Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Dre, you should know that Madge is a scholar of archaic literature. 'Girl' refers to any child in Middle English. I thought this was common knowledge? Of course calling somebody a child when they are a learned scribe is offensive.


You mean we should know archaic literature, Middle English, or that Madge is an expert in both? Neither can be considered common knowledge on a drum site.

Though I'd agree use of 'girl' for a grown woman usually does not go over well.
 
I believe you might be a bit sensitive.

Sensitive to sexism in the same way as I'm sensitive to racism, for example.

I always feel like saying "If I have offended you, then you must misunderstand me." Anyone I dislike will absolutely know it.

However, I'll take this, and I apologise to anybody I've snapped at.

Until I see some sort of consensus that women world wide are prepared to agree upon Porter, then I'm just not gonna be swayed that it's a cause worth the grief or attention that it's gained here on DW.

A journey of a thousand miles, and all that!

But sometimes I've gotta wonder if efforts could be better focused. This is definitely one such instance. Sometimes, you've gotta pick your fight. Not all of 'em have equal impact.

This particular thread had nothing to do with the word "girl" until now, and to talk about it is to go off on a tangent which is worthy of a separate thread and could potentially run and run untiil DW collapsed under its weight. And I don't think any of us want that!
 
You mean we should know archaic literature, Middle English, or that Madge is an expert in both? Neither can be considered common knowledge on a drum site.

Though I'd agree use of 'girl' for a grown woman usually does not go over well.

I didn't call Madge a girl though, we were talking about Hannah Ford or the pretty French drummer, it was definitely a girl in my language.
 
You mean we should know archaic literature, Middle English, or that Madge is an expert in both? Neither can be considered common knowledge on a drum site.

Though I'd agree use of 'girl' for a grown woman usually does not go over well.

You're absolutely right that everybody should be familiar with the etymologies derived from Middle English!

I think your sarcasm detector might be a bit wonky mate.
 
I think if we're encouraging a discussion based around the concept of sexism, some lateral discussion on what it means and to whom, is not completely out of order either.

I didn't call Madge a girl though, we were talking about Hannah Ford or the pretty French drummer, it was definitely a girl in my language.

My take on the "girl" thing is that while relatively trivial in itself, it has the potential to be the tip of an iceberg.

It's an example of the casual everyday sexism that is so ubiquitous it's barely even noticeable.

But when it's pointed out to people, some (not all and maybe not even many) will say "Oh I didn't realise, but I do now", and that causes them to examine their perceptions and language a little more.

So the next time they use a word other than "girl", when "girl" might have been expected, it might cause their audience to wonder why they didn't use it, and to examine their own perceptions and language a little more.

This is subtle stuff but "insidious filtering" like this can work for positive ends as I have described. It works jolly well for negative ends, certainly. I admit that I'm often not very subtle, which fault probably does more harm than good.
 
Sorry Madge, looks like I deleted that last post while you were in the middle of replying to it. I'd had a couple of quiet ales after work and wasn't convinced it was reading the way I'd intended it to, so opted to get rid of it altogether.
 
Sorry Madge, looks like I deleted that last post while you were in the middle of replying to it. I'd had a couple of quiet ales after work and wasn't convinced it was reading the way I'd intended it to, so opted to get rid of it altogether.

You won't catch me casting the first stone, I can assure you ;)
 
I use girl in the singular in a completely different way to girls in the plural. "A night out with the girls" in no way has a derogatory aspect to it, whereas to use "girl drummers" as a collective description covering all age ranges, potentially has.
 
I use girl in the singular in a completely different way to girls in the plural. "A night out with the girls" in no way has a derogatory aspect to it, whereas to use "girl drummers" as a collective description covering all age ranges, potentially has.

You could argue that even using the term "Female drummer" Is not PC. Surely its just drummer? But, again, If there were two drummers and you picked one out as your favorite player, and were asked which one, Its much easier to say the guy or the female/woman, rather than... the dark haired one or the tall one or the one in the T shirt with the slightly longer sleeves than the other one.

Lets be realistic about this, some of us are male some are female, If PC gets to the point where its not acceptable to mention gender, In any situation, we have gone way too far.

Sexism has no place in society but we still need ways to describe an individual. I am bald, If I am described as such so I can be recognised in a group, so what? If someone in a passing car screams "F**k of baldy" at me in the street, for no reason, then that is a different matter. Its about context and intent.
 
I use girl in the singular in a completely different way to girls in the plural. "A night out with the girls" in no way has a derogatory aspect to it, whereas to use "girl drummers" as a collective description covering all age ranges, potentially has.

That's a good point, Andy.

Lets be realistic about this, some of us are male some are female, If PC gets to the point where its not acceptable to mention gender, In any situation, we have gone way too far.

Of course. But there is a question of relevance - "male nurse", "female drummer" - and of the terminology.

