Tension in groin area when playing bass drum

[yeokay]

Hey so I've been working on my bass drum speed, which is definitely a weak area of mine (I've been playing around 10/11 years).

When it comes to hammering out constant eights for example, I've realised I need to get less leg motion and more of a pivot on the heel. My problem is, when I lift my heel and then play constant notes, I very quickly fatigue in my upper leg area, specifically where the leg meets the hips.
I don't know if I'm tensing up in that area too much, or it's a case of the muscle just being weak. But it's the weight of lifting my heel up, feels like I'm now supporting my entire leg's weight on just that groin area in order to hold my heel up from the pedal.

This has been something I have noticed and had issue with for YEARS so I'm not really sure if it's a case of the muscle being built up as I'd assume that would have happened by now.

I'm not sure if it's a technique issue or a stamina issue

Any ideas? cheers!

 

[MrInsanePolack]

Check your seat height. If you sit too low, knees, hips, and lower back can be effected negatively. As basic rule of thumb, you really dont want to sit so low your hips are lower than your knees. Sitting low means the entire weight of your leg is being lifted by the muscles around the hip. The faster you try to do it, the more you are gonna feel it.

 

[ineedaclutch]

The following is not a medical diagnosis or intended to be used as treatment:

First, check with your doctor.
You can look at the hip flexor group and get a general idea of where the pain is coming from.

 

[Push pull stroke]

Play the first 4 exercises from Stick Control with the feet, very, very slowly. Like 8th note equals 60. Do this for 10 minutes every day before any other warmups. This solves any foot technique issues that crop up for me.

 

[C.M. Jones]

This is a matter to be taken up with a physician or a physical therapist. Yes, technique may be a factor, but it's possible that drumming is simply a trigger for your discomfort. Its cause may stem from some other source, such as natural degeneration with age and so on. You'll more readily get to the bottom of things by consulting a physiological expert.

 

[yeokay]

This is a matter to be taken up with a physician or a physical therapist. Yes, technique may be a factor, but it's possible that drumming is simply a trigger for your discomfort. Its cause may stem from some other source, such as natural degeneration with age and so on. You'll more readily get to the bottom of things by consulting a physiological expert.

Hmm thanks. Are you sure though? Isn't something like feeling tiredness/aching normal when practising something that is challenging? Is it not likely a technique issue or simply a muscle imbalance?

I'm only 22 so I'd hope not a degeneration thing

 

[C.M. Jones]

Are you sure though?

I'm only 22 so I'd hope not a degeneration thing

I'm absolutely not sure. That's why I recommend seeking the guidance of a physical expert.

I'm forty-eight now, but when I was twenty-two, I could play endlessly without the slightest soreness. Technique might be the primary cause of your woes. There's just no way to confirm that speculation in an online forum. You might employ an instructor who can observe and modify your tactics.

 

[MrInsanePolack]

Hmm thanks. Are you sure though? Isn't something like feeling tiredness/aching normal when practising something that is challenging? Is it not likely a technique issue or simply a muscle imbalance?

I'm only 22 so I'd hope not a degeneration thing

We aren't doctors. Anything we tell you as far as pain goes is only going to be experience talking. Ergonomics and technique absolutely play a role in playing longevity. But so does your health. You might have some underlying issue you (and therefore we) dont know about. Getting checked out doesnt hurt.

Age doesnt matter either. My kid is 21 and potentially has rheumatoid arthritis. Still trying to get it sorted, but surely you get the point.

 

[Alain Rieder]

It's probably because you're playing with your whole leg instead of your ankle.
Work on relaxation rather than speed, and your speed will increase.

 

[Yamaha Rider]

Hmm thanks. Are you sure though? Isn't something like feeling tiredness/aching normal when practising something that is challenging? Is it not likely a technique issue or simply a muscle imbalance?

I'm only 22 so I'd hope not a degeneration thing

Oh dear. Sorry son, after 20 you're in physical freefall to senility. By 25 it's all over. No-one on this site is over 21. Fact.

 

[JohnnyG]

Dial 1-800- not-adoc. Maybe a pinched nerve. Call your doctor, then go wash your hands.

 

[rhumbagirl]

Check your seat height. If you sit too low, knees, hips, and lower back can be effected negatively. As basic rule of thumb, you really dont want to sit so low your hips are lower than your knees. Sitting low means the entire weight of your leg is being lifted by the muscles around the hip. The faster you try to do it, the more you are gonna feel it.

I was going to say the same thing. I would add that sitting low results in less of an offset your upper body offers your lower body (upper and lower w.r.t. the drum throne), so there's a little more effort going in to keeping balance on the throne while you're playing. This is in addition to the hip muscle strain mentioned by Mr Insane above.

 

[brentcn]

You say that you feel the muscle fatiguing, so it’s probably just a lack of strength, and not something more serious. You’re young, and you’ve never trained for speed or endurance before, so my first thoughts are: 1) seat height, and 2) posture. Raise your seat, and sit upright. And it’s okay to feel your muscles fatigue and run out of oxygen; that’s how you build strength. But, you should not have sharp pains, shooting, pinching, or numbness.

