DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:10 AM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,315
Default Rant!

Ok, two other bands & a venue have just really pissed me off.

We played a big outdoor event earlier this year. It was a charity biker bash for about 6,000 people. The organisers hired a venue (name withheld to protect the cheap ass b&^^&*s). That venue contacted us a few weeks ago on fee + availability for a gig next November for a similar size crowd. We confirmed availability & quoted £400 ($660) based on everything being provided (it's about a 1 hour haul from my house). This is a commercial money make for the venue but with a token charitable donation (another misrepresentation deal that annoys me too). Anyhow, that's a very good price for a band of our standing.

Wind forward to our gig in the same out of town area last Saturday night. I got speaking to some guys who came to see us play. They're from a very good band local to the area. I mentioned the gig call for next November, & they told me they got the same call. They confirmed they'd put in about the same fee range as us. They've heard that two other (mediocre, if I'm being kind) bands got the gig ahead of us, on the basis they charged £50 ($66). WTF!!!!!

Ok, so WTF do these bands think they're doing? We're talking about doing a gig for a major commercial operation that's going to gross over $60,000 for the event, & they put in a joke fee like that??? Two parties at fault here;

1/ The venue for cheaping out on a show of this size. Frankly, at the fee we appropriated, same with the other band too, they would have got two of the very best acts around at a bargain price, & a show worthy of the event. Because of their dime pinching, they're getting a couple of barely passable pub/cabaret acts (one of the "bands" uses a drum machine). Makes no commercial sense in terms of promoting patronage of future events, that's for sure.

2/ The cheap ass "bands" for putting in a joke of a fee just to get the gig. In these circumstances, there was absolutely no need to cheap out so badly. They're ruining it for all musicians, & sending the worst possible message to venues that live music is disposable/valueless.

We don't need the gig, but man, the principals at play here really disappoint me on so many levels.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:29 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,591
Default Re: Rant!

Sounds like the Mexican construction companies in the US that undercut the local companies by scrimping on materials and OH&S.

I guess since drum machines replaced drummers on the basis of economics in the studio it's not too surprising that they are replacing us live too. I wonder about the punters - why they don't protest and demand "proper" bands for their money.
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:44 AM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,315
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
I guess since drum machines replaced drummers on the basis of economics in the studio it's not too surprising that they are replacing us live too. I wonder about the punters - why they don't protest and demand "proper" bands for their money.
Grea, the drum machine comment was just a throw away mention as an indication of the type of act I'm talking about. We've all seen them - weak, benign, going through the motions kinda deal. That's one "band", the other is a zero impact type acoustic guitar based cover band. To some extent, the quality of act isn't the main deal here, it's the cheaping out aspect, from both venue & acts, + the message it sends. Considering the budget for this show (a fireworks/bonfire event), talking + or - a few hundred £ is just silly.

Our band members would only have taken $100 each for this gig, simply on the basis it's a show up & play kinda deal. That's peanut money for good players with a good show.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:51 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11,258
Default Re: Rant!

I suppose all you can do is step back and watch it burn down. If it does indeed, burn. Some people just have to do what they do and find out after the fact how bad it really was. People aren't stupid and they can sense when things are being chimped on. You just gotta let it go and watch what happens.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:05 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,315
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I suppose all you can do is step back and watch it burn down. If it does indeed, burn. Some people just have to do what they do and find out after the fact how bad it really was. People aren't stupid and they can sense when things are being chimped on. You just gotta let it go and watch what happens.
Agreed. I'm not overly bothered from a personal POV, It's the ongoing implications that concern me. We're already in an environment where many venues regard live music as a very low cost option, whereas DJ's are commanding high fees & getting them. I understand original music acts struggling to get opportunities. That's a tough deal - always has been, always will be, but cover acts putting out popular tunes shouldn't be encouraging gross devaluation like this. It's not necessary, especially at events where there's clearly not an acute cash flow issue.

