Beginner, learning roadmap

I'm thinking (which I don't know) that drumming skill is more about how creative you are. Of course your timing and precision are always important, but being creative seems to be the factor because there can be many different ways to drum to a song. I guess it would be like art, how people can like a certain style of art over another. And the more people like your style the better you are... But WTFDIK?
 
I'm thinking (which I don't know) that drumming skill is more about how creative you are. Of course your timing and precision are always important, but being creative seems to be the factor because there can be many different ways to drum to a song. I guess it would be like art, how people can like a certain style of art over another. And the more people like your style the better you are... But WTFDIK?
Creativity is certainly a factor, but as someone who plays bass and guitar much better than he plays drums, I would rather play with a drummer who sacrifices some level of creativity for keeping everything moving on the good foot, rather than someone very creative who can't pull off their ambitious ideas. Actually, that goes for all instruments.

But while there isn't a widely accepted curriculum that will show every single type of playing that's possible, there are standard conventions for reading and writing drum music, and it's widely accepted that for any other type of music besides classical that learning how to play jazz is your best all around bet for figuring out other genres quickly. Even if you want to play like Ringo or Phil Rudd, and I loooooove Ringo and Phil, learning jazz makes learning to play like them much easier, because then all you have to do is listen to their stuff for a while and pick up on their stylistic fine points. And you'll have probably covered music with that kind of brilliant simplicity in your training at some point.
 
I would think though that playing fast beats would make you a better drummer quicker than playing slow beats. Am I wrong?
If you want to play drums in a speed metal or hardcore punk band then yes, playing fast will make you a "better" drummer for that particular application, but it will not make you a better overall drummer. Just like playing really hard will make you good at playing loud, but will not make you good at playing quietly.

Learn to play comfortably to a click at a full range of tempos, then work on holding a solid tempo without the click. When I was teaching I'd start my students out playing a beat to an 8th note click, just lock the hi-hat in with the click and you're golden. When they had that down I'd change it to a quarter note click, then to a click just on 1 and 3 and just on 2 and 4, then the click just on one.
 
If you want to play drums in a speed metal or hardcore punk band then yes, playing fast will make you a "better" drummer for that particular application, but it will not make you a better overall drummer.
But isn't almost every drummer more focused on certain styles of drumming instead of being an overall drummer? Or would being a good overall drummer help you improve faster in your own style? I just can't see how learning to play jazz is going to help you be a better metal drummer, or playing country music is going to help you be better at playing punk rock. But WTFDIK?

Creativity is certainly a factor, but as someone who plays bass and guitar much better than he plays drums, I would rather play with a drummer who sacrifices some level of creativity for keeping everything moving on the good foot, rather than someone very creative who can't pull off their ambitious ideas. Actually, that goes for all instruments.

But while there isn't a widely accepted curriculum that will show every single type of playing that's possible, there are standard conventions for reading and writing drum music, and it's widely accepted that for any other type of music besides classical that learning how to play jazz is your best all around bet for figuring out other genres quickly. Even if you want to play like Ringo or Phil Rudd, and I loooooove Ringo and Phil, learning jazz makes learning to play like them much easier, because then all you have to do is listen to their stuff for a while and pick up on their stylistic fine points. And you'll have probably covered music with that kind of brilliant simplicity in your training at some point.

I would have thought the opposite. Jazz is so slow it seems like any kind of drumming that blends with it would be acceptable. After a few fast sessions playing fast music, I did not know what to do when my friend put a jazz song on. It was so slow all I could think to do was hit the splash symbols softly, but I guess finding ways to make drumming sound good with that music takes some skill
 
But isn't almost every drummer more focused on certain styles of drumming instead of being an overall drummer? Or would being a good overall drummer help you improve faster in your own style? I just can't see how learning to play jazz is going to help you be a better metal drummer, or playing country music is going to help you be better at playing punk rock. But WTFDIK?
Its perspective and what you choose to do with it. I coincidentally am a death metal drummer who studied with a jazz drummer. It wasnt like "you must play like this to be a metal drummer", rather "play like this and you can apply it to any drumming you want". It didnt matter what music my teacher was into at that point.

I wouldnt get too hung up on what the teacher plays as much as how they teach.
 
while I agree that the roadmap will be diverse, I believe there are a few essential things you can't/shouldn't skip:

1. learn how to count, read rhythms and subdivide pulse. This is "The Garage" that the road map starts in. It might be the band director in me, but over the past 30 years, I have encountered sooooo many musicians who spend years and tons of time and money trying to identify problems in their playing that just comes back down to not knowing how to read and count rhythms against a pulse

2. get with a teacher who will help you with the physical act of drumming. This is "The Car" that you will be driving on the road. Again, I have dealt with sooo many drummers who spend years and tons of time and money trying to identify problems in their playing because they ingrained bad physical motion habits


I feel like the act of drumming without a foundation in the two things above is just a "smoke and mirrors" endeavor

I tell all of my students that the greatest drummers master only two things: motion and space. And to master those, you need to know how to speak the language of both. The ones who do this usually have the most success the quickest.
 
