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  #1  
Old Yesterday, 11:07 AM
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Default Is it just me?

There's a plethora of threads that start something like, "....I like to play heavy rock and metal, so which K cymbals (or any others' jazz-type) would work in this context?"

Wth?

Like drumsets, as we all discover it's just easier to have at least two different kits for different things, maybe people should start thinking beyond one complete set of cymbals too? And I know there are several here already who just collect cymbals and probably have everything they need for a couple of lifetimes. But I'm wondering where this idea comes from that dark, trashy (smokey?) cymbals would work well in the athletic context of competing with a couple of guys with full Marshall stacks cranked up to 11?

I understand if you're mic'ed up all the time, you can get away with using anything you like, but that's not the case with alot of people here, either (sometimes me included). I remember seeing Rick Allen of Def Leppard with a few K's in his set-up when he debuted one-armed, but in the arena setting, he's totally mic'ed up and his environment is downright civil compared to what guys do when they're slugging it out every night on the club scene.

So, if you like to play heavy rock/metal, what's the attraction to having dark and trashy cymbals that don't project incredibly well when used in a heavily amplified situation without mics? I'm kinda of a lazy guy so if I can get the gear to help me, I'm prone to doing that - hence why I'd be using Paiste Rude cymbals in a heavy rock setting (or at least Zildjian A's). I'd have a complete set of A's (or Z's for that matter) for the heavier rock stuff, and break out my K's (or 602's. or HH's) when I want to be the sensitive jazz guy.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old Yesterday, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
...I'd be using Paiste Rude cymbals in a heavy rock setting (or at least Zildjian A's). I'd have a complete set of A's (or Z's for that matter) for the heavier rock stuff, and break out my K's (or 602's. or HH's) when I want to be the sensitive jazz guy.
Lets get to the root of your quandary here Bo...

What kind of music are you called to play these days and what type of pies are you using for that? I know you're a very good working drummer who plays a lot of stuff but I'm really curious to get at what a pro player can cover with what gear.

...For the record, I'd like to note that you love for the Zidjian K Custom 20" Ride lead me to discover my own 22" K Medium ride and Caddy's spewing led me to try the 24" L Light ride. I hated it. I still tried it though.
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  #3  
Old Yesterday, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

I've never regarded K's as that dark really, just on the little softer & less cutting side of things. Agree with the unmic'd observation in a loud stage setting observation though.

I have two thoughts on this:

1/ If you're playing with a PA, even a little vocal PA on poles with a small desk or combo desk/amp, it's not too much trouble to throw up a couple of overheads if you really want to maintain a certain cymbal timbre but still be heard adequately in the mix.

2/ If you can't be arsed to do that, & cut is more important to you, then get a set of 2002's & be done with it!
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  #4  
Old Yesterday, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

I play the small bar/club scene here and I would say I have mics about 1/3 of the time. Even then its mostly just a kick/snare mic combo. One of the bigger places we play has a full close micing system for the drums and 1 mic for the hats but no overheads.

I play with a ton of rock and metal bands. Most of the bands we play with are full of kids with B8's and ZBT's. Those with pro-level cymbals are mostly playing A Customs and AAX lines. I tend to focus quite a bit on the other drummers and I help them out whenever I can. I think I have seen at most a couple of drummers with K's or handmade turkish cymbals with more complex characteristics.

I would say most of those posts you see are kids dreaming of getting new cymbals and they are just looking at the most expensive ones on the market. Rarely do they actually go out and purchase them.
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  #5  
Old Yesterday, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

It is much easier said than done to be carrying more than one batch of cymbals. These things are bloody expensive, especially when you're talking the HH/HHX/A Custom/K Custom end of the market. I'd imagine that in most cases carrying one cover-all set of cymbals is the upper end of most people's budgets.
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  #6  
Old Yesterday, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

If someone wants a darker sound with cut why not go with HHX? I've never had a problem with my HHX cymbals matching the cut of my AAX cymbals and they offer a nice contrast to the AAX shattered glass sound. I cannot imagine AA and HH cymbals having enough cut for a metal band going full tilt.

I love my 18" HHXplosion as my main crash for the shimmering, dark sound it offers. It sonically fills up the back ground of the song without becoming overwhelming or overly washy. Then when I do need an accent I use my AAX crashes since they cut above the HHX wash.

Similarly I have 14" HHX evo hats and 13" AAXcellerators as aux hats. The HHX hats give the dark shimmer I want for parts of the song that are dynamically lower and the AAX hats have the cut and crispness I need to climb over the distortion.

