Being told what to play

[Lennytoons]

My 2 cents:

Could be a lot of things....... probably only one thing. (and it may be more about him than you!)

I'd lean toward a one on one with him and see where that leads. Also, you may consider asking yourself what the best possible outcome would be, and then ask yourself what can you do or say to move things in that direction. Ultimately, you can only be responsible for yourself.

I had a similar situation when the keyboard player in our band started telling me what I should play. Problem is, he was always wrong. He suggested a shuffle pattern on a song that wasn't a shuffle and it couldn't be played that way. I very politely told him I'd make a deal with him. I won't tell him how to play keyboards and he doesn't tell me how to play drums. I then told him that I was going to play the parts in the songs that I'd come up with OR what the MD directed me to play. In three years the MD has made two suggestions to me that I adopted and the song was improved. The band depends on me to drive most of the songs and I certainly don't need help from someone with bad rhythm and no feel for percussion. The last two bands I played in the lead singer/guitarists were also very good drummers. Not once did either of them try to change my playing. Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself while still being open to musical discussion on how to improve the song performance.

 

[Matched Gripper]

I had an argument with the guitarist over the last 2 rehearsals

We were rehearsing a standard and the guitarist stops the the song " Your playing is too busy, you need to play it sparser." I was taken aback as i have never had any direction from him over the 2 years we have played together. I changed my tack and played it much crisper and and gentler. It was agreed that this was how we would go forward

I have great respect for the guitarist and would never tell him how to play. Being told what to play to fit with his view of a song pissed me off

Next rehearsal we started the song ( with a reminder from the guitarist to play it as was done before ) I played the song as was agreed only to be called up on playing it wrong. "The recording has no drums so you need to keep it really pared back"

Now i have never tried to rehash particular recordings of songs and have studied the lyrics and built my own interpretation and have always been clear about that. My reply was "I think ill not drum on this song then" this did not go down well

I am worried that this the start of a change in aproach within the band. Any thoughts?

I don’t mind being given direction from the band leader. That’s his job. And taking direction is part of being a sideman’s job. Sometimes a band doesn’t have a true “leader.” In that case, I’m still open to suggestions from seasoned, knowledgeable, musicians. A lot depends on the type of band and genre of music.

On the other hand, I’ve been in situations where a curmudgeonly high level trumpet player, who wasn’t the leader, made a snarky non-constructive comment about my playing, and I responded by handing him my sticks and saying “show me.” Or, when one sax player said something about how Buddy Rich would have done it this way. And, I responded “when you start playing like Don Menza,” I’ll start playing like Buddy Rich.

 

[doggyd69b]

I'd give it one more rehearsal and see how it goes. If it goes the same as these past two have gone, then maybe it's time to explore other options. Guitar players have bad days and even bad seasons in their lives as well. You may be the victim of some sort of misdirected anger. You never know what demons their fighting; however, it's not your fight to fight either.

In short, try it again. Bite your tongue, and if the practice doesn't feel right anymore, then it's time to move on. YMMV.

Agree with most, except IF you are not the cause of his being upset, then why should you have to put up with the attitude?

This is one of the gripes I have with the current climate on things, people can be as rude as they want in the name of freedom of speech, but the moment you say something that they don't like, they immediately want you "cancelled".
I say nip that in the bud... respectfully of course, you don't want to give someone ammunition to use against you later by creating a hostile environment.
All things should be able to be discussed in a civilized manner, and now that you have had some time to think about it, you should be able to approach things in a more calm manner.
Maybe you might be over thinking something, or maybe you are right, either way, talk about it and come with a specific solution, no random changes whenever his mood changes, that is totally unfair to any musician to have to endure.

Finally remember you control your emotions not the other way around. (I learned that when I was 5 and still practice that to this day).

 

[doggyd69b]

Im certainly not ready to quit the band and want to make things work

I wonder of this is a buildup with his frustrations at my musical choices. I would class him as a perfectionist which is part of his musical brilliance. I think it must be tough being like that

Im not a perfectionist but im no meathead who steamrolls through a song without trying to serve fellow musicians. I guess I can try even harder to make him sound even better

Hence the several mentions to ask him to provide SPECIFIC guidance on what he wants.

 

[doggyd69b]

Why do people get worked up about suggestions and requests to play something a certain way? Every band I’ve been in that was worth a crap has done that, and every band that didn’t or got angry about being told what to play pretty well sucked.

That said, some people can be dicky about it. Took me a hot minute to figure that out and try not to be dicky. But some people hear the overall picture better than others, and sometimes someone is just plain in charge and wants it that way.

Ken, I don’t want to speak on your situation because you may very well be right on with your thoughts, or you may not. But I would say two years without being asked to change what you do may be a record, and it’s way more than I’ve ever had, even when I was the BL.

