Planning my Sound-Proof Room

[zambizzi]

I did some searching on this and found a lot of dead-ends.

I'm going to start building a room-within-a-room in the next few weeks and here's my list of criteria & notes so far:

1. Must be portable - we rent our house so the room has to break-down and move with us when we move.

2. In the basement - it won't need a floor since the basement has a carpeted concrete floor.

3. Must contain the sound enough to practice at night, bedrooms are above the basement drum-room.

4. Must have some sort of ventilation...even if it's crude. I don't want to pass out after an hour due to a lack of oxygen.

I'm tired of my Roland TD-3 kit for night-time practice, it just doesn't cut it and I'm not willing to spend thousands on another higher-end Roland e-kit. I could get much more practice on an acoustic this way while also freeing up more family time after work, during weekdays.

I've already experimented a little w/ soundproofing. My father-in-law and I built 2 large doors to cover the basement doorway opening. They're about 2" thick and contain 2 layers of "sound board", which you can get at Home Depot for about $10 per 8'x7' sheet. The outside of the doors is a 1/8" thick cheap, laminated pressboard cover to make it more attractive. When those doors are up, they can hear very little of my drumming and band practice upstairs, thanks to the fact that we're in the basement and it's an older house - so the walls are fairly thick.

I figure I could take a similar approach (2 layers of sound board within the walls.) I would also need to use some sort of sound-absorbing material on the inside to prevent really horrific sound inside of the room...I'm thinking some sort of acoustic foam. I could use braces w/ nuts & bolts to hold the walls together, allowing me to break it down and move it, should we ever relocate.

Anyone else have tips, pointers, comments, etc.?

[Deathmetalconga]

Sounds like you know what you're doing. As for ventilation, any sorts of windows and doors are going to let sound out, so it will tend to be stuffy. I would invest in the largest ceiling fan you can get and that will help quite a bit.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

Sounds like you know what you're doing. As for ventilation, any sorts of windows and doors are going to let sound out, so it will tend to be stuffy. I would invest in the largest ceiling fan you can get and that will help quite a bit.

I can pretend anyways! The doors we made worked well but I'm not sure how much of that will apply to the RWAR concept.

Yeah, that's my biggest concern - ventilation. It won't do me much good to practice if my brain becomes oxygen deprived. Obviously, bad ventilation would mean less energy for playing, as well.

Wouldn't a hole w/ a fan leak sound?

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

I take it your basement is underground, with no neighbors? Does your basement already have ventilation? It probably wouldn't be hard to create a drop ceiling, and maybe lay some real dense insulation on top of those ceiling squares you see in businesses. This would sort of create a room within a room, but since your room only has one shared wall, the ceiling, maybe it would work. It would be easy to take down as well. An old boss of mine used special dense insulation when building his bedroom to prevent his loud stereo music from annoying his parents, and that is what I am thinking of for the insulation.

Also, if there are just bathrooms above the basement, perhaps you could replace the bathroom doors with solid wood doors if they are currently hollow or foam core doors. The solid doors would help keep in any sound that made it up into the bathroom.

[nebula821]

I would kill for a basement, unfortunately they're not too common in Louisiana. Let me know what you end up doing exactly because I might get some ideas. I currently have a "music room", but it's not soundproofed at all. I just shut the door when I play and my wife is really cool (tolerant) about it.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

Originally Posted by nebula821

I would kill for a basement, unfortunately they're not too common in Louisiana. Let me know what you end up doing exactly because I might get some ideas. I currently have a "music room", but it's not soundproofed at all. I just shut the door when I play and my wife is really cool (tolerant) about it.

Hah... In Louisiana we call a basement an indoor pool.

[Ironcobra]

you will really have to double or triple layer your material on the roof. when I play the drums, the bedrooms above just shake away. If you plan on playing while people are sleeping you might need some seriously heavy duty sound absorbsion.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

I take it your basement is underground, with no neighbors? Does your basement already have ventilation? It probably wouldn't be hard to create a drop ceiling, and maybe lay some real dense insulation on top of those ceiling squares you see in businesses. This would sort of create a room within a room, but since your room only has one shared wall, the ceiling, maybe it would work. It would be easy to take down as well. An old boss of mine used special dense insulation when building his bedroom to prevent his loud stereo music from annoying his parents, and that is what I am thinking of for the insulation.

