New drummers prioritizing wrong gear?

C. Dave Run said:
Absolutely. The kid is playing heel/toe. Its definitely not cheating. And absolutely NO ONE can play that with one pedal. Not even Jojo.

The kid is also using a 10" snare. It has better rebound and far more attack available for clarity during blast beats. I suppose that is cheating also, even though one can clearly see full strokes and fantastic technique.

I'm so sick of people who cant play nor understand this music making assumptions about it and the folks who make it.
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I can see where some of those folks come from, when I watch Meytal Cohen play, I see about 6 camera angles which tells me that there is a lot of editing done in order to correct any mistakes, in other words she does the videos in multiple takes until every part of the song is played perfect then stitches all up to do a perfect playthrough (which by definition it is definitely NOT a playthrough since a playthrough would mean one take). then she goes into a DAW in order to correct any hits out of time and sound even more perfect. By that reasoning anybody can make a perfectly played video of any song ever. But regardless off all the cheating involved, she still had to learn the parts and be able to execute them in a way that matched the original recording and looked credible on video so there is some talent involved. Now about the triggers.... again us that have used triggers since the 80's understand that they don't make you play better or faster, and yes with VSTs you can have great sounding drums but you still have to be able to play them correctly. you can have the best sounding drums recorded in the best studio but if you can't play it is still going to sound bad, and it may sound even worse due to the amount of clarity that some of those tools provide.
 
s1212z said:
I can't figure what they are doing at the 1:20 mark, am i missing it as doubles or is it a trigger trick? Sort of weird, they play the singles at the end with the same tempo, so obviously they can play it. Is this the 'cheat' that gets mentioned? BTW, I wasn't looking for anything, just happen to notice while check their page.
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His kick is probably triggered. He is doing heel/toe with his feet. It's just like doubles with your hands, only using your feet.

After a certain speed, a kick drum sounds like mud. The trigger solves this issue. That's all it does. The kid is still playing each note with his feet two at a time.

If heel/toe is cheating than so are doubles and press rolls.

This right here is what the kids wanna learn:


Teachers take note. Your students want to do stuff you cant. They go to the internet and you scoff at them for it. Think about this for a second.
 
C. Dave Run said:
Until you can "cheat" like the rest of us, please stop. See the kid above and report back
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Let me clarify; I am talking about things most experienced drummers can play with one pedal, such as a few double strokes during a fill (think a Carlock or Weckl style fill). Two quick doubles in succession. Lots of seasoned players would do this on a single pedal, because we have experience at it and it is just two quick doubles in succession, which a lot of us can do. Many of these newer drummers "cheat" in that aspect and use the double pedal to play those two quick doubles.

I was not referring to playing many doubles in succession or during a whole song. Just a few quick doubles randomly together for a fill or ending.
 
C. Dave Run said:
Teachers take note. Your students want to do stuff you cant. They go to the internet and you scoff at them for it. Think about this for a second.
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That is a trend that needs to stop. I know Metal is not everyone's cup of tea, but a teacher should not discriminate based on his/her personal taste, if a student wants to learn something, then a good teacher will show him or at least point him in the right direction.
 
vyacheslav said:
Let me clarify; I am talking about things most experienced drummers can play with one pedal, such as a few double strokes during a fill (think a Carlock or Weckl style fill). Two quick doubles in succession. Lots of seasoned players would do this on a single pedal, because we have experience at it and it is just two quick doubles in succession, which a lot of us can do. Many of these newer drummers "cheat" in that aspect and use the double pedal to play those two quick doubles.

I was not referring to playing many doubles in succession or during a whole song. Just a few quick doubles randomly together for a fill or ending.
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Messhugga's Bleed is played with double pedal, but the right foot has to play a very fast double it goes something like this:
RLRR so it's NOT a triplet even though it sounds like one. I would love to see any of those experienced players being able to play that song all the way through. I said it before David Diepold can play David Weckl... David Weckl cannot play David Diepold. (There is a video of Diepold playing Weckl).
 
C. Dave Run said:
His kick is probably triggered. He is doing heel/toe with his feet. It's just like doubles with your hands, only using your feet.

After a certain speed, a kick drum sounds like mud. The trigger solves this issue. That's all it does. The kid is still playing each note with his feet two at a time.

If heel/toe is cheating than so are doubles and press rolls.

This right here is what the kids wanna learn:


Teachers take note. Your students want to do stuff you cant. They go to the internet and you scoff at them for it. Think about this for a second.
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Whoa man, you need to chill a little. Teaching drums is rewarding, but is is also very mentally and emotionally consuming. I have been teaching for over ten years, and if a potential or current student wanted to learn something that I couldn't do/teach, I would straight up tell them to find a different teacher who could help them. There is no ego involved, nor am I "jealous" that a kid can play double bass faster than I can. Double bass is certainly not my forte, and I'll admit to that in second. If I don't have the chops or know how, I don't bother wasting their (or my) time. I don't scoff at anyone for going to the internet (or another teacher) to learn something. I encourage it.