I take every opportunity to increase fees, not just for my act, but on behalf of all acts who can be bothered to put on a show, & accordingly, fill venues. This disposable attitude already extends to commercial venture summer festivals where support acts are unpaid. I just don't get why venues don't see value in the quality of acts they book. It's almost as if the fact they've booked something is good enough.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:27 PM
Big Foot's Avatar
Big Foot Big Foot is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: QC
Posts: 739
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
We're already in an environment where many venues regard live music as a very low cost option, whereas DJ's are commanding high fees & getting them.
This seems to be the trend here in Montreal. There are so many bands, and plenty of good ones at that, that the venues are basically only paying for your cab fair. With so much competition, bands are taking what they can get and the venues are laughing.
Unless you're in a wedding band you're just playing out for the fun of playing out. But even the wedding band is in competition with the DJ (Gawd, some of those guys are so painful to listen to - the shmaltz, just shoot me). I blame that on people not getting out and taking the time to enjoy what a musical act has to offer.

What's wrong with society when a DJ can be as entertaining as a band?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:34 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,315
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot View Post
But even the wedding band is in competition with the DJ (Gawd, some of those guys are so painful to listen to - the shmaltz, just shoot me).
The wedding band, or the DJ? Either choice, I agree - mostly.

The majority of wedding bands I see are just so damn boring it's untrue. Mostly not very good players, & even when they are good, it's obviously a grind for them. There is one wedding band I like though. They do the usual reserved wedding fayre, but occasionally, they step out & do something on the normal circuit. When they do, they're stunning! Almost as if someone took the shackles off - great to see, but absolutely the exception :(
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:41 PM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,261
Default Re: Rant!

...

Andy, put yourself in the organiser's head.

He want music. He wants to see people drinking. He wants to spend as little as possible. 99% of club/venue owners couldn't care less
about the music.

As a patron also, if your are 5 to 6 rows deep in the club, all you hear is thump-thump-thump- people chatter and clinking glass.

Those 10 guys who are into what the band is playing? Heck, they don't buy enough drinks anyways.

As for the bargain bands- many are happy to play for free/ or a token amount.



I think we 'musicians' are the ones kidding ourselves.

....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:53 PM
Big Foot's Avatar
Big Foot Big Foot is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: QC
Posts: 739
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
The wedding band, or the DJ? Either choice, I agree - mostly.
Either for sure. I've been to way to many weddings (I married a lovely Italian from a big extended family) and suffered through one or the other and often both during the same evening...thank god for the open bar...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:00 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,315
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
...

Andy, put yourself in the organiser's head.

He want music. He wants to see people drinking. He wants to spend as little as possible. 99% of club/venue owners could care less about the music.

As a patron also, if your are 5 to 6 rows deep in the club, all you hear is thump-thump-thump- people chatter and clinking glass.

Those 10 guys who are into what the band is playing? Heck, they don't buy enough drinks anyways.

As for the bargain bands- many are happy to play for free/ or a token amount.



I think we 'musicians' are the ones kidding ourselves.

....
Abe, I get that in a club scenario where the venue is popular, say on a Friday/Saturday night, but at an annual outdoor where the band/bands are a significant part of the draw, act quality certainly matters IMO. In the bar/pub gig circuit, band quality determines wether the venue is empty or full for the night, & if full, for how long.

In general though, & especially in the environment you describe , yes, act quality is way down the list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot View Post
Either for sure. I've been to way to many weddings (I married a lovely Italian from a big extended family) and suffered through one or the other and often both during the same evening...thank god for the open bar...
Yes, I get that, & agree on the open bar ;)

Congratulations BTW!
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:10 PM
Big Foot's Avatar
Big Foot Big Foot is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: QC
Posts: 739
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Congratulations BTW!
Thanks, but it's been 22 years and she's still quite lovely. :)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-30-2013, 01:16 PM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Ok, two other bands & a venue have just really pissed me off.

We played a big outdoor event earlier this year. It was a charity biker bash for about 6,000 people. The organisers hired a venue (name withheld to protect the cheap ass b&^^&*s). That venue contacted us a few weeks ago on fee + availability for a gig next November for a similar size crowd. We confirmed availability & quoted £400 ($660) based on everything being provided (it's about a 1 hour haul from my house). This is a commercial money make for the venue but with a token charitable donation (another misrepresentation deal that annoys me too). Anyhow, that's a very good price for a band of our standing.

Wind forward to our gig in the same out of town area last Saturday night. I got speaking to some guys who came to see us play. They're from a very good band local to the area. I mentioned the gig call for next November, & they told me they got the same call. They confirmed they'd put in about the same fee range as us. They've heard that two other (mediocre, if I'm being kind) bands got the gig ahead of us, on the basis they charged £50 ($66). WTF!!!!!