That's my take on dark sounds in Metal/Heavy music. You need the high profile cymbals to get right amount of cut but dark and bright sounds mixing isn't such a bad thing IMO.
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Old Yesterday, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Dark and trashy cymbals seem more versatile to me. I seem to be able to get more sounds out of them. They seem to respond to more minute changes in playing. I like them in other words. as far as i can tell you can use any cymbal for any genre. In a loud amplified un-miced situation it wont matter what you are using because all nuance of the cymbal sound will be lost in the mix.
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  #8  
Old Yesterday, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
There's a plethora of threads that start something like, "....I like to play heavy rock and metal, so which K cymbals (or any others' jazz-type) would work in this context?"

Wth?

Like drumsets, as we all discover it's just easier to have at least two different kits for different things, maybe people should start thinking beyond one complete set of cymbals too? And I know there are several here already who just collect cymbals and probably have everything they need for a couple of lifetimes. But I'm wondering where this idea comes from that dark, trashy (smokey?) cymbals would work well in the athletic context of competing with a couple of guys with full Marshall stacks cranked up to 11?
I think people are just looking for that end-all "perfect" set of cymbals that will sound like whatever they want them to sound like. To some people a cymbal is a cymbal, and they can get by with playing that cracked Pitch Black rock crash and be content. Some of us have more picky tastes and realize that there is no such thing as a cymbal that will do it all. Then again, some people just play one or two genres of music and have their one set of cymbals that sounds good for both, unlike other players who play several types of music that are, inherently, completely different-sounding than the others. It's a matter of what you play, what sound(s) you're after, etc., and also the practical matters like how much money you budget for cymbals, how much extra hassle you're willing to put up with storing and keeping track of them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Menace View Post
...and Caddy's spewing led me to try the 24" L Light ride. I hated it. I still tried it though.
Like mama used to say, "Any publicity is good publicity."

That's the great thing about this forum: I've heard about and tried so many new/different pieces of gear that others have suggested. Some I liked, some I didn't. At least I found out about them and got to experiment with them and form my own opinion. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Modernist View Post
I'd imagine that in most cases carrying one cover-all set of cymbals is the upper end of most people's budgets.
They ARE expensive, true. It's about how you prioritize your budget. Some people might think, "I don't have the money to buy an extra ride or crash." but then they go out to dinner 2x a week and have a car payment on a new car they bought. People vote with their dollar about what is important to them. Unless they are in dire straights, most people could reallocate *some* funds, or at least start a small savings fund, to buy more gear. If you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen. If somebody were to prioritize going out for drinks three times a week, buying a gym membership, rent an apartment, and a myriad of other ways to literally throw away money, then that's their deal.
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  #9  
Old Yesterday, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

I'd say, with all due respect, yea it is just you Bo. I detect a preconceived notion that K's are not suited to certain genres. It's just a cymbal, you hit it, it sounds.

Does it really bother you if someone plays K's in a metal band? You're too chill to think that, if I know you at all. So what are we talking about here? I don't categorize K's as trashy in any way, dark in any way, or smoky in any way. K Cons have those qualities, but regular K's to me sound much closer to A Customs than K Cons.

What's the question again?
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  #10  
Old Yesterday, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Its all in the equalization...

...notch those martial stacks in the dominate freq range of your cymbal and ignore if they find the 12 setting on the dial...the cymbal is heard.

I find that if a k gets swallowed then other cymbals wont fare much better without amplification of the cymbal or modification of the other sound envelopes.

other folks notice if unamplified k series gets swallowed in <=1 stack smallish room environments?
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  #11  
Old Yesterday, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

I think, in part, because people see that the K's and equivalents are the most expensive line of Zildjian (or whatever brand) and the thought most expensive = best, even though that is not necessarily the case.

The other aspect is what type of metal.

I agree with Bo, in what I think in terms of hard rock/metal, thin cymbals don't work. When I think of guys like Tommy Aldridge, Lars Ulrich, the late Randy Castillo, and such players, K's aren't going to cut it. I mean, that's why Zildjian invented the Z line!

But the modern extreme metal drummers are different. Many of them hit really lightly because they are going to fast. For them, they need a thin cymbal with a short decay. They need a cymbal that responds to a light stroke, and then get out of way for the next hit.

So when a kid says they play metal, it's not always clear which approach they may be coming from.
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  #12  
Old Yesterday, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

The current trend definitely seems to be towards the thinner, trashier models that are being marketed as more "explosive". Their current prominence has less to do with the lathing and hammering though (that smokey/trashy sound you're referring to) and more to do with the thickness of the cymbals. The reason those cymbals aren't cutting through is because of how much less energy it takes to open them up, which directly relates to how much volume they can put out. In my local metal scene, I know of several guys who use K/K Custom/Byzance/HH light rides or crash/rides as their crashes because they desire a darker sound, but are thick enough to cut over the marshall stacks cranked up to 11.

Hope that makes sense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
It's just a cymbal, you hit it, it sounds.
Exactly Larry!