But isn't almost every drummer more focused on certain styles of drumming instead of being an overall drummer? Or would being a good overall drummer help you improve faster in your own style? I just can't see how learning to play jazz is going to help you be a better metal drummer, or playing country music is going to help you be better at playing punk rock. But WTFDIK?


I would have thought the opposite. Jazz is so slow it seems like any kind of drumming that blends with it would be acceptable. After a few fast sessions playing fast music, I did not know what to do when my friend put a jazz song on. It was so slow all I could think to do was hit the splash symbols softly, but I guess finding ways to make drumming sound good with that music takes some skill
Sure, in order to play a certain style well, you have to listen and listen to absorb its fine points. I've heard great jazz drummers poop the bed on ACDC songs. But only because they're not familiar with Phil Rudd's style, which swings as hard as it rocks. And if you don't get the swing in, it's stiff like Simon Wright when he subbed. Great drummer, not the best choice for ACDC.

And considering jazz drummers pretty much invented speed drumming (Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, Louis Bellson, Tony Williams, Billy Cobham, Simon Phillips, etc), and many who studied jazz went on become known for other styles, I'd say it's a proven winner. Jazz teaches you pretty much everything you could apply to other styles (how to read, speed, taste, odd time sigs, playing at different volumes besides slamming), and then it's just a matter of absorbing the finer points of your favorite styles and applying what you learned in jazz.

There are no shortcuts, but a background in jazz is about as close to one as you get.
 
But isn't almost every drummer more focused on certain styles of drumming instead of being an overall drummer? Or would being a good overall drummer help you improve faster in your own style? I just can't see how learning to play jazz is going to help you be a better metal drummer, or playing country music is going to help you be better at playing punk rock. But WTFDIK?
I'm not focused on any specific style of drumming. My overall goal with drumming is to be able to hear a beat or pattern in my head and replicate it on the kit, not in any specific style or genre of music. I work a lot on speed/control both fast and slow, dynamics, holding a solid tempo, and when I was gigging always working to have creative transitions that help the flow of the music but stand out.

I think being a metal drummer and playing jazz would open up your creativity, there might not be a lot of carry-over from one to the other but I think it would be great to be a metal drummer that can play more than just typical metal fills. Take Flo Mounier for example, that guy adds jazz elements and elements of other styles of drumming to his extreme metal playing, of all the metal shows I've seen watching him with Cryptopsy was hands down the best live drumming I've witnessed. He's got style and flair that I really appreciate.
 
I'm not focused on any specific style of drumming. My overall goal with drumming is to be able to hear a beat or pattern in my head and replicate it on the kit, not in any specific style or genre of music. I work a lot on speed/control both fast and slow, dynamics, holding a solid tempo, and when I was gigging always working to have creative transitions that help the flow of the music but stand out.

I think being a metal drummer and playing jazz would open up your creativity, there might not be a lot of carry-over from one to the other but I think it would be great to be a metal drummer that can play more than just typical metal fills. Take Flo Mounier for example, that guy adds jazz elements and elements of other styles of drumming to his extreme metal playing, of all the metal shows I've seen watching him with Cryptopsy was hands down the best live drumming I've witnessed. He's got style and flair that I really appreciate.

there is total carry over from one to another b/c they both have form and phrasing that are very similar; the physicality of playing metal will result in more strength and dexterity for the jazz ride cymbal pattern and in fills; the space, groove control, and listening reaction of jazz would totally crossover to metal playing in your sense of time and feel, and in note placement and reaction in tricky rhythms, and in more tasty fill creation

I started drumming to jazz first in the late 70's, then got into the NWOBHM and all of the first wave of thrash and prog metal in the 80's, and the immersion in both genres totally fed into one another
 
Creativity is certainly a factor, but as someone who plays bass and guitar much better than he plays drums, I would rather play with a drummer who sacrifices some level of creativity for keeping everything moving on the good foot, rather than someone very creative who can't pull off their ambitious ideas. Actually, that goes for all instruments.

But while there isn't a widely accepted curriculum that will show every single type of playing that's possible, there are standard conventions for reading and writing drum music, and it's widely accepted that for any other type of music besides classical that learning how to play jazz is your best all around bet for figuring out other genres quickly. Even if you want to play like Ringo or Phil Rudd, and I loooooove Ringo and Phil, learning jazz makes learning to play like them much easier, because then all you have to do is listen to their stuff for a while and pick up on their stylistic fine points. And you'll have probably covered music with that kind of brilliant simplicity in your training at some point.