Ok, so WTF do these bands think they're doing? We're talking about doing a gig for a major commercial operation that's going to gross over $60,000 for the event, & they put in a joke fee like that??? Two parties at fault here;

1/ The venue for cheaping out on a show of this size. Frankly, at the fee we appropriated, same with the other band too, they would have got two of the very best acts around at a bargain price, & a show worthy of the event. Because of their dime pinching, they're getting a couple of barely passable pub/cabaret acts (one of the "bands" uses a drum machine). Makes no commercial sense in terms of promoting patronage of future events, that's for sure.

2/ The cheap ass "bands" for putting in a joke of a fee just to get the gig. In these circumstances, there was absolutely no need to cheap out so badly. They're ruining it for all musicians, & sending the worst possible message to venues that live music is disposable/valueless.

We don't need the gig, but man, the principals at play here really disappoint me on so many levels.
Devil's advocate here...

You say they're ruining it for all musicians...but they're not. They're just ruining it for those who want to make a good slug of money. The two bands who got the gig have, errr, got the gig. It's not ruined for them. They'll probably have a great day.

I fully sympathise with YOU. I don't empathise with you because I'm in a 'professional' band (ie. we are serious and professional about what we do even though we get shafted left, right, and centre by venues, promoters AND OTHER BANDS !!) who get paid peanuts so I think my aims differ from yours.

But, really, you have to see it from a) the other bands' points of view and b) the venue point of view.

And yes, I agree, they'll probably be a crap band.

But I've seen plenty of highly paid professional bands (including a number of tribute bands) who have been utter dross...and been paid thousands !!
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:14 PM
eclipseownzu's Avatar
eclipseownzu eclipseownzu is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New London, CT
Posts: 867
Default Re: Rant!

I dont get why a band would go through all that it takes to put on a show and make no money to do it. Not that money is necessarily a great reason to play music, but its the only reason I can think of to play covers. I really don't understand people at all.

I dont think promoters care for music anymore than carpenters care for trees. We are a means to an end and the cheaper we are the better. Really makes music unions look like a good idea.
__________________
www.reverbnation.com/stikpin
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:28 PM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,249
Default Re: Rant!

More people are cheated in the name of charity each year than are cheated by any other scam.
I often get requests to play events like this at a low price. I learned not to give in because there is always someone making money at it. They use you as the sucker by appealing to your heart. They even make you feel guilty if you don't take the bait.
Being involved in the aftermath of Sandy Hook really opened my eyes to the, "Big Biz" of charity events.
I have no problem with charity events if everyone is pitching in and just covering their overhead costs.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:37 PM
The Old Hyde
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Rant!

what really sucks is the disparity in the quality of bands in the lineup. who really wants to play on a bill with crap acts. it may make you look better but it sucks.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-30-2013, 02:51 PM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
More people are cheated in the name of charity each year than are cheated by any other scam.
I often get requests to play events like this at a low price. I learned not to give in because there is always someone making money at it. They use you as the sucker by appealing to your heart. They even make you feel guilty if you don't take the bait.
Being involved in the aftermath of Sandy Hook really opened my eyes to the, "Big Biz" of charity events.
I have no problem with charity events if everyone is pitching in and just covering their overhead costs.
Agreed...

No-one should be earning....or everyone should be.

My band and I organised a charity event last year. Five unsigned bands...all brought a following. All drank lots. All went unpaid, as did the doormen, sound engineer and staff.

Owner of the venue still ripped us off and held out on about 50% of the value of the ticket sales...bastard
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:11 PM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,249
Default Re: Rant!

Last year a member from one of the bands that I play with approached me and the rest of the band about playing at his church's annual fair.
I said that I would play it for $50 to cover my expenses. He said that they wanted us to play for free.
My response to him was thus;
1) The church does not pay taxes, I do
2) The food venders, the ride operators, the police, etc are paid. If they work for free, I will.
3) The whole purpose of a fair is to raise money for the church and also help the local economy. I am part of the local economy. I earn $50 at the fair and I spend the cash at local stores afterwards.
Part of the job of a church is to support the local community and not just take from it in the name of God.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:26 PM
MrPockets's Avatar
MrPockets MrPockets is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Scrilla VIlla
Posts: 600
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
Last year a member from one of the bands that I play with approached me and the rest of the band about playing at his church's annual fair.
I said that I would play it for $50 to cover my expenses. He said that they wanted us to play for free.
My response to him was thus;
1) The church does not pay taxes, I do
2) The food venders, the ride operators, the police, etc are paid. If they work for free, I will.
3) The whole purpose of a fair is to raise money for the church and also help the local economy. I am part of the local economy. I earn $50 at the fair and I spend the cash at local stores afterwards.
Part of the job of a church is to support the local community and not just take from it in the name of God.
Bad form on his part. If you weren't a member of the congregation, you should have received money.
__________________
Drum is fum
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:54 PM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 5,459
Default Re: Rant!