Also, if there are just bathrooms above the basement, perhaps you could replace the bathroom doors with solid wood doors if they are currently hollow or foam core doors. The solid doors would help keep in any sound that made it up into the bathroom.

We live in one of those very common 70's era homes, a tri-story. The basement is half-sunken into the ground and the bedrooms are above it. The rest of the house is a single-story.

We have neighbors but as it is; they can't hear my drumming without soundproofing! We picked this house because of the basement and the fact that the yards are very big...so the neighbors are far enough away not to notice. You basically have to stand in front of the house to hear any drumming and it's very faint, at that.

These are good ideas but I'm not sure I want to do anything to actually alter the house (or sink any money into it.) It's a lease, we don't own it, and we'll only be here another year if the owner succeeds in selling it.

Two of the bedrooms (ours and the kids, who share one) are above the drum room. I'm mostly just concerned about the sound not escaping upwards, which would require a super-thick ceiling on my "drum tomb" - like ironcobra pointed out.

Ha! In Idaho we call a basement a cave - they're not very common here either. There is so much lava rock (and other types of rock) that many basements had to be carved out with dynamite.

[nebula821]

I actually lived in one of those types of houses in Idaho. He's not lying about the rocky soil either!

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Ha! In Idaho we call a basement a cave - they're not very common here either. There is so much lava rock (and other types of rock) that many basements had to be carved out with dynamite.

What part of town you live in? I used to live on the Bench and we moved to Hidden Springs a couple of months ago. In my new home, the music room is above the garage. The house is fairly large and if you close enough doors, my wife says it's quite tolerable.

Actually, basements are fairly common here with older homes. Sounds like you live in a split-level home, popular in the 70s and 80s.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

What part of town you live in? I used to live on the Bench and we moved to Hidden Springs a couple of months ago. In my new home, the music room is above the garage. The house is fairly large and if you close enough doors, my wife says it's quite tolerable.

Actually, basements are fairly common here with older homes. Sounds like you live in a split-level home, popular in the 70s and 80s.

We live in the sub off of the corner of Five Mile and Overland...which stretches all the way up to Cloverdale. All the houses in there were built in the 70's and 80's.

We bought (and later sold) a "farm" down on the south end of Nampa in '04 which had a huge basement. The previous owner told us his grandfather had blasted it out of a bed of lava rock with dynamite!

What's trippier, still - their family name was Bonham...and they swore they were distant relatives! All of his sons played drums, I helped them haul their kits out the day they were moving out.

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

We live in the sub off of the corner of Five Mile and Overland...which stretches all the way up to Cloverdale. All the houses in there were built in the 70's and 80's.

We bought (and later sold) a "farm" down on the south end of Nampa in '04 which had a huge basement. The previous owner told us his grandfather had blasted it out of a bed of lava rock with dynamite!

What's trippier, still - their family name was Bonham...and they swore they were distant relatives! All of his sons played drums, I helped them haul their kits out the day they were moving out.

Neat story about the Nampa farmhouse. If you had a basement surrounded by lava rock and a farm, that would be ideal! Then you'd just have to worry about the ceiling.

As for your split-level home, the only things that really stop sound are space and mass, but that reduces portability and will make it harder to tear down the room when you move. Putting two layers of sheetrock inside the room will help a lot. As for ventilation, if the fan duct was lined with thin foam and had a lot of bends and turns, that would help reduce escaping sound. But again, that's more to set up and take down. Too bad they don't have something inflatable!

[zidjan]

How much paper are you willing to burn for this sound proof room....? i had similar problem with you a few years ago...and my answer is www.vocalbooth.com
they are damn expensive but sure solved a lot of my problem ( portable and quiet). I was fortunate enough to find used one on ebay for half the price i should be paying. So check it out.