I have been in bands playing covers as well as bands with mostly originals (if not originals our very different from the original version of some songs).
The only time we kept changing things was during the construction of the songs.
After the songs were completed, they remained pretty much unchanged, we even kept the rehearsal set pretty much the same to aid in memorizing the amount of material.
Very seldom a change was suggested (suggested not demanded) and when everyone agreed, it was then implemented.
Usually this change would be on a part that we completed before but were not 100% happy with.
Either the guitar player or I would come up with an improved version and we brought it to the next rehearsal.
Sometimes my suggestions got rejected but I never got upset. Sometimes the other guy's suggestions got rejected. It was a complete democracy even though we did have a band leader.
Also, what may sound better to me, (a more solid fill or a different pattern for certain part), might throw off the guitar or bass player, or maybe, the singer used certain parts to juggle his lyrics around, and now those parts being absent throw him off.
Who knows any number of things can be the reason for a part change or for a part to remain unchanged....

 

[Cmdr. Ross]

The key to any relationship is honest communication. Is it just this particular tune that he wants changed? Maybe he's right. See it objectively. Is he nitpicking or criticizing your playing in general? A good ol' "Hey, Man, Let's Talk This Out" moment should be had. I work with a band of monster musicians that have played together for 50 years. Sometimes, the guitarist will comment on what I do with constructive criticism, other times he'll praise what I'm doing. It's about honesty and what the song truly calls for, which can sometimes be different than our individual interpretation. Best, MT

I was in the very situation.
I won an audition for a band and was told "Welcome to the family. You do you, man!"
Until I started "doing me" and was continually told it's either wrong, that I needed to tweak this or that or that I should just stick to how the recording was played.

I may have won, but as I got into it, I was clearly the loser. They wanted a drummer-in-a-box in human form rather than play to a backing track.
It was awful.

I will say that I tried desperately to get along to no avail. I'm really big into communication & he wasn't, so it went nowhere. Maybe I was coming off as trying too hard, but it was clear that no matter what I did, it wasn't going to work.

 

[jda]

Ken, you can hand him the sticks and ask him to show you what he means...
then sit back down and play (what he played) perfectly..
If he doesn't smile then.

 

[KenDoken]

Ken, you can hand him the sticks and ask him to show you what he means...
then sit back down and play (what he played) perfectly..
If he doesn't smile then.

I did toy with that idea but i have learned that putting people on the spot tends to mess things up for everyone. Maybe this is partly why I got pissed off. Me and Mr G travel together so we have plenty time to argue the relative merits of approaches to songs 1to1

I think my suggestion of sitting out of the song is pretty solid really I just wish I couldve presented it in a better way. I would like the opportunity to go to the bar and watch the band do their thing. My guess is the song will be quietly shelved which is fine as we are not short of material

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

I'm sure its been brought up, but all too often guitarists will tell drummers what to play, but drummers almost never tell the guitarists what to play. Why is that?

Because in many groups the guitar is the lead instrument. Mind you not always the leader as in band leader, but lead instrument. Like if it's a jazz trio like my current group, the jazz guitar is lead instrument. Only other instrument is bass. On instrumental tunes the guitar does most of arranging. On vocals or singer is the lead.

 

[Otto]

Respect and empathy are key social shock absorbers that allow 'peer' projects to endure.

Might be worth that conversation with the guitar player...that his stepping into a dictatorial role was poor social hygiene....along with encouragement to respectfully converse about composition?

I would make it clear that the problem is 'how it was done' not 'his idea' as he is probably focused on a refutation of the idea...and probably not a power move?(or, at least, that would be how I take it in order to move past it).

If he can't play nice with others it will show on the bands report card.

 

[TOMANO]

I was in the very situation.
I won an audition for a band and was told "Welcome to the family. You do you, man!"
Until I started "doing me" and was continually told it's either wrong, that I needed to tweak this or that or that I should just stick to how the recording was played.

I may have won, but as I got into it, I was clearly the loser. They wanted a drummer-in-a-box in human form rather than play to a backing track.
It was awful.

Yeah, that happens, too. Been there. Musicians are a strange breed.

 

[Stickflailer]

I understand your frustration but unfortunately this is all part of being in a band. When I started playing in a bands if there was constructive criticism from a more experienced musician I was ok with it but if the individual was condescending or just a jerk I would try to find common ground If that didn’t work I just found other musicians to play with.

This self help book The Four Agreements has helped me many times. What really works for me is instead of reacting with anger in the moment
is to just take time and respond calmly. In my experience if I‘m feeling annoyed or angry it’s best to just keep my teeth together and work on me.
Hang in there brother and don’t let anyone steal your fun.

 

[Chris Whitten]

I was in the very situation.
I won an audition for a band and was told "Welcome to the family. You do you, man!"
Until I started "doing me" and was continually told it's either wrong, that I needed to tweak this or that or that I should just stick to how the recording was played.