What I don't get is why a DJ is paid more than a cover band, he/she only play records... I'll go to see and listen to a live band, but I won't go to a DJ's entertained party... I'll prefer to stay at home, the records are better, the booze's cheaper and I'm in good company.
__________________
Keep On Drumming
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-30-2013, 04:28 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,284
Default Re: Rant!

Quality rant Andy. The business of music stinks. At an event like that, I am surprised you didn't ask for triple what you quoted them.

One thing that could have happened....you could have cornered the other bands and unloaded your brain on them so they think twice the next time.

Vin is largely right though, there's no getting around that mentality. Cheap is the name of the game to the ones who do the hiring and it's not going to change, ever.

It does peeve me off that DJ's get the money they do. That would be a big sour grapes on my part. Musicians truly are at the very bottom of the pile, largely due to bands 1 and 2. Thing one and thing two.
__________________
I pay no attention whatever to anybody's praise or blame. I simply follow my own feelings
Mozart
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-30-2013, 06:01 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,315
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquadLeader View Post
I fully sympathise with YOU. I don't empathise with you because I'm in a 'professional' band (ie. we are serious and professional about what we do even though we get shafted left, right, and centre by venues, promoters AND OTHER BANDS !!)
Our band may not be our sole form of income, but we're certainly professional & serious about what we do. It's a bit more than a bunch of guys bashing out a few songs in the corner of a bar.

I get your point about it not ruining it for the two bands concerned, but I must disagree with you on it not adversely affecting anyone else. I don't give a crap about the loss of the gig, we have more gig offers than we want to take, but the affect of devaluing live acts in general is not helped by accepting joke token performance fees.

Agree on the lame acts getting paid a ton of cash though, but invariably, they've achieved some form of notoriety at some stage in their "career". Doesn't excuse it though :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I said that I would play it for $50 to cover my expenses. He said that they wanted us to play for free.
Quite right too Bob. If the cause is a good one, & the finances are fair + transparent, I don't mind playing 1 or 2 such events per year. No way I'm paying to play though, that's just disrespectful towards those giving their time freely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
At an event like that, I am surprised you didn't ask for triple what you quoted them.
Exactly! We quoted them about 1/3rd of the fee we'd normally appropriate for a rally or festival. The only reasons we reduced it were 1/ there was some sort of charity element. 2/ We don't have to haul PA + lighting plus pay crew.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-30-2013, 06:13 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,441
Default Re: Rant!

That's just straight up malpractice on the part of the event promoters. Like if they tried to save a few bucks by serving funky, out of date beer at the bar, or hiring their dirtbag fry cook brother-in-law to be the chef. I agree with Larry that your bid for this job was too low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
I think we 'musicians' are the ones kidding ourselves.
I don't know how anyone can be a professional musician and agree with that sentiment. Just because music is worthless to some people doesn't mean you have to agree with them, and play by their rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquadLeader View Post
You say they're ruining it for all musicians...but they're not. They're just ruining it for those who want to make a good slug of money. The two bands who got the gig have, errr, got the gig. It's not ruined for them. They'll probably have a great day.
If you're in a professional act and think that ~$600+ is a good slug of money for entertaining 6000 people... well, I don't know what to tell you.

And what the other bands got is not a gig. Sort of like working for McDonald's for 5 cents an hour in not a job. I don't know how you think you're ever going to earn a living in this business.

Quote:
But, really, you have to see it from a) the other bands' points of view and b) the venue point of view.
Actually, you don't. Clearly the event promoters are total bottom-feeding scumbags who wouldn't get out of bed to p*** if they thought they could get away with it, and the bands are the rankest amateurs on the planet, and have no business seeking paying work. You have to maintain professional standards no matter what anyone else is doing.
__________________
Visit: Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-30-2013, 07:12 PM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,261
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post

I don't know how anyone can be a professional musician and agree with that sentiment. Just because music is worthless to some people doesn't mean you have to agree with them, and play by their rules.