I suppose if you could just immitate how they build it..that should save you alot of papers.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

I gotcha. I figured a drop ceiling wouldn't cost too much though- at least no more than building a whole new room inside of your basement. I was thinking of the graph like frame you'd hang from the original ceiling with chains or cables, then put those foam like squares up there that fit perfectly into the graph. Then again, I'm not sure how much height you could stand to lose in the basement.

Something like this, but I was thinking more of one that would use a hanging frame instead of one that attached to the actual support beams like that. A hanging frame would be easy to remove if desired, but you'd have to sacrifice height in the room for that to work. Maybe you can discuss the project with the owner and perhaps they'd be willing to give you a discount on your rent to equal the cost of materials for a project like this? I dunno. heheh I'd give it a try. I understand where you're coming from though. I'm sure a finished basement would increase the value of their property, and if you did the labor they'd save money there. That's the trick, get them to pay for it. hahah

[fat in the middle]

This is not related to this discussion, but may prove to be interesting. We are building a straw bale studio for drumming, and I came across this site....

http://www.pindropclub.co.uk/strawdio/journal.htm

[cnw60]

Originally Posted by zidjan

How much paper are you willing to burn for this sound proof room....? i had similar problem with you a few years ago...and my answer is www.vocalbooth.com
they are damn expensive but sure solved a lot of my problem ( portable and quiet). I was fortunate enough to find used one on ebay for half the price i should be paying. So check it out.

I suppose if you could just immitate how they build it..that should save you alot of papers.

Zidjan nailed the big question - how much $$$ you wanna spend. that really determines your approach to the problem. The other question is: how much sound leakage is acceptable. Can your family deal with hearing a little bit of your drums or does the rest of the house need to be totally isolated from the drums.

I've heard of people just draping blankets to create a tent-like enclosure for their drums and having that work quite well - but obviously, not nearly as effective as other more extensive (and expensive) methods.

I also wouldn't worry about having enough oxygen, a room large enough to hold a drum set will have plenty of air to breathe. on the other hand - comfort will be your main concern. You'll at least need a fan to keep some air moving.

[thebrza]

You have to think of sound like water: wherever it can find a way, it will go there.

Sound proofing is not like acoustics which people often confuse and know little about. I'm not being an ass, I'm just saying... I don't know your skill level with this stuff so I can only say you should talk to people who are technically knowledgeable in sound.
www.studio-central.com has great forums for audio stuff.

The more variety of materials, the better. De-coupling the inside from the outside is a huge advantage also but requires some research and knowledge so you use the right stuff.

[elpol]

you can purchase a portable air conditioner, though you will need to install two holes for the intake and out-take hoses. The other idea would be a good quality reversible ceiling or wall mounted fan. reversible is a good idea, because you do want to bring in fresh air, as well as expel stale air. here's a link to one offered by danby. these are available all over the place: danby portable air conditioner.
also, if you install the portable air-con on the outside of the room and add to the length of hoses, with as small ports on your wall as you can get away with, the compromise on sound-proofing won't be horrible.

[GetAgrippa]

That reminds me of practicing with friends back in the sixties in an old basement fallout shelter. When we got kranked up we could see the asbestos ceiling showering down like snow. Cough, Cough, Cough-sputum. In the last two years my wife and I built a new home and we planned a music room. My builder promised the insulation and materials would make it reasonably sound proof. He was wrong, so I am trying to retrofit aesthetically and economically because I blew my life savings and I am in debt to my bung hole. The room is in the basement and the outside is no problem but inside it quite loud (partly because of the acoustics of the house). Any engineers or experts with suggestions. I have hearing difficulties so I regularly get my hearing checked in one of those sound proof booths. I note I can hear outside with the door closed and I am hard of hearing. Can a room really be made soundproof economically. Regards.

[sio_13]

I think the drop ceiling is the way to go, with plenty of insulation in between the floors. Also, studio foam on the walls will absorb some of the sound before it even reaches the upstairs. Real studio foam is pretty pricey, so your best bet is to get lots of foam egg shell matresses, and even packing blankets from U-Haul work pretty well. Put any kind of cloth material in there you can- couches work great to soak up sound as well. Just get creative. Hope it works out well, how about some pics documenting your progress? It might give us all some ideas.

