Poll: Double stroke BPM goal

What is a "fast" BPM for 16th note open doubles?

  • 160

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • 180

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 200

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • 220+

    Votes: 9 52.9%

  • Total voters
    17

Mastiff

Senior Member
What do you consider "fast" for an open double stroke roll? I'm not asking what you can do, but what do you see as a reasonable target tempo where "you've got this"? I'm asking for the BPM for 16th note doubles, reasonably sustained, like 8 or more measures. I said "open" to rule out buzz or press rolls.
 
I know you didnt ask, but I think its relevant. I just tried cold, and can barely keep it together at 180, but can sustain this for a reasonable amount of time. So because of this, currently 180 is fast.

Is it fast enough? No. Is any of it ever fast enough? No.

When I can start a stick fire, its fast enough.
 
Something to consider is the purpose of doing a drum roll is to create a sustained sound on a drum. So iif you are trying create something musical, it s not really the speed you can do it at but the quality of the sound you produce. Keeping this in mind I would practice your rolls on a real snare drum, not a drum pad if at all possible. Also, when you get to the limit of your double strokes, you can convert the doubles to buzzes, and move your sticks to the outside of the drum while trying to keep the sound smooth and even Then try to reverse the process and end with slow double strokes.
 
Not much music calls for 160 plus bpm.

Fastest I played was Scythian Suite@152.
 
I'm asking for the BPM for 16th note doubles,
I understand you mean: Playing Open Double Stroke Roll in Sixteenths at QUARTER = 200 bpm, right?

I would say it could start to be fast at 250 bpm, at 200 it´s definetely not fast.
 
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What do you consider "fast" for an open double stroke roll? I'm not asking what you can do, but what do you see as a reasonable target tempo where "you've got this"? I'm asking for the BPM for 16th note doubles, reasonably sustained, like 8 or more measures. I said "open" to rule out buzz or press rolls.
“BPM for sixteenth note doubles”…? Are you asking about EACH sixteenth note played as a double (so you’re playing 32nd notes: 1 e & a = RRLLRRLL)? If so, then the tempos you have listed are VERY fast. I peak out at double strokes around 145-150, and that speed relies HEAVILY on push-pull technique—and by that point, the notes are played much faster than buzz stroke speed!

If you are referring to playing sixteenth notes AS double strokes (1 e & a = R R L L), then that seems a much more reasonable question. I wouldn’t be concerned so much with “is this considered a fast speed,” but I would ask myself “do I have a need to do them this quickly?” 160 is fast for some, and 220 is a walk in the park for others.
 
I understand you mean: Playing Open Double Stroke Roll in Sixteenths at QUARTER = 200 bpm, righ?

I would say it could start to be fast at 250 bpm, at 200 it´s definetely not fast.
Exactly, 16ths at 280 for doubles is fast. No buzzing.
Most players would be doing 32nd notes at 120-140 actually, but it’s the same note rate.
 
Well I guess I have the answer. ;)


Not sure they are "open" and the pad sounds like a rock, but...

Seriously though, I'm not seeing anyone outside of parlor trick guys talking about more than 200 bpm. Maybe I just don't know what to look for.
 
Well I guess I have the answer. ;)


Not sure they are "open" and the pad sounds like a rock, but...

Seriously though, I'm not seeing anyone outside of parlor trick guys talking about more than 200 bpm. Maybe I just don't know what to look for.
There's plenty of jazz & metal songs that go way over 200bpm
 
yeah, this is kind of confusing to interpret. If I am to interpret the question literally, as in the doubles themselves are 16th notes, then yeah, 200 bpm really isn't fast at all. I was doing sustained open rolls in marching band when I was 15 at 180 bpm, and they weren't physically difficult to play even way back then. I start to cramp up when I get to like 250 bpm.
 
I intended RRLL = 1e&a.

Isn't marching snare a different animal from rolls on a drumset? I never did drum line or anything, but I always thought the snares were super tight, sticks like logs and a lot of the rolls more like buzz or press than drumset style open rolls.

Igoe's great hands video and practice routine shows 180+ for "advanced", but you guys make it seem like a child should be able to do that after a few weeks of practice. I'd be curious to see a video of someone doing 280 "open" style, slow mo' even better.
 
Marching snares do have tighter heads and heavier sticks so there is more rebound, yes. However, fast double strokes are definitely doable on drum set snares. The main difference is going to be in the tone......fast double strokes on a drumset snare can sound like a bit of a blur, whereas they will be ultra-articulate on a marching snare.

In regards to Igoe's Lifetime Warmup, as a longtime fan of it, to me the "Beginner-Intermediate-Advanced" comes more from the actual rudiments themselves. The double strokes is just the glue that links each exercise with each other. Kinda of like a steady-state, easy, laid back thing. So yeah, for the "Advanced" version, think of the double strokes in between each rudiment as just easy, carefree, relaxed drumming. For someone who is on the "Beginner" one, they probably can play the double strokes at 180, but to them it'd be more of something of effort, rather than something easy and relaxing. Does that make sense?
 