…and I dont know how you can be a pro and not agree that thats the reality out there, even if it might not apply to you, personally.

Sure, play by your own rules and play for your friends, admirers and for the love of music, and for nickles and dimes.

Yes, live music is worthless to club owners/ event promoters and other business folk in general.

Its a commodity. Its not art that needs patronage, like what you & I might want to believe.

To them, its footfalls. Just a means to fill a club, a venue, or a stadium.



...and the music business world has been sucking off this little perception mismatch, since forever.

You want to know why?

Because they know that deep down inside your heart…

way way down..

… its your achilles heel. That if they give you a stage, and and audience, and a chance to express yourself - because that is your oxygen, isnt it? -

you WILL do the gig. Practically for free. If youy don't, there's somebody else who will.

Oh yes, they do know that- and they milk it till the cows come home.




...

Last edited by aydee; 12-30-2013 at 09:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-30-2013, 07:57 PM
brady's Avatar
brady brady is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,314
Default Re: Rant!

I understand what you're saying. This really screws everyone. Folks hoping to have a nice live band at a great event get a karoake show instead...or worse. It should be clear to most there that the promoters skimped on the band budget. You'll have to wait and see.

A deal like this ruins it for all the other bands too. There are several bands in my area more than willing to play for only tips or to be paid about $25 for a night's work. That's pathetic; just because some of these bands are that desperate to get a gig, they'll take anything.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-30-2013, 08:58 PM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Our band may not be our sole form of income, but we're certainly professional & serious about what we do. It's a bit more than a bunch of guys bashing out a few songs in the corner of a bar.

I get your point about it not ruining it for the two bands concerned, but I must disagree with you on it not adversely affecting anyone else. I don't give a crap about the loss of the gig, we have more gig offers than we want to take, but the affect of devaluing live acts in general is not helped by accepting joke token performance fees.

Agree on the lame acts getting paid a ton of cash though, but invariably, they've achieved some form of notoriety at some stage in their "career". Doesn't excuse it though :(

.
I think you probably took what I said the wrong way...when I parenthesised 'professional' I meant that we act, play, and carry ourselves professionally even if we don't get paid or receive minimal pay. I wasn't poking a finger at your and your band at all.

My point stands....it's clearly not a joke performance fee for the other bands....you need not like it but they'll be playing for exposure, for tips, and for fun. You've priced yourself out. It's not right but welcome to the world of the unsigned band in the UK.

And you sort of said it yourself....you're getting plenty of gigs so your fine. Perhaps they aren't but desperately want to play out. I think it harsh to be too critical on the band. The promoter/venue for sure...but the band....sh1t man they just wanna play maybe ??
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-30-2013, 09:00 PM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by brady View Post
I understand what you're saying. This really screws everyone. Folks hoping to have a nice live band at a great event get a karoake show instead...or worse. It should be clear to most there that the promoters skimped on the band budget. You'll have to wait and see.

A deal like this ruins it for all the other bands too. There are several bands in my area more than willing to play for only tips or to be paid about $25 for a night's work. That's pathetic; just because some of these bands are that desperate to get a gig, they'll take anything.
Yeah....shock, horror, bands wanna get out and showcase their music and play to an audience.

I really don't understand why people are poking the finger at bands like it's a major crime that, rather than stay at home, demand 200 quid and get ZERO gigs, they'd rather go out, demand 50 notes and get SOME gigs.

Sheesh...must be just me
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-30-2013, 09:59 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,315
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquadLeader View Post
I think you probably took what I said the wrong way...when I parenthesised 'professional' I meant that we act, play, and carry ourselves professionally even if we don't get paid or receive minimal pay. I wasn't poking a finger at your and your band at all.
It's ok, I didn't take it that way at all. I was just highlighting the fact that we take our shows seriously, & the venues get great value for money, both in terms of reputation for quality acts & financially in takings.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:14 PM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,591
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquadLeader View Post
I really don't understand why people are poking the finger at bands like it's a major crime that, rather than stay at home, demand 200 quid and get ZERO gigs, they'd rather go out, demand 50 notes and get SOME gigs.
When the number of gigs shrink, the pros want hobbyists to stop taking their gigs and stop inadvertently driving pay down while they try to pay rent and feed their bambinos.