[elpol]

Originally Posted by GetAgrippa

That reminds me of practicing with friends back in the sixties in an old basement fallout shelter. When we got kranked up we could see the asbestos ceiling showering down like snow. Cough, Cough, Cough-sputum. In the last two years my wife and I built a new home and we planned a music room. My builder promised the insulation and materials would make it reasonably sound proof. He was wrong, so I am trying to retrofit aesthetically and economically because I blew my life savings and I am in debt to my bung hole. The room is in the basement and the outside is no problem but inside it quite loud (partly because of the acoustics of the house). Any engineers or experts with suggestions. I have hearing difficulties so I regularly get my hearing checked in one of those sound proof booths. I note I can hear outside with the door closed and I am hard of hearing. Can a room really be made soundproof economically. Regards.

asbestos? yeesh...

unfortunately, there's a lot of shysters out there who claim that they know what they're doing... just because the wrapper on rock-wool insulation says it is 'sound-proofing' doesn't make it gospel. it helps, but not very much.

here's what i did with decent results. i have a 15x11 room in a 1/2 underground basement. the ceiling height is only 7'4", so i didn't have a lot to work with there.

basically, on the ceiling i first did two layers of rockwool insulation: one right against the upper sub-floor with the second layer at the bottom of the 2x12 beams. there is about a 4" air space in between these layers.

then, i added a layer of sound-board (donnaconna) to cover the joists. important: just before you do this, take some chalk or a pencil and mark the centers of the upper floor joists on the walls 2-3" below the joists. you will definitely need to know where these suckers are for adding all of the layers.

after this, put a layer of 1/2 drywall (fireboard, if available) over the sound-board.

then, add strips of resilient channel at 16" centers across the now-hidden joists.

the last layer will be 5/8" fireboard drywall (cause it's usually required by code), suspended on the resilient channel.

This will take away a good 2" of head room, but it adds mass and air space: two important components when sound-proofing a room. it will not make it 100% sound-proof simply because the mass is still connected to the main structure of the house, however it will be pretty darn good.

you can actually do similar treatments for the walls, minus the double layer insulation. if you have the room to do it (and the $$):

1/2" drywall --> soundboard --> 1/2" drywall --> resilient channel --> 1/2" drywall. you can have 1 layer of rockwool insulation in the wall studs.

if you have a concrete sub-floor and no other flooring, and if you have the space, you can 'float' a sub-floor over top. you can either purchase those expensive rubber pucks that the frame sits on, or try something a friend taught me: you know those ubiquitous jigsaw high-density foam mats that people buy for rec-rooms or work-out rooms? usually you buy these 4 to a pack or so. well, you can cut them up and they work as a cheap alternative to rubber pucks.

[Skitch]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

I did some searching on this and found a lot of dead-ends.

I'm going to start building a room-within-a-room in the next few weeks and here's my list of criteria & notes so far:

1. Must be portable - we rent our house so the room has to break-down and move with us when we move.

2. In the basement - it won't need a floor since the basement has a carpeted concrete floor.

3. Must contain the sound enough to practice at night, bedrooms are above the basement drum-room.

4. Must have some sort of ventilation...even if it's crude. I don't want to pass out after an hour due to a lack of oxygen.

I'm tired of my Roland TD-3 kit for night-time practice, it just doesn't cut it and I'm not willing to spend thousands on another higher-end Roland e-kit. I could get much more practice on an acoustic this way while also freeing up more family time after work, during weekdays.

I've already experimented a little w/ soundproofing. My father-in-law and I built 2 large doors to cover the basement doorway opening. They're about 2" thick and contain 2 layers of "sound board", which you can get at Home Depot for about $10 per 8'x7' sheet. The outside of the doors is a 1/8" thick cheap, laminated pressboard cover to make it more attractive. When those doors are up, they can hear very little of my drumming and band practice upstairs, thanks to the fact that we're in the basement and it's an older house - so the walls are fairly thick.