Drumming is athletic, so you should treat it that way. Stretch your groin, as well as your legs, ankles, wrists and fingers. Drink a bit of water. Take breaks. And realize that, although you can play lots of things already, crap technique is probably going to cause injury down the road, and prevent you from becoming faster, stronger, and more coordinated.

 

[yeokay]

It's probably because you're playing with your whole leg instead of your ankle.
Work on relaxation rather than speed, and your speed will increase.

Honestly it feels this way to me, I just really find it hard to isolate just the ankle and get it to do that pivot motion while keeping the leg relaxed. There's always a contraction/flexing I can feel in my upper leg muscle including near the hip. I guess it's a practice thing, and probably going slow and relaxed rather than trying fast and tensing.

The issue is that when playing slow, it's really more natural to just use the whole leg since the smaller ankle motion isn't really needed at those slow tempos.

The funny thing is the problem of pain in the groin area completely disappears once my heel is touching the pedal and I try heel down. I also feel much more of my shin muscle working as I'm able to get the ankle pivot, which I don't seem to be able to achieve the moment I raise the heel off the pedal even slightly.

I was going to say the same thing. I would add that sitting low results in less of an offset your upper body offers your lower body (upper and lower w.r.t. the drum throne), so there's a little more effort going in to keeping balance on the throne while you're playing. This is in addition to the hip muscle strain mentioned by Mr Insane above.

I thought this might be an issue too. Thing is I have tried raising my height gradually up until the point where it is actually impractically high for the rest of my playing as I'm borderline standing up - still have the issue of a tensed up thigh area.

You say that you feel the muscle fatiguing, so it’s probably just a lack of strength, and not something more serious. You’re young, and you’ve never trained for speed or endurance before, so my first thoughts are: 1) seat height, and 2) posture. Raise your seat, and sit upright. And it’s okay to feel your muscles fatigue and run out of oxygen; that’s how you build strength. But, you should not have sharp pains, shooting, pinching, or numbness.

Drumming is athletic, so you should treat it that way. Stretch your groin, as well as your legs, ankles, wrists and fingers. Drink a bit of water. Take breaks. And realize that, although you can play lots of things already, crap technique is probably going to cause injury down the road, and prevent you from becoming faster, stronger, and more coordinated.

I think it is, I hope so anyway that I just need to keep practising. I tried again today, I tried different stool positions and leg angles (as in rotating parallel with the ground) . I've noticed the issue disappears when playing heel down, and I find it much easier to isolate the ankle then (which makes sense I suppose). I feel I'm actually USING my shin muscle and getting the pivot of the ankle. For some reason, as soon as I raise my heel off the pedal I can't make use of those shin muscles, instead my upper leg just locks up.

 

[MrInsanePolack]

The funny thing is the problem of pain in the groin area completely disappears once my heel is touching the pedal and I try heel down.

Where is your ankle in relation to your knee? I'm gonna take a guess and say your ankles are too far out in front for heel up. Heel up is easier with your ankle directly under your knee. Heel down is easier with your ankle in front of your knee.

Heel up:
If your ankle is in front of your knee, lifting your heel with your toes becomes more difficult. It also puts more stress on your hip joint. Try this. Sit in a chair. Stick your leg out straight and lift it. It's all hip doing the work. Now put your ankle under your knee and lift. You push down with your toes (like doing a calf raise) as you lift your thigh. Much easier. This is how heel up works. You can't really push down with the toes if the foot is too far out front, this makes you lift your leg more. Without pictures, and what you describe, this sounds like the problem to me.

Heel down:
Put your ankles under your knees and lift your toes. You will feel tightness in your shin and ankle. Now push your ankles in front of your knees and lift your toes. The tightness should be gone and your foot move more naturally. Your heel becomes the fulcrum for your foot to press the pedal. This is how heel down works.

Exact locations will vary from person to person as we are all different. But structurally we all work the same, so the same principles apply. You just have to find your spot, we cant tell you that.

 

[brentcn]

For some reason, as soon as I raise my heel off the pedal I can't make use of those shin muscles, instead my upper leg just locks up.

Well, don’t allow your leg to “lock up”. Slow down, relax, and find a tempo where you can get your ankle moving while your heel is up. Probably you’re striving for too much speed before your muscles have acclimated.

It’s a good idea to practice heel-down, even if you don’t intend to play that way. The little muscles in and around your ankle need strength and agility.

Are you using any system-based exercises like the Fat-Back pages in Time Functioning Patterns (Chaffee)? You really should be doing those if you want to build speed, agility, and coordination. Just doing straight 8ths for two minutes is okay, but you should do a wide variety of combinations, too.

 

[Alain Rieder]

Are you using any system-based exercises like the Fat-Back pages in Time Functioning Patterns (Chaffee)?

A good alternative to Chaffee's book would be the first and second sections of my own Time Manipulation Drum Book which exists in print and ebook versions. I was fully aware of Chaffee's system when I wrote mine, and it can be seen as another take on a similar subject.

If you work on my book at a slow tempo, between 40 and 60, it will help you build what's needed to play in a relaxed manner.
1. The first section of my book deals with all the basic rhythmic figures.
2. In the second section they are assembled in a unique and very musical way.