Meanwhile many hobbyists just want to play out once in a while to bring some light and soul into their miserable lives after slogging it out with the automatons at work.

It's an example of conflict of interest brought about by scarcity. Two worthy causes - one gig.

I can't see a satisfactory answer. Maybe it's just as Sting said, when the world is running down you make the best of what's still around ...
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:21 PM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
That's just straight up malpractice on the part of the event promoters. Like if they tried to save a few bucks by serving funky, out of date beer at the bar, or hiring their dirtbag fry cook brother-in-law to be the chef. I agree with Larry that your bid for this job was too low.

Is it balls as malpractice....absolutely the opposite from the perspective of what the role of the organisers of that event are tasked to do. Totally the opposite. They're doing nothing different than almost any business will do

I don't know how anyone can be a professional musician and agree with that sentiment. Just because music is worthless to some people doesn't mean you have to agree with them, and play by their rules.

So fine....only the best, most professional bands, ever get to gig. The rest of us, that vast swathe of up and coming bands, or bands with a different view on life to the hardened pros, or musicians starting out on the road, or young musicians looking for exposure can go 'f*** themselves....right?? Because in your utopian world that's what would happen. You do realise that ?

If you're in a professional act and think that ~$600+ is a good slug of money for entertaining 6000 people... well, I don't know what to tell you.
$600 for an evenings work is decent money

And what the other bands got is not a gig. Sort of like working for McDonald's for 5 cents an hour in not a job. I don't know how you think you're ever going to earn a living in this business.

Of course it is (a gig). What are you talking about ?? Is it so hard to believe that not everyone is motivated by the idea of making a living out of playing music?....well, frankly, they're not...and that's a fact pal. A cold hard one.



Actually, you don't. Clearly the event promoters are total bottom-feeding scumbags who wouldn't get out of bed to p*** if they thought they could get away with it, and the bands are the rankest amateurs on the planet, and have no business seeking paying work. You have to maintain professional standards no matter what anyone else is doing.
not necessarily. Maybe they got a good band on for a relatively cheap amount. It's their job. In terms of the band....well, they'll have great fun I'm sure.

All with the utmost of respect to you and the OP by the way. I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with all of it.
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:24 PM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
When the number of gigs shrink, the pros want hobbyists to stop taking their gigs and stop inadvertently driving pay down while they try to pay rent and feed their bambinos.

Meanwhile many hobbyists just want to play out once in a while to bring some light and soul into their miserable lives after slogging it out with the automatons at work.

It's an example of conflict of interest brought about by scarcity. Two worthy causes - one gig.

I can't see a satisfactory answer. Maybe it's just as Sting said, when the world is running down you make the best of what's still around ...
That's a very astute point.

Maybe it is the pro's who need to adjust their demands, change their modus operandi, rather than the hobbyists?? We already have one pro saying that $600 is not good money for an evenings work. I think that would have a lot of people, certainly on my side of the pond, in unsigned bands, falling off their chair to be honest.

Although....I have to say that the venues and gigs which my merry band of brothers play do not pay articularly well (small, local venues), and would not therefore even begin to appeal to pro bands....certainly if they are looking for a $600 a gig start point. Soooooo I'd like to think that my lot are not treading on too many toes here...perhaps a different situation than the one the OP has described.
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:43 PM
MrPockets's Avatar
MrPockets MrPockets is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Scrilla VIlla
Posts: 600
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquadLeader View Post
not necessarily. Maybe they got a good band on for a relatively cheap amount. It's their job. In terms of the band....well, they'll have great fun I'm sure.
I think that OP isn't talking about how much fun the band will have. The OP is talking about how bands that low ball on price make the consumer of the band think that is how much music should cost. 66 pounds for a full band, really? A golf course I live on paid $2000 for a cover band to play, and they thought that price was a steel.

I guess it depends on the area to determine how much a band should be paid to play. People underselling themselves doesn't help the market.

Hopefully, this is a case of the planner not knowing any better. Considering the event, surely they could afford more.
__________________
Drum is fum
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-30-2013, 10:58 PM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPockets View Post
I think that OP isn't talking about how much fun the band will have. The OP is talking about how bands that low ball on price make the consumer of the band think that is how much music should cost. 66 pounds for a full band, really? A golf course I live on paid $2000 for a cover band to play, and they thought that price was a steel.