Please take it easy on teachers. We sacrifice a lot. And if someone wants to throw out the old "If you can't play, you teach" line, I am gigging 5-8 times per month, so there are some of us that can do both well.
 
vyacheslav said:
Please take it easy on teachers. We sacrifice a lot. And if someone wants to throw out the old "If you can't play, you teach" line, I am gigging 5-8 times per month, so there are some of us that can do both well.
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I would never say that. I cant teach, nor do I want to.

That being said, this thread was started by a teacher. The initial tone was a bit derogatory towards new drummers having a nice double pedal. It wont help them sound better. The problem is not with the kid, or the pedal, or me pointing it out. The problem is that the teacher is not interested in what the kid wants, rather what they think the kid needs.

The student pays the teacher. The teacher needs to remember that.
 
It’s akin to an old 60+ jazzer (plot already secured for the big gig) buying an Old K ride that costs a couple thousands of dollars.

As @Neal Peart alluded to, you’d want the best tools possible for the players requirements - I guess if it’s a 7 year old looking at these pedals they either have keen interest or maybe not, a teenager perusing these pedals shouldn’t be a shocker.

For doubles I got into the game when I got a 5000 back in ‘03, hated it and traded for the Iron Cobras which were less bulky on the beaters.

My Demonator pedal was little more than half the cost of my Pearl Sessions when they costed me $1599, so I don’t know if there’s a golden ratio or supposed to be? 🤷🏽‍♂️
 
C. Dave Run said:
I would never say that. I cant teach, nor do I want to.

That being said, this thread was started by a teacher. The initial tone was a bit derogatory towards new drummers having a nice double pedal. It wont help them sound better. The problem is not with the kid, or the pedal, or me pointing it out. The problem is that the teacher is not interested in what the kid wants, rather what they think the kid needs.

The student pays the teacher. The teacher needs to remember that.
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My experience ... (I went to see a drum teacher when I have already been playing for over 10 years) he wanted to me to learn very basic patterns and basically "build me up from there", The reality was he wanted to milk the lessons so that I had to pay him more for a longer time. Not saying that all teachers are like that, but when a student is clearly not a beginner, why try to force beginner lessons? I don't think I am better than anyone, but at that point I had been the drummer for over 10 bands none of which complained about my ability to play what they needed so clearly not a beginner. Even a teacher can learn something from a beginner (i'm not a teacher but I remember watching this very new drummer drum and he was all over the place time wise, but then he did this weird roll, that just sounded great, which I'm sure he couldn't repeat, but I had to use that for my playing it was that good, and the kid could not play to save his life).
If any trends need to end is the general dismissal of all things metal (it takes a lot of talent to play some of those tracks). The fact that music evolves and Blues and Jazz are no longer as important as they once were, and that the bands from the 60s/70s are now dinosaurs with over 5 or 6 decades of newer music after them. All the innovation and techniques and gear that has spanned since then and people refuse to let go of the old??
Why do you think we see all this kids with incredible talent? (6 y/o playing Rush, or band like Poliphia with virtuosic guitar playing by very young guys as well?) We see that because now it is a lot more accessible to see your favorite players, to see a tutorial on how to play a complex part, to take lessons without having to leave your house, and to record professional sounding tracks with very little. If anything those kids should be encouraged even though it may seem that they are spending their money in things their teacher thinks they don't need. (with my first drumset, my pedal was the weakest point, the drums were ok, the cymbals were fine, but that pedal was shit, I would've been much better off with a properly made pedal but there were not many choices where I lived and I didn't have a lot of money ... My money would be spent in this order:
1 medium to top of the line pedal
2 medium to top of the line snare
3 medium to top of the line cymbals
4 cheap to medium quality drums
Toms are not played as much and a cheap drum kit can be made to sound good. a shitty snare is going to be a shitty snare no matter what you do, same with a pedal. cymbals are subjective but generally medium quality from the leading brands will sound very good. (maybe able to find cheaper cymbals in Turkey that are better than most...)
 
doggyd69b said:
Why do you think we see all this kids with incredible talent? (6 y/o playing Rush, or band like Poliphia with virtuosic guitar playing by very young guys as well?) We see that because now it is a lot more accessible to see your favorite players, to see a tutorial on how to play a complex part, to take lessons without having to leave your house, and to record professional sounding tracks with very little
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On top of that:

Metal is not new. I was playing death metal before my kid was born. People my parents age were playing it a decade before me when it started. People my kids age are now playing even more extreme music because they have folks like me as parents. Cannibal Corpse is my kids classic rock. And on top of it all, my kids generation is now having kids. Infant Annihilator will be their classic rock. I cant imagine the music they are gonna play.
 