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  #13  
Old Yesterday, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Well, I didn't bring this up because I had a problem. I mention it because we have a number of threads like this, and consequently, the opinions boil down to "you have to have cymbals that cut" or something like that. Which leads me to the question as to why the question comes up in the first place? I make everything I have work, for whatever I'm doing - so that is just me.
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  #14  
Old Yesterday, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Well, I didn't bring this up because I had a problem. I mention it because we have a number of threads like this, and consequently, the opinions boil down to "you have to have cymbals that cut" or something like that. Which leads me to the question as to why the question comes up in the first place? I make everything I have work, for whatever I'm doing - so that is just me.
but it sounds like you have a huge selection of cymbals to choose from. a lot of the threads are for a drummer looking for one brand and range to buy thats versatile enough to use for more than one style.
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Old Yesterday, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

I'd really like to see a test done that measures the difference in range of decibels from the "quietest" cymbal to the "loudest" cymbal. I don't think it's as much as it's made out to be.

If any cymbal is getting swallowed up by a stack of Marshalls, do we really want to add to the decibel level to cut through? Whatever happened to blending anyway? At that SPL it's microphone territory anyway, so any cymbal that pleases the player would work.

You can use any cymbal for any genre. Loudness is a different issue. If you're not loud enough, it's not the cymbals fault. Either mic or get the others volume under control. Buying cymbals that cut through as the main reason for the purchase seems silly to me. I'd buy for the tone, and help it along if it's not loud enough. Tone first, everything else 2nd.
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Old Yesterday, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'd really like to see a test done that measures the difference in range of decibels from the "quietest" cymbal to the "loudest" cymbal. I don't think it's as much as it's made out to be.

If any cymbal is getting swallowed up by a stack of Marshalls, do we really want to add to the decibel level to cut through? Whatever happened to blending anyway? At that SPL it's microphone territory anyway, so any cymbal that pleases the player would work.

You can use any cymbal for any genre. Loudness is a different issue. If you're not loud enough, it's not the cymbals fault. Either mic or get the others volume under control. Buying cymbals that cut through as the main reason for the purchase seems silly to me. I'd buy for the tone, and help it along if it's not loud enough. Tone first, everything else 2nd.
I was going to say it's more of an volume problem from the guitarists and other band members if a drummer is being swallowed. As drummers we have a max volume level that doesn't get any louder even if we try to smash our kit to bits.

As for the loudest cymbal, I'd put my money on the Holy China.
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Old Yesterday, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winegums View Post

As for the loudest cymbal, I'd put my money on the Holy China.
I have to wonder if it's the frequencies it produces that makes it "seem" loud.

My guess is the Holy China isn't much louder in decibels than another cymbal, it just produces really cutting freqs. My 10" splash is definitely not a loud cymbal, but you can't miss it because of the freqs it makes.

But I'm just speculating.
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  #18  
Old Yesterday, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Though I use some more cutting cymbals for heavier music at times, I have a K Custom Dark ride that's the most versatile cymbal I own. It cuts through any bar band gig I've played (metal, hard rock, and punk) and my playing aside also sounds great at very low volumes in jazz settings where conversation is expected to be audible at a table 5 feet away. Different sticks help optimise things but 5A's work fine either way. It also has a lush tone at all volumes. It has a lovely woody stick with SD4's but with a regular nylon 5A it's nice and bright and cutting on top. The wash is kind of dark and rich. It's not a trashy cymbal though.

Any especially loud heavy gigs I've played with it have been miked up anyway.

I have a 3,000g 22" Epoch on the way - I wonder how that would play behind heavy stuff with 2Bs?

I mean, my AA Raw Ride won't cut it for louder unmiked jazz/funk gigs, but there are a lot of fairly versatile K's/HHX's.
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  #19  
Old Today, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Hyde View Post
but it sounds like you have a huge selection of cymbals to choose from. a lot of the threads are for a drummer looking for one brand and range to buy thats versatile enough to use for more than one style.
Actually, I only have one set of cymbals. I just make it sound like I have alot of cymbals to choose from. I'm still only dealing with a couple of K rides, A thin crashes and New Beats. I've used the same cymbal set-up for at least the last 20 years. It was only recently when I discovered the K Light Ride, and then expanded my hi-hat selection to include 15" New Beats from the 70s in addition to my new 14" New Beats. So I've just been making what I have work all these years, and I know when it's too loud for everyone, to say "I need to mic up".
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  #20  
Old Today, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Is it just me?

I learned years ago from a hard-hitting drummer that K's were actually more durable due to the random hammering patterns in lieu of the consistent machine-perfect hammer patterns.

Being that most of the cymbals I crack are indeed of the "AA" variety, I tend to agree with him. :D
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