I guess it depends on the area to determine how much a band should be paid to play. People underselling themselves doesn't help the market.

Hopefully, this is a case of the planner not knowing any better. Considering the event, surely they could afford more.
I can see that and can fully understand the point.

And that cover band had better have been good :-)
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:25 PM
MrPockets's Avatar
MrPockets MrPockets is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Scrilla VIlla
Posts: 600
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquadLeader View Post
I can see that and can fully understand the point.

And that cover band had better have been good :-)
Sounded like everyone loved the band.
__________________
Drum is fum
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-30-2013, 11:51 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,284
Default Re: Rant!

This debate will always have people on each side. It's a situation that will never resolve unless they pass and enforce new laws. The only thing you can do is accept it and work around it. Each side of the debate is convinced they are right....and they are! So what do you do with that? There's no minimum anything it seems for people who hire bands. Whatever deal they can make is great. Anything goes, so low cost will almost always win out. It sucks but, well there it is.
__________________
I pay no attention whatever to anybody's praise or blame. I simply follow my own feelings
Mozart
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-31-2013, 12:15 AM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 841
Default Re: Rant!

I feel like this reflects the music industry as a whole right now. The people in positions of power know they have the power and you can either take the deal they offer you which is usually terrible) or leave it and go nowhere at all...

I've seen a few festivals pop up recently which are actually organised and funded by the bands themselves and made sure all the bands got a fair deal. Seems to parallel the DIY recording/internet distribution that's going on too.

Musicians have had enough and are going it alone. One day the power may shift because of this. But money will always talk and there's alway an idiot there waiting to take whatever they can get...
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-31-2013, 12:22 AM
poika's Avatar
poika poika is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 484
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot View Post

What's wrong with society when a DJ can be as entertaining as a band?
Is there a problem with a DJ being more entertaining than a band?.

Being able to play the guitar doesn't automatically put you in a higher category of performing than being able to spin records.
You can be very musical and creative in both of those things, or you can be downright bad.

Just like there is a difference between a band and a band, there's a difference between a DJ and a DJ.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-31-2013, 12:25 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,441
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
…and I dont know how you can be a pro and not agree that thats the reality out there, even if it might not apply to you, personally.
I understand that the economy for music is very screwed up right now, and it does apply to me personally.

Quote:
Sure, play by your own rules and play for your friends, admirers and for the love of music, and for nickles and dimes.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I'm talking about providing a professional service to people who want it, just like any other businessperson.

Quote:
Yes, live music is worthless to club owners/ event promoters and other business folk in general.

Its a commodity. Its not art that needs patronage, like what you & I might want to believe.
Art has nothing to do with it. It's a service. Everyone in the world knows that when they want professional service, they have to pay for it. Sometimes I have to educate people that that is what I'm offering, and they don't always hire me when they find out that I play by the same rules as everyone else in society. If they don't feel that is their loss, I don't care; they just need to be told no.

Quote:
To them, its footfalls. Just a means to fill a club, a venue, or a stadium.

...and the music business world has been sucking off this little perception mismatch, since forever.

You want to know why?

Because they know that deep down inside your heart…

way way down..

… its your achilles heel. That if they give you a stage, and and audience, and a chance to express yourself - because that is your oxygen, isnt it? -

you WILL do the gig. Practically for free. If youy don't, there's somebody else who will.
I take it by "you" you mean musicians in general, not me personally. Where that resembles anything like reality, in my end of the business, it's too much of a joke to be as sinister as you make it out to be. Like virtually everyone else today, I do take basically free gigs when the music will be good, and no one is likely to be making money; I absolutely do not take blatantly exploitive things like the event at hand, and I don't believe many of the people I know would, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquadLeader View Post
not necessarily. Maybe they got a good band on for a relatively cheap amount. It's their job. In terms of the band....well, they'll have great fun I'm sure.
Well, first, £50 does not even qualify as an amount of money on an event of this scale-- it's not relatively cheap, it's nothing at all. To serious people, the actual job is to arrange entertainment for 6000 paying guests, within a certain realistic budget. The only people who approach the job the way you describe-- just getting any four jerkoffs who kind of look like a band, and no price is too low-- are clueless amateurs, or total bottom-feeders. I admit there are a lot of them out there... :-P
__________________
Visit: Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-31-2013, 12:47 AM
Big Foot's Avatar
Big Foot Big Foot is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: QC
Posts: 739
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by poika View Post
Is there a problem with a DJ being more entertaining than a band?.