I figure I could take a similar approach (2 layers of sound board within the walls.) I would also need to use some sort of sound-absorbing material on the inside to prevent really horrific sound inside of the room...I'm thinking some sort of acoustic foam. I could use braces w/ nuts & bolts to hold the walls together, allowing me to break it down and move it, should we ever relocate.

Anyone else have tips, pointers, comments, etc.?

One of the things that you have covered in a way is the door. You really want a solid core door if at all possbile. I believe that the material you are talking of when you say "sound board" is a sound difussing material called tectum which is/was used in computer rooms back in the day.


Are there any joyces in the ceiling of your basement? If so, you could make a hanging sound-absorption panel to hang (securely from those joyces)
Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[thebrza]

getagripa

The materials used could've been good, but you have to install it properly for it to work. My guess is he probably didn't even know how easily sound gets through any little crack. (Ever notice if you're closing your bedroom door because of noise outside it gets quieter as you shut it but it's when the door is fully shut you suddenly notice the largest drop in sound passing through)


You can soundproof economically, but you'll likely end up with a little noise leakage than absolute isolation. But unless you're trying to build a really well isolated booth for recording, does some leakage matter?

www.studio-central.com - best forums for anything audio related.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

I gotcha. I figured a drop ceiling wouldn't cost too much though- at least no more than building a whole new room inside of your basement. I was thinking of the graph like frame you'd hang from the original ceiling with chains or cables, then put those foam like squares up there that fit perfectly into the graph. Then again, I'm not sure how much height you could stand to lose in the basement.

Something like this, but I was thinking more of one that would use a hanging frame instead of one that attached to the actual support beams like that. A hanging frame would be easy to remove if desired, but you'd have to sacrifice height in the room for that to work. Maybe you can discuss the project with the owner and perhaps they'd be willing to give you a discount on your rent to equal the cost of materials for a project like this? I dunno. heheh I'd give it a try. I understand where you're coming from though. I'm sure a finished basement would increase the value of their property, and if you did the labor they'd save money there. That's the trick, get them to pay for it. hahah

That's not a bad idea...but I think the ceiling is only 9' tall. Maybe I could just do this on the part right above the kit I'll practice on at night? The basement is already finished and the owners...well...it'd take an act of congress to get them to even show up at the door. Any repairs we've made, we've just billed back to them and taken out of our rent! Renting sucks...

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by GetAgrippa

That reminds me of practicing with friends back in the sixties in an old basement fallout shelter. When we got kranked up we could see the asbestos ceiling showering down like snow. Cough, Cough, Cough-sputum. In the last two years my wife and I built a new home and we planned a music room. My builder promised the insulation and materials would make it reasonably sound proof. He was wrong, so I am trying to retrofit aesthetically and economically because I blew my life savings and I am in debt to my bung hole. The room is in the basement and the outside is no problem but inside it quite loud (partly because of the acoustics of the house). Any engineers or experts with suggestions. I have hearing difficulties so I regularly get my hearing checked in one of those sound proof booths. I note I can hear outside with the door closed and I am hard of hearing. Can a room really be made soundproof economically. Regards.

Ha! Great story, man.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Skitch

One of the things that you have covered in a way is the door. You really want a solid core door if at all possbile. I believe that the material you are talking of when you say "sound board" is a sound difussing material called tectum which is/was used in computer rooms back in the day.


Are there any joyces in the ceiling of your basement? If so, you could make a hanging sound-absorption panel to hang (securely from those joyces)
Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

No, I'd have to find studs and inevitably damage the finished ceiling (drywall + paint). It's not out of the question but I'd really like to build something more portable...more like a "sarcophagus" for my kit...something that would break down into pieces and move with us when the time comes.

This way, I wouldn't have to try to soundproof the entire basement...the drum room is pretty big. I'd say it's roughy 40'x15'...just measuring from a mental picture.