This happens all the time and at every level of the industry. 2/3rds of marriages end in divorce because one party isn't satisfied and is trying to change the partner. People hire you thinking they can mould your way of playing to better suit their vision. I see it as an opportunity to learn, see drums from another perspective. I can't always change enough to suit the 'boss' and that's why I have often left bands after a year or two.

 

[Juniper]

When it comes to disagreements over parts with guitarists I try and remember that, unless you are a multi instrumentalist, drummers and guitarists almost speak in two separate languages and both sides can’t sometimes convey what they mean fully.

Recently me and a guitarist couldn’t agree on how break down sections of two separate songs were played.

He swore blind that all the instruments lowered in volume, me and the bassist were pointing out that on both songs everything simply cuts out leaving just the drums and bass, played at the same volume as before. Simply, no guitars or keyboards.

In the end we had to play him the songs we were covering so he could hear our point and he accepted his mistake on both occasions.

We then found compromises that everyone was happy with.

The end results? Disagreements nipped in the bud early on.

No one fell out as neither parties took it personally and it wasn’t allowed to turn into something else, just one of those things that was sorted out without any drama or ill feelings.

Talking about things calmly always helps and ask him to try and explain why the previously played parts aren’t sounding the same to him.

Hopefully you can find a common ground with regards to the situation and you can all put this behind you.

 

[mikyok]

It's nothing to worry about dude. If a song has no drums they probably just want something to keep them all in time. Tambourine and/or a couple of egg shakers will do the job nicely.

Quite a lot of the time what works on a recording doesn't sound right live and it takes a bit of trial and error to make something work. I play guitar too so I get on with them and know what they're on about most of the time. (That's not to say there aren't the weapons grade helmets out there!)

It'll work itself out. He's probably just not very good at conveying his ideas or it's his time of the month (the latter is known to happen a lot with singers and guitarists lol!)

 

[I-P]

Guitarist has jammed with another drummer. He/she be getting cocky.
There is likely more going on internally in the band than "you" know. (I hope I'm wrong).
Be prepared.

Good luck with it.

 

[Cmdr. Ross]

This happens all the time and at every level of the industry. 2/3rds of marriages end in divorce because one party isn't satisfied and is trying to change the partner. People hire you thinking they can mould your way of playing to better suit their vision. I see it as an opportunity to learn, see drums from another perspective. I can't always change enough to suit the 'boss' and that's why I have often left bands after a year or two.

I too saw that as an opportunity to grow and you can bet I tried to do things his way. Until no matter what I did, it just wasn't enough. I definitely learned a lot about my ability & drive as a drummer, but it also reinforced my lack of faith in the goodness of humanity.

 

[iCe]

I don't mind when someone has an idea for a drumpart and shares it with me, but it has to be a concrete idea. Most of the times when someone 'beatboxes' the beat i get an idea what the groove is they have in their head. Trail and error from there. But for the rest i like to find out my own parts and I'm my own worst critic haha. Guitar player can like the groove, but still i think 'nah, this is not connecting to the feel of the part'.

But i start to digress again... the first band i was in the bandleader had a habit of changing the structure of the song on the fly. Really annoying when i was playing the part i always played to see that guy waving his hands trying to convey to play slower or quieter or not at all. Quit that band after a few times, really annoying not knowing where a song is going. Having said that, i have no problems with someone suddenly stopping the song to share an idea. Sometimes that has lead to some great moments when we were struggling with a part getting to flow, but i hate it when someone is just waving his hands and not communicating vocally. Did ask what he wanted, but all i got was 'something else'. Not the best feedback xD

 

[BruceW]

Its happened occasionally in my band(s) over the years, but not to the extreme Ken has experienced. Understand that our MD is also a Music Director for a high school, in addition to being MD for his National Guard band, so he's very well rounded, and used to directing people. Every so often he'll ask me to play something a little differently, often with him trying to make the sounds that he wants me to play, which is hilarious. I try and interpret that into something that I can do, and we usually get close.

Rarely have we ever even gotten to the level of an argument about what I play. Fortunately. I try to get to where he wants it, mixed with how I am able to play it. Sometimes I just have to tell him that "I can't do that, how about this?" And we find some middle ground. Been with this guy 9 years now, so we must be able to communicate a little...

I feel for you, Ken. Hope you guys can get to some common ground.

 

[eddypierce]

I had that come up in the roots rock band I was in last year. We were doing "Lady Madonna," and I played it with two sticks, the way I've always done. The singer/guitarist went so far as to send me a YT video of a Japanese guy playing along with the record using a brush and a stick, and basically ordered me to play it that way, which I did to shut him up.

I quit the band a month later when I simply couldn't take his BS anymore.

Did the band leader think that's what Ringo did? If so, he's wrong--on the original recording, Ringo played with (two) sticks, and then overdubbed a track with brushes (or vice versa). If I had to play it live, I'd play it with two sticks as well.