I totally agree with this sentiment. As a guitar/bassist I can't tell you how many times I've played with drummers who could riff all over the place but fell apart holding the groove together. They couldn't bail out of their flurry well enough to land on the beat. I prefer a guy who holds the tune together.
 
while I agree that the roadmap will be diverse, I believe there are a few essential things you can't/shouldn't skip:

1. learn how to count, read rhythms and subdivide pulse. This is "The Garage" that the road map starts in. It might be the band director in me, but over the past 30 years, I have encountered sooooo many musicians who spend years and tons of time and money trying to identify problems in their playing that just comes back down to not knowing how to read and count rhythms against a pulse

2. get with a teacher who will help you with the physical act of drumming. This is "The Car" that you will be driving on the road. Again, I have dealt with sooo many drummers who spend years and tons of time and money trying to identify problems in their playing because they ingrained bad physical motion habits


I feel like the act of drumming without a foundation in the two things above is just a "smoke and mirrors" endeavor

I tell all of my students that the greatest drummers master only two things: motion and space. And to master those, you need to know how to speak the language of both. The ones who do this usually have the most success the quickest.

I have decided to get a teacher. Once upon a time I took some college music courses. I was having a lot of trouble understanding rhythm so I bought a drum machine and started programming the note values in. Its amazing how that provided clarity to me that has forever helped me on other instruments.

I can crank out some beats on the drums but on guitar or bass I can hear a song on the car stereo, go home and play it. I can't do that with drums. I don't have enough mileage under my belt not to mention learning fills and transitions, and other stuff.
 
there is total carry over from one to another b/c they both have form and phrasing that are very similar; the physicality of playing metal will result in more strength and dexterity for the jazz ride cymbal pattern and in fills; the space, groove control, and listening reaction of jazz would totally crossover to metal playing in your sense of time and feel, and in note placement and reaction in tricky rhythms, and in more tasty fill creation

I started drumming to jazz first in the late 70's, then got into the NWOBHM and all of the first wave of thrash and prog metal in the 80's, and the immersion in both genres totally fed into one another
That makes sense, I'm not really a metal guy and I'm definitely not a jazz guy so I wasn't totally sure how much carry-over they have.
 
I have decided to get a teacher. Once upon a time I took some college music courses. I was having a lot of trouble understanding rhythm so I bought a drum machine and started programming the note values in. Its amazing how that provided clarity to me that has forever helped me on other instruments.

I can crank out some beats on the drums but on guitar or bass I can hear a song on the car stereo, go home and play it. I can't do that with drums. I don't have enough mileage under my belt not to mention learning fills and transitions, and other stuff.

yeah...that is all it takes...the combination of you figuring out beats on your own, and then hearing them in music will become that basis to figure stuff out on...just like it did with guitar and bass
That makes sense, I'm not really a metal guy and I'm definitely not a jazz guy so I wasn't totally sure how much carry-over they have.

there is carry over from every kind of drumming to every other kind. Stuff that I did in orchestra directly relates to stuff that I do in my punk bands...my double bass work is making my high hat foot more free to play within fills, as well as in beats in jazz; rudimental practice is/has been making my left hand more free to do whatever it wants....

my marching percussion experience was probably the single most important crossover activity to all the other percussion ones I do honestly. Marching band gave me speed, strength, independence, dexterity, listening skills, timing skills, space awareness, memorization, touch, genre awareness, melodic exposure, reading/sight reading skills, agility, recovery skills, reacting on the fly, gear awareness and repair knowledge...

so yeah...there are not exclusive traits to any kind of genre...there are things that don't feel or sound right...like "spang-a-lang" does not sound the best in a thrashy D -beat situation, but the dexterity gained in spang-a-lang will help me play the D-beat better
 
I can't tell you how many times I've played with drummers who could riff all over the place but fell apart holding the groove together.
On the opposite side, I can't tell you how many musicians fall apart every time I play a fill. Usually they speed up, but sometimes they lose the beat entirely. I'm talking about simple fills that that I can play easily with a metronome or better musicians. And those are always the same guys who want me to play more fills.
 
I've played with drummers who could riff all over the place but fell apart holding the groove together. They couldn't bail out of their flurry well enough to land on the beat. I prefer a guy who holds the tune together.
These things are not mutually exclusive
 
As a much older beginner but a bass player for 40 plus years I can tell you that drums is the single best instrument for sounding good without needing to know much. If you can play a rock steady groove to any popular tune then in my book as a bassist then you've kinda made it as a drummer, it just depends on what your expectations are. But, if you want to become the next Gadd, Vinnie et al then you gotta learn all the rudiments inside out and then some and then keep at it for hour after hour until your perfect.
 
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These things are not mutually exclusive
I know, I wasn't trying to be a snot and take a dump on drummers in general.

I was responding to the comment from another poster that I would rather play with a drummer who is steady than a drummer who is flashy but not a good time keeper. And that is a value statement regarding the kind of drummer that I would like to be.
 
I know, I wasn't trying to be a snot and take a dump on drummers in general.

I was responding to the comment from another poster that I would rather play with a drummer who is steady than a drummer who is flashy but not a good time keeper. And that is a value statement regarding the kind of drummer that I would like to be.
That approach served Ringo very well and still does. However, I've found that the flashy drummers that are loved by most musicians are also the ones who can hold down steady beats with even hits. To them it's a major priority that they don't let the flash get in the way of the beat. I think it's important to have some tricks up your sleeve, but if you let flash screw up your timing, not good.
 
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