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

Ah OK, so the ceiling is already finished. That does pose a problem to my idea. I think maybe the best bet now would be to try and construct a sound proof booth as was suggested above. Build each wall independently with hinges (or some sort of clamp) on the corners so you could tear down and reassemble. I imagine that would cost a bit though. Probably not so much for the frame, but the plexi-glass. Any salvage yards nearby? You may be able to find some scrap metal frames or pieces to use as the skeleton.

[cnw60]

back to the question of cost...

I would think that this project done right will equal or exceed the cost of a pro-quality set of e-drums. Are you sure that it wouldn't be better to go that route?

Just wonderin'???

And I gotta' agree with thebrza about checking out some other resources - sound isolation is a science and even if you use all the right stuff, if it isn't properly designed and built - you might end up with something that doesn't work very well.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by cnw60

back to the question of cost...

I would think that this project done right will equal or exceed the cost of a pro-quality set of e-drums. Are you sure that it wouldn't be better to go that route?

Just wonderin'???

And I gotta' agree with thebrza about checking out some other resources - sound isolation is a science and even it you use all the right stuff, if it isn't properly designed and built - you might end up with something that doesn't work very well.

Nah, I built my soundproof doors on-the-cheap. I'm estimating between $300 and $500. Mind you, it won't be 100% "sound proof" - some sound is going to get out. My only goal here is to *not* keep anyone awake at night in the bedrooms above.

I had thought about mute pads for the kit but I may as well just keep my e-kit at that point...it's equally as unenjoyable to play that way.

[cnw60]

that's cool - knowing that it doesn't have to be silent makes it easier for you. You can try things incrementally and just keep going till it's good enough for what you need. This can be one of those things where the dealing with the last 5% could be harder than everything else up that point.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by cnw60

that's cool - knowing that it doesn't have to be silent makes it easier for you. You can try things incrementally and just keep going till it's good enough for what you need. This can be one of those things where the dealing with the last 5% could be harder than everything else up that point.

Yeah, exactly...that was my thought. That's sort of how I built the doors.

I figured I could just keep adding layers until it a) got too heavy for an army of men to move or b) I ran out of money. Either way, it should *eventually* be quiet enough for me to use at night. Hopefully...

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by elpol

asbestos? yeesh...

unfortunately, there's a lot of shysters out there who claim that they know what they're doing... just because the wrapper on rock-wool insulation says it is 'sound-proofing' doesn't make it gospel. it helps, but not very much.

here's what i did with decent results. i have a 15x11 room in a 1/2 underground basement. the ceiling height is only 7'4", so i didn't have a lot to work with there.

basically, on the ceiling i first did two layers of rockwool insulation: one right against the upper sub-floor with the second layer at the bottom of the 2x12 beams. there is about a 4" air space in between these layers.

then, i added a layer of sound-board (donnaconna) to cover the joists. important: just before you do this, take some chalk or a pencil and mark the centers of the upper floor joists on the walls 2-3" below the joists. you will definitely need to know where these suckers are for adding all of the layers.

after this, put a layer of 1/2 drywall (fireboard, if available) over the sound-board.

then, add strips of resilient channel at 16" centers across the now-hidden joists.

the last layer will be 5/8" fireboard drywall (cause it's usually required by code), suspended on the resilient channel.

This will take away a good 2" of head room, but it adds mass and air space: two important components when sound-proofing a room. it will not make it 100% sound-proof simply because the mass is still connected to the main structure of the house, however it will be pretty darn good.

you can actually do similar treatments for the walls, minus the double layer insulation. if you have the room to do it (and the $$):

1/2" drywall --> soundboard --> 1/2" drywall --> resilient channel --> 1/2" drywall. you can have 1 layer of rockwool insulation in the wall studs.

if you have a concrete sub-floor and no other flooring, and if you have the space, you can 'float' a sub-floor over top. you can either purchase those expensive rubber pucks that the frame sits on, or try something a friend taught me: you know those ubiquitous jigsaw high-density foam mats that people buy for rec-rooms or work-out rooms? usually you buy these 4 to a pack or so. well, you can cut them up and they work as a cheap alternative to rubber pucks.

Oh man, I can't believe I missed this. This is very helpful, thanks!!