and using more coal than rest of earth). I wonder just how many species of plants hunter-gathers consumed are extinct species but their phytochemical were partly responsible for their good health in fighting disease etc. We've destroyed most natural carbon sinks, lost biomass for any normal biogeochemical cycle, and then fossil fuels issues. Still once the earth goes green no one alive today will see carbon dioxide fall to below 300 ppm-because how long it takes for surface oceans (100 years), deep subsurface oceans (add another 1000 years) and then clean up by geochemical processes (10000 years) to lower atmospheric carbon dioxide . After PETM and while carbon dioxide was dropping from 1,000s part per million to 400 ppm and then below 300 ppm-it took 2,500 years to drop from 400 to 300 ppm for some historic context.

We have royally screwed up-and thinking "farming" and mainly plant-diet is the solution is just insane-since it's been a major negative factor in human evolution with disease and climate change. I don't believe humans can give up our farming/industrialized/technological society and global trade-but it's resulted in a huge explosion of human population at expense of rest of life-the cause of climate change. I don't believe, at this date, there is much we do unless there is a massive loss of human population and humans learn to live with the resources locally. Global trade has destroyed ecosystems introducing invasive species, viruses, bacteria, fungi from habitats to new habitats. Now a zoonotic virus jumping to human chances to produce a global pandemic are almost guaranteed because of global travel-they expect them every five years or so in future is a prediction. The genie is out of the bottle and no putting him back.

I remember back in 80's ,before I was married and had a family I was super depressed and thinking about human actives and climate change-so a means to eliminate a good fraction of humanity because of concern of climate change and it's "man-made" became my thought experiment. All the sequences of all human pathogens are published in Pubmed (it wasn't public then) and I was designing a chimeric virus using all pathogenic sequences from ebola, small pox, etc. and the idea was to encapsulating and package it in a Trojan horse common adenovirus as my carrier-basically like the J&J vaccine (any first year grad student can grow adenovirus-and (though it would take longer than now) I believed I could pull it off in year . Yeah it was sick and I'm horrified I ever entertained the idea. You can do it now in weeks and that haunts me with a fear some Unabomber nut or terrorist would do it. Because of my faith in evolution I didn't believe I could have eradicated all humanity-but my design was to destroy all and thinking it would produce a new Founder population-much like all modern humans outside of Africa are from a human bottleneck about 60k years ago that most were lost and since we replenished earth. In any case war, disease, and famine will take care of human population-so my thought experiment was just mental masterbation. A lot like this thread LOL.

You know instead of just waving your hands-so it sounds like "your opinion" there is a huge body of knowledge you can highlight to support your posit. You can then just argue merits of evidence-which opens up more papers and other ideas. So it opens a bag of worms. . There isn't just one diet-no more than one cancer treatment. If you had to choose a cancer treatment based on research using "race" as a category as much of old literature there is a greater chance of death than now with genetic testing (because our genes have traveled the globe so race has produced fallacious studies-I can list numerous pharmacological studies using race category to decide drug choices that have all been falsified with genetic evidence. It's ironic the category of race itself produced health disparities for falsely not recommend a drug of choice from the ecological fallacy from race category. One thing I note is this "consensus" idea-it doesn't mean it's settled or fixed- it's just a convention that a lot believe that most of evidence supports something "presently"-but there is always other camps that disagree-in the process of science these minor ideas often replace the other as consensus. If you read any biology text book you'll find the idea of a "species" but there is over a dozen definitions and the consensus is now there isn't really a species (it's a made up human convention) it all about populations . I've published a couple of papers that falsified long standing hypotheses with thousands of peer-reviewed papers in support in defiance of the general consensus. Smooth muscle relaxation has been all about calcium fluxes/microdomains and level of myosin light chain phosphorylation (and other contractile apparatus proteins interactions) but out of the blue and unexpected the small heat shock protein I helped discover directly produces force suppression.This protein was first noted in 2d gels phosphoprotein analysis examining cyclic-nucleotide dependent vasorelaxation in 70s. But I finally took the project to completion with sequencing and identifying phosphorylation sites , and I made cell permeable mimetic peptides (using a virus domain to get into cell) that would suppress force linearly with peptide concentration. But it didn't mean squat-as this mechanism still trivialized. Well now my work has been supported by numerous other labs, and the protein has been found in heart, skeletal muscle, and nerve-and in heart the expression of phosphoprotein protects against cardiac ischemic damage (I think there are randomized clinical trial now for cardio protection. So the protein keeps getting traction as being significant-but I haven't changed the consensus. I think the data that I and now numerous other labs have confirmed is a significant pathway. I can tell you I believe with impunity I'm correct and the consensus is wrong with smooth muscle physiology and ignoring these findings as trivial but I also believe the process of science will eventually vindicate me because so much support it will be part of consensus. Heck it may now since been a long time since I worked on it I'll have to read a modern review to see if the protein mentioned.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
Its pretty messed up to kill something just to make your tastebuds happy.