C. Dave Run said:
His kick is probably triggered. He is doing heel/toe with his feet. It's just like doubles with your hands, only using your feet.

After a certain speed, a kick drum sounds like mud. The trigger solves this issue. That's all it does. The kid is still playing each note with his feet two at a time.

If heel/toe is cheating than so are doubles and press rolls.

This right here is what the kids wanna learn:


Teachers take note. Your students want to do stuff you cant. They go to the internet and you scoff at them for it. Think about this for a second.
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I see what you are saying, thx! I think it was the angle of the camera where I couldn't se the beater top otherwise it looks like halftime playing; the windup of for the doubles just seemed much smaller than the singles yet sound the same volume so I suppose that is the added benifit of clarity for faster playing. I recall the Vinnie Paul trick where he would tape a silver dollar to the head and hit with a wood beater and I think he only used the triggers for live playing purposes. Strangely, his signature triggers just came out last year but no say if he had any hand before his death. Personally, I don't have trigger experience but I've played enough e-drums to hear strokes are just differently applied but can't tell if the same experience with trigger. If it's like Gene and Vinnie where they blending a good amount acoustic with the trigger, it sounds beefy and more natural with that wood beater power clarity to my ear....Vinnie P would always talk about the power in the strokes for the sound he wanted. I wouldn't call this a cheat though w/ the trigger, it's just a tool requirement to play the genre, especially now with these insane tempos...can't even play without it now. Now heel/toe and swivel, I'm out of the loop with my double pedal playing, lol.
 
C. Dave Run said:
Teachers take note. Your students want to do stuff you cant. They go to the internet and you scoff at them for it. Think about this for a second.
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yep...that is why you will find me behind my kit on the weekends, practicing double bass! And marimba, and jazz, and second line grooves, and drum corps hybrid rudiments

I know I will never be as fast as many of my students, but I will have a working knowledge of how to get them in the boat and into the water by themselves
 
A good teacher will want to tailor the lessons towards the students wants/needs. This make sense, because if the student is focusing on what they want, they will be more enthusiastic, practice longer and keep up with lessons and show a general enthusiasm for it. I always resented some of my teachers from my youth, having me do things I wasn't really interested in.

Anytime I have a new student, I always ask them (or their parents) what they want to work on or need help with and I tailor the lessons around that. If it's something beyond my scope or expertise, I tell them that straight up. No point in wasting anyone's money or time.
 
Tracii said:
Priorities. If they are happy (for the time being) with their sound and want to get their double bass drumming up, then what's the point steering them towards better cymbals and drums? I'm sure they don't mind having better sounding kits, but that's not what they are looking for right now.

When I go out buying premium meat, I'm not listening to comments on my sub-par frying pans. 😘😇
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This.

I don't see why this is puzzling.

If one's desire is to be a great double bass drum player, why would one buy good cymbals first and a double pedal later? What purpose would that serve?
 
Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:
I know I will never be as fast as many of my students, but I will have a working knowledge of how to get them in the boat and into the water by themselves
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This is for sure the important part. I dont think a student cares if you can do something perfect. They just want to know how to do it, and you to show them.

Everything I've ever taught somebody, drumming or not, always starts with someone saying "how do you do this"?
 
I'm not young, nor do I play metal (or any other music that really utilizes double pedals) but I can certainly understand the mentality. That really fast, thrash stuff seems to be far more reliant on that relentless double bass, moreso than the rest of the kit, especially the cymbals, so why not prioritize that when they're getting their gear?

I have double pedals (some pearl model that I picked up second hand from a friend) and I can't play them worth a darn. The only reason I even bother with them is to play rolls at the end of a song. (Which I barely accomplish.) I'm constantly amazed by people who can keep both pedals going at a fast pace, AND play the rest of the kit well, too. Did I say that I'm old? :)
 
As someone who studied with a couple of notable high profile, possibly legendary teachers, I just want to add that the dynamic is usually different. They know that you've made a choice to come to them because of their history and status in the Drum community with previous students, and how those students have applied those lessons.

I am nowhere even in the same solar system as some of the teachers I've studied with, but I've adopted that method of ...." this is what I do, this is how I work on things, this is the focus. If you want something else, you should definitely go to someone else "

It saves everybody a lot of time. I also don't take beginners anymore because really, who needs that headache ? Unless you need the money. I want to add that I was adjunct at a state university for four or five years, and I would get those calls because I was the guy that people called for the eight-year-old. I respect you guys who do it, but it's just not my thing at all.
 
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