 

[rhumbagirl]

I thought this might be an issue too. Thing is I have tried raising my height gradually up until the point where it is actually impractically high for the rest of my playing as I'm borderline standing up - still have the issue of a tensed up thigh area.

If you are still experiencing pain after raising your seat height, or trying anything and everything already said, then you should take a rest from playing drumset for a few days. Then retry the suggestions.

 

[yeokay]

Where is your ankle in relation to your knee? I'm gonna take a guess and say your ankles are too far out in front for heel up. Heel up is easier with your ankle directly under your knee. Heel down is easier with your ankle in front of your knee.

Heel up:
If your ankle is in front of your knee, lifting your heel with your toes becomes more difficult. It also puts more stress on your hip joint. Try this. Sit in a chair. Stick your leg out straight and lift it. It's all hip doing the work. Now put your ankle under your knee and lift. You push down with your toes (like doing a calf raise) as you lift your thigh. Much easier. This is how heel up works. You can't really push down with the toes if the foot is too far out front, this makes you lift your leg more. Without pictures, and what you describe, this sounds like the problem to me.

Heel down:
Put your ankles under your knees and lift your toes. You will feel tightness in your shin and ankle. Now push your ankles in front of your knees and lift your toes. The tightness should be gone and your foot move more naturally. Your heel becomes the fulcrum for your foot to press the pedal. This is how heel down works.

Exact locations will vary from person to person as we are all different. But structurally we all work the same, so the same principles apply. You just have to find your spot, we cant tell you that.

You know what I think you might be right! The thing is I always had issue with this and reseraching about correct sitting technique, I always remember seeing vids/explanations starting that you should have a larger than 90 degree angle (as in your ankle would be further out than knee). So I always assumed that part of my posture was correct.


Whenever trying to solve the problem in fact I'd try putting my stool further and further away from the kit but it never helped. I will try sitting closer next time, thanks so much, great idea.

Well, don’t allow your leg to “lock up”. Slow down, relax, and find a tempo where you can get your ankle moving while your heel is up. Probably you’re striving for too much speed before your muscles have acclimated.

It’s a good idea to practice heel-down, even if you don’t intend to play that way. The little muscles in and around your ankle need strength and agility.

Are you using any system-based exercises like the Fat-Back pages in Time Functioning Patterns (Chaffee)? You really should be doing those if you want to build speed, agility, and coordination. Just doing straight 8ths for two minutes is okay, but you should do a wide variety of combinations, too.

Yeah, I will try doing some heel down as well. Maybe it makes it easier to isolate and strengthen the muscle so I can more easily activate it when heel up. Right now for whatever reason it's really hard to "feel" the right thing when I play heel up.

I'm following the Matt Garstka bass drum lessons. It starts off with straight 8th on down beats, then 8th up beats. Then triplet bass drums (i.e. bonham style), then triplets shifted over by one (hitting the downbeat). Haven't gone beyond there because it gets trickier, but there's a load of different permutations, and beats/exercises with different bass drum patterns so I'm pretty sure it should be good

Another thing I've noticed: when I see demonstrations of heel up playing (i.e. by matt garstka), particularly when doing doubles, they seem to have so much flexibility and looseness in their ankle, it's extremely fluid, and they also don't actually seem to raise their heel very much on the initial "tap" first beat of the double. For me, it seems a much more rigid up and then flattening of the foot for the second strike of the double. I'm not sure why I have to raise my heel so high to achieve that first hit, and it's a very jerky motion very much set up or down without the nice smoothness I see in others. Perhaps I'm trying to raise my heel way too high...

 

[brentcn]

Agreed that your ankle should be underneath your knee. Your shin should be vertical. Most usually make the mistake of sitting too close to the snare, but maybe you have the opposite problem.

I'm following the Matt Garstka bass drum lessons. It starts off with straight 8th on down beats, then 8th up beats. Then triplet bass drums (i.e. bonham style), then triplets shifted over by one (hitting the downbeat). Haven't gone beyond there because it gets trickier, but there's a load of different permutations, and beats/exercises with different bass drum patterns so I'm pretty sure it should be good

And while the bass drum is playing all of these exercises, what are you hands doing? Nothing? Playing in unison along with the bass drum in some way?

Here's the first page (there are seven pages total) of the Chaffee Fat-Back exercises, except I've added in the 8th notes on the hi-hat, because this is how most of my students start out.



1. Become able to play all the exercises 4 times in a row, then move onto the next, without stopping. Some will be more difficult than others.
2. Become able to switch from one exercise to another random exercise. Make up combinations. The tempo is not 120; it's wherever you need it to be.
3. Improvise freely using these combinations.
4. Again, there are six more pages of combinations. It's pretty extensive.

Chaffee is most likely the most highly regarded drum set educator ever. Even today, his materials are part of the curriculum at Berklee, since he headed up their percussion department back in the 1970s. Highly recommend Time Functioning Patterns.

And here's a page I give to students who are trying to develop bass drum doubles. And again, the tempo is not 70; it's whatever you need it to be.