But thats just like, my opinion man.
If you're not a producer-a photosynthetic or chemosynthetic life form-you're a consumer so killing and eating producers or other consumers. It's the circle of life-haven't you seen Lion King LOL. I was just commenting on a FB post about lobsters-and they are sentient being feeling pain so we shouldn't eat them. Now this is mostly based on their nervous system expressing opioid receptors. Their antennae and body are covered with olfactory/taste receptors (I studied olfaction in spiny lobsters when I first started PhD), mechorecptors, proprioceptors, but they don't have temperature nor pain receptors we recognize nor their simple brain (with gut running through it lol) has pathway for pain. Now they respond to mechanical attack to escape predators. Still even if the life form feels pain that's pretty much what life is about. Life is all about pain-seems a fallacy argument ignoring all biology. Reproduction is painful or deadly in many species-but it doesn't stop the continuity of life. Pain or being a sentient being has nothing to do with biology-it is what it is with food chains. Humans are the greatest superpredator to dominate the planet-even Dinos pale in comparison-much to the Jurassic parks chagrin. Maybe one day humans will be extinct and Dinos revive and watch terrifying movies about humans being reintroduced after millions of years of extinction and how we put raptors to shame ROFL. Oh and lobster opioid receptors seem to be related to reproductive behaviors-and not pain. Humans are sentient being who feel pain and we love inflicting it on other humans with wild abandon-so we hardly have standing for such arguments related to other life forms.
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Diamond Member

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
I was reading "heaven" has gardens but no animals-no meat. Now hell has neither so I guess push come to shove I'll go vegan ROFL. I'm just kidding-not wanting to start a religion dead end to thread.

Since we are well on our way to produce ruminates that won't make methane (dietary and altering gut microbiome methane secretion) I don't see a need to limit them. I feel they are a great source of high value protein from low value grass-that has lower carbon footprint than farm arable land. Ruminates have always been critical to African food chains-as North America to support more life than without ruminates. We would be better to find some crop to replace rice. Rice is a C-3 metabolism plant and one of the dominate on planet feeding over half of earth as a mainstay- and these species have an issue from higher than normal for their species temperature with photorespiration (as well as methane and now nitrous oxide). .With higher temperatures they photorespire where they consume oxygen and photosynthetic efficiency plummets- besides chloroplast pathway (an enzyme called Rubisco) it involves mitochondria and peroxisomes . Corn is a C-4 plant and they don't undergo photorespiration and with rising temps so you can predict that C-4 plants will have an advantage and likely replace many C-3 species over time. Human landfills are a greater producer of methane than even waste water plants-we've learned to mitigate a lot in waste water treatment. With the new satellite imaging of methane you can see the huge footprint from rice , landfills., and most from oil and natural gas exploration. All of Asia and North Africa always lit up like a Christmas tree, as parts of US-mostly south. Ironically Brazil has a much lower methane footprint (and carbon dioxide) than India ,China, or US though the second largest producer of cattle. Now Brazil is second in cattle but has about same number of fossil fuel autos as India, both India and China grow 10-20x the amount of rice as Brazil, and Brazil ranks 25th in coal. Clearly all the other carbon footprint human activity) adds lots more greenhouse gases than cattle when you start looking at sources. We should be more worried about freshwater aquifers (and how we altered hydrological cycle) that are drying up on all continents so we will have less ability to feed ourselves. Then also these giant lakes from hydroelectric power damns are increasing seismic activity on all these large reservoirs. I was just reading an article how wind turbines are raising havoc with raptor populations and birds in general-birds are in an extinction event. So even green has negative impacts. We would screw up a wet dream.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
It's more than my taste buds. My body and my doc are also happier. This is also something I gradually got used to as chomping down on this amount of meat and never getting a quick boost from any carb didn't work until it did. Now it's very different and going back would for me personally and my experience be completely crazy. Never felt better.