Igoe's great hands video and practice routine shows 180+ for "advanced", but you guys make it seem like a child should be able to do that after a few weeks of practice. I'd be curious to see a video of someone doing 280 "open" style, slow mo' even better.
This. I feel where Mastiff is coming from. I think the issue lies in how we are defining the OP question👇
what do you see as a reasonable target tempo where "you've got this"?
I think most cats get what you mean by "you've got this". But you can "have it", musically speaking at a number of different tempos. To wit, the following reasonable replies:
So iif you are trying create something musical, it s not really the speed you can do it at but the quality of the sound you produce.
Not much music calls for 160 plus bpm.

Fastest I played was Scythian Suite@152.
+2

a reasonable target tempo where "you've got this"? I'm asking for the BPM for 16th note doubles, reasonably sustained, like 8 or more measures.
Once you add this detail you will get honest replies from the academic side, saying simply that "fast" is defined as whatever the fastest players can do. Saying that anything under 250 is "slow", or at least "slow-ish" sounds reasonable and unreasonable at the same time. It's slowish maybe because there are many players who can play and sustain those speeds. But it's also irrelevant if you find yourself playing music of a more moderate tempo, and your double strokes sound beautiful within that tempo.

Seriously though, I'm not seeing anyone outside of parlor trick guys talking about more than 200 bpm. Maybe I just don't know what to look for.
This. And there may be plenty of musical 200+ bpm kit playing examples out there. But the fact that the niche of 'trick drumming' even exists means that a drumkit player has to be careful when they start comparing their own rudimental progress to cats who have way different goals. Snare drum virtuosity for kit playing is in some ways approached very differently than virtuosity for drumline and trick drumming.

I don't know if it needs to be stated, but most beautiful drumset playing occurs at whatever tempo the music occurs. Practice the tempos you want to sound good playing in. You can play masterfully within the 90 - 160 bpm song range without ever being able to "bury a metronome at 30", or play all the rudiments faster than most metronomes can even click. My Tama maxes out at pulse=250, interestingly.
 
Well I guess I have the answer. ;)


Not sure they are "open" and the pad sounds like a rock, but...
Yeah, this guy isn’t doing double strokes at the upper speeds, but double bounces. The fastest speed it looks like he *might* be doing double strokes is 200 (I can’t see if he’s using his fingers to do the second stroke, or if the opening of his hands is just a reaction to the stick bouncing). After that, he is just clamping down his grip and pressing the stick into the head, causing it to bounce.

I’ve worked with a few drumlines, and some of them, unfortunately, are teaching kids to bounce their double strokes, and they sound perpetually sloppy/uneven. I understand that the instructors are trying to get the kids up to speed quickly, but they’re doing a huge disservice to them.
 
Mmmm I've never heard the phrase "double bounce" to describe a double stroke roll with uneven second notes. Its all double stroke rolls. Yes, in marching band/drum corps you want to try sticking each note individually to keep them as even as possible, and one should always practice bringing that second note up, but practically speaking on a drumset if you're playing double stroke rolls they're never "true" double strokes by your definition. Its just not something that's really done.
 
Well, it’s more like “stroke and a subsequent bounce.” It’s not a double stroke roll. If you swing the stick, and have it strike the surface twice (stroke and the following bounce), the second note will be quieter than the first, and therefore uneven. It will sound like RrLlRrLl rather than RRLLRRLL. How does one “bring up” the second note without adding more velocity to it? That’s where the wrist comes in at slower speeds, and the fingers take over at higher speeds. Same with triple stroke rolls—bouncing the sticks will sound like RrrLllRrrLll rather than RRRLLLRRRLLL. You have to stroke each note to get it to sound even.

People use “true” double strokes and triple strokes around the kit all the time. You can’t “press roll” double strokes on a floor tom tuned JAW—you HAVE to use actual double strokes!
 
Heh. It makes sense, but I've been working hard on my doubles for a few years and 180 is my top end for sustained. Oh well. ;)
Eh, dont sweat it. I can follow the parlor trick kid to 300 but then why? The openness falls apart around 180, but I don't try to push doubles, rather singles for me. When I practice doubles, its more about switching between note values and keeping it even while doing so, not how fast I can do them.

It was fun to see where I fall apart.

Another thing to consider is time. @Alex Sanguinetti has been playing way longer than I have been alive, so it makes sense that his idea of fast is higher than mine. My current top speed was his top speed a long time ago.

Speed is fun to chase. Dont worry about it though. I've not once ever had to do a 180bpm open handed double stroke roll.

My paradiddles are slow too. Even after 30 years, they still just havent clicked. But they are faster than the new guys paradiddles.
 
I called 200 the beginning of fast, but I'm not confident that I know how to count.
 
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