Being able to play the guitar doesn't automatically put you in a higher category of performing than being able to spin records.
You can be very musical and creative in both of those things, or you can be downright bad.

Just like there is a difference between a band and a band, there's a difference between a DJ and a DJ.
Those aren't the DJ's I'm talking about...mind you, I don't find someone spinning some else's work very entertaining anyway.

I'm talking about the clown who puts on a play list (usually corny 80's stuff) and has the mic in his hand all night, telling lame jokes, making people do conga lines or playing silly party games...
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:08 AM
poika's Avatar
poika poika is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 484
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot View Post
Those aren't the DJ's I'm talking about...mind you, I don't find someone spinning some else's work very entertaining anyway.

I'm talking about the clown who puts on a play list (usually corny 80's stuff) and has the mic in his hand all night, telling lame jokes, making people do conga lines or playing silly party games...
I get not liking the clown DJs...

But I'd take a mediocre DJ over a mediocre band, any day.

I gather you don't like to go out dancing? Very few live bands make you want to dance for hours.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:10 AM
SquadLeader's Avatar
SquadLeader SquadLeader is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Near Manchester, Great Britain
Posts: 749
Default Re: Rant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I Well, first, £50 does not even qualify as an amount of money on an event of this scale-- it's not relatively cheap, it's nothing at all. To serious people, the actual job is to arrange entertainment for 6000 paying guests, within a certain realistic budget. The only people who approach the job the way you describe-- just getting any four jerkoffs who kind of look like a band, and no price is too low-- are clueless amateurs, or total bottom-feeders. I admit there are a lot of them out there... :-P
OK....firstly I agree. £50 for that particular gig is nothing.

Let me tell you what my band would do....if we were offered a gig for £50 to play in front of 6,000 people we'd see it slightly differently than you. We'd see it as a gig for 6,000 people. 6,000 people will hear our music. They will like our music. They will buy our album when it is released in March/April next year. 10% of them may come to our future gigs. They might keep the flyers we will hand out....the drinks mats...the general advertising. There would be a big band stramash on whether to do the gig.....some of us would suggest the venue are 'taking the piss'....some of us would see it in a more strategic level....we'd come to a consensus probably to play the gig....more pros than cons.

The exposure to US is bigger than £50. That's worth a lot of money TO US.

And please....you should lay of the insults towards that band. You don't know them. You wouldn't call them 'four jerkoffs' if they were stood in front of you. So show some class. You talk of professionalism on the one hand, yet you completely disrespect fellow musicians without even having heard the standard of their music. That's disgraceful to be frank.

PS: We'd not get signed to a gig playing for 6,000 people as we're an originals band...but the principle remains valid.

I'll tell you something else. We played a 'four jerkoffs' gig six months or so back. The venue gave us expenses, £40. We probably put considerably more in the venues pockets as we have a half decent following. Another band played on the same set list. Young kids. they rehearse next to us in the studios in Ashton. We gave our £40 to them. They made £60 on the night as a result. Not a lot. But they were pleased. We were happy. We all have good jobs. We don't need the money.

We played a support slot for a major UK touring band not so long back. That band made over £5,000 from the gig. We did a great support slot for them. Received lots of positive feedback. Helped those guys with their equipment and their soundcheck. Christ we even offered to pick them some fish and chips up from the local chippy to save them having to traipse out to eat. Want me to tell you how much those pros gave to us for our 'help'?? You guess....you probably don't need me to tell. Could they have slipped us a hundred, or a couple hundred quid....well, possibly.

My point being....being a professional musician does not equate to 'class' or 'doing the right thing' and I'm finding, in this industry (in the UK) that it is often the crappy little four jerkoffs who show considerably more respect and class to their fellow musicians than 'the pros'.

You sound like someone who believes the world owes you a good living and the value of anyone who thinks differently doesn't seem to matter diddly fk to you...well guess what...the world isn't fking fair. The above example evidences that
__________________
I lost my bag at Newport Pagnell.....
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com