Yes, science is ever evolving rarely without growing pains. The only real sin is to think we have found all the answers.

With the doctor's office there's a clear difference. The old docs pretty much follow what they did when they got out of school 40-50 years ago. The young docs are divided, but if they're interested in this stuff it's Keto? hmm Carnivore? Cool. It's a non issue with them as some of them are curious and studying the same stuff.

Most life forms are carnivores, Even some plants. We, the pigs and a few others are in the position being able to choose. Instead of having an ethical debate about eating animals or not what works the best for you is individual.

Fun fact is also that the ruminants are actually on an 80% fat diet. Not something we could achieve with the same food source, sort of requires a few more stages of digestion 4 to do that, so they do the job for us. What I'm eating is essentially concentrated grass.

This works for me 100x better than anything else. That's just how it is.

It is also a fact that animals are hurt in many ways. In my local environment I'm much more concerned about destroying their natural habitat than eating a few of them. Windmills get a lot of attention right now, as well they should, but draining of marshes, cutting down old pine forests that you replace with spruce for commercial purposes etc.. represent much worse things and those consequences are already here. Not many birds to hunt in my town anymore, but that damage was not caused by hunting.

I don't consider this unethical, I consider it part of a natural way of life. Many things each of us can do. Use less power, especially for heating if not necessary. To me that's eating your fat and putting on a sweater, but just look at consumption. Do you have to heat every room in the house, do you need to use your as much as you do etc... It's a whole picture like e.g. me running so hot on this diet I don't really spend much heating my home.

In a slightly more grand scheme of things as the late Mr. Carlin says, "The planet will be fine, we're ******:"

The assumptions og high meat consumption seems to be based on a picture of someone who generally does not care about their health. Chances are that all those other habits are the culprit.

As for cholesterol. No serious doctor believes this connection about consumption of cholesterol anymore. That's why the dietary guidelines of only 3-4 eggs pr. week were dropped a long time ago. Plenty of people who grew up with that advice who still believe it, though.

Regardless of how you feel about eating animals or plants or gawk, there is one thing that probably shouldn't be up for discussion at this point, refined sugar and if you already have metabolic issues, any sugar, really any sweetener, because it does stimulate your insulin production just from the taste. Just the smell or longing for it, really.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
GetAgrippa does the science and I do the abbreviated version.

 

Smoke

Silver Member
NOM NOM

Finally!

Wifey is away for a few weeks. Pressure cooker FTW!
What?!? No mushrooms?!? ;) Just finishing up slow-cooker pot roast from Sunday. Spousal unit chunks up the carrots bigger and would triple the onions from what I see on the cutting board. We seldom have celery in the frig unless she buys it on purpose. Looks like you're not in danger of starving while the Boss is away! Let me know if you've got leftovers!

Somebody mentioned that locally grown beef is too expensive - I paid $2.75 USD per pound of hanging weight, which included processing, vacuum packing and freezing. (We brought home everything - bones included - except for the tongue and organs. I would have used them, but it creeps the wife out to think that stuff is in the freezer) I'm not sure I could afford store-bought ground beef. Granted, the initial cash outlay for half a beef was rather large, which might be a hindrance for some.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
What?!? No mushrooms?!? ;) Just finishing up slow-cooker pot roast from Sunday. Spousal unit chunks up the carrots bigger and would triple the onions from what I see on the cutting board. We seldom have celery in the frig unless she buys it on purpose. Looks like you're not in danger of starving while the Boss is away! Let me know if you've got leftovers!

Somebody mentioned that locally grown beef is too expensive - I paid $2.75 USD per pound of hanging weight, which included processing, vacuum packing and freezing. (We brought home everything - bones included - except for the tongue and organs. I would have used them, but it creeps the wife out to think that stuff is in the freezer) I'm not sure I could afford store-bought ground beef. Granted, the initial cash outlay for half a beef was rather large, which might be a hindrance for some.

There you go. A bit of resourcefulness and money is saved.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
My kids starting giving me spices and herbs from Spiceology as gifts. Man you can take a shoe and make it taste like a delicacy with these spices. I've been really impressed. When first married I bought cheap cuts and used spices to flavor up. But since I've reduced my portions and generally had a pretty bland diet adding as little as I could cautious of salt, etc. So my palette is coming back to life wit flavor again. It's great you could spice up a turd to be a delight.
 
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