This thread began as a plea to everybody who read it, to try to be aware of sexist attitudes that sometimes prevail and to neither contribute to them nor condone them, whether explicitly or implicitly. That's pretty much it.
 
What I see is that women are still trying to define themselves in this modern age. Men have always been men, but women see equality as power. Women, it seems, more than anything, want to feel empowered in this world with men that they've fought so hard to contain.
 
Men have always been men, but women see equality as power. Women, it seems, more than anything, want to feel empowered in this world with men that they've fought so hard to contain.

I see it somewhat differently. I view equality as justice. I would also argue that it's men who have fought, and succeeded, to contain women.
 
That's a good point, Andy.



Of course. But there is a question of relevance - "male nurse", "female drummer" - and of the terminology.

This thread began as a plea to everybody who read it, to try to be aware of sexist attitudes that sometimes prevail and to neither contribute to them nor condone them, whether explicitly or implicitly. That's pretty much it.

I dont see what is wrong with "Male nurse". Nurses tended to be female, by and large, until fairly recently. Also, some women might not wish to be tended to by a male nurse so making the distinction seems reasonable.

And, as I also pointed out in my previous post, not sure If you are agreeing or not, It's all about relevance and context.
 
I see it somewhat differently. I view equality as justice. I would also argue that it's men who have fought, and succeeded, to contain women.
The perceptions between men and women truly are like Venus and Mars.
Interesting.....
........................
 
I'm another who hasn't really experienced sexism for many, many years - until playing in bands. In our professional and business life it isn't tolerated and there are repercussions for any dinosaurs who still persist in it. They can think what they like, can't change that, but they can't express it or act on it. It's been systematically stamped out by anti-discrimination legislation which in the UK started in the mid 70s.

In a band situation, no. There's no job security, or anti-discrimination policies, or formal complaints procedures. My experience is that yer average pub band is the last resting place of discrimination. Whaddya gonna do? You can't win: if you object you're just branded as "over sensitive", or bolshie, or lacking a sense of humour, and you just reinforce their existing attitudes. Typical bloody woman in fact.

I've recently left yet another band. I'm sick of it all, and totally disillusioned about the whole band thing. It's not that my experiences were all overtly nasty, I'm just fed up with being constantly reminded that I'm a woman first and a band member second. I've always been a bit of a tomboy, I can change a tyre and handle an electric drill. I was a lawyer (and a construction lawyer too, pretty much a male dominated field). Not a female lawyer. Just a lawyer. No-one made a comical fuss about what sort of mood I was in this evening, or asked if I was OK gigging two nights running because "it can be tiring". Or whether I was OK to drive an hour to the gig. Or complimented me on my punctuality because "women are always late".

In my last band I heard these comments about the female singer too. She left, surprise surprise. The male singer who replaced her, who couldn't play any instrument, couldn't even shake a tambourine in time, sent me a lovely email saying goodbye and "I think you're a good drummer". Kindly meant, but why does he think I need his validation?

I didn't expect this when I first joined a band. I've been in four, and had this with all of them in one form or another. I'm a grandmother and way beyond causing the sort of difficulties that I'd heard about with female band members -the sexual tension sort of difficulties. I just wanted to be one of the boys, doing the job I was engaged to do, but I've come to the conclusion it's just not possible. Because in a band situation there are none of the barriers to inappropriate comments or behaviour (even the kindly meant variety) that are no longer tolerated in the workplace.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I am still sad about leaving that band. But all that stuff just wore me down. The whole thing just depresses the life out of me.
 
I dont see what is wrong with "Male nurse". Nurses tended to be female, by and large, until fairly recently. Also, some women might not wish to be tended to by a male nurse so making the distinction seems reasonable.

And, as I also pointed out in my previous post, not sure If you are agreeing or not, It's all about relevance and context.

Absolutely agree 100% about relevance and context, but seeing it differently :)

Re "male nurse" - if we say "teacher", "lawyer" or "mortgage adviser", without any gender-specific prefix, why can't we just say "nurse"? Unless there is a particular reason why the person's gender may be relevant, and of course there are times when it may, I don't understand why it should be mentioned. We don't refer to ethnicity, colour, religion or sexual orientation as a matter of course.
 
Absolutely agree 100% about relevance and context, but seeing it differently :)

Re "male nurse" - if we say "teacher", "lawyer" or "mortgage adviser", without any gender-specific prefix, why can't we just say "nurse"? Unless there is a particular reason why the person's gender may be relevant, and of course there are times when it may, I don't understand why it should be mentioned. We don't refer to ethnicity, colour, religion or sexual orientation as a matter of course.

For the very reason I stated. A woman may not wish to be given a bed bath by a male nurse, so using the term gives the individual the choice, If the are that modest.
 
Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I am still sad about leaving that band. But all that stuff just wore me down. The whole thing just depresses the life out of me.

Daisy, I'm so sorry to hear this, but I do thank you for saying your piece. I can get a bit ranty (yes, really), so I, and others too I'm sure, greatly appreciate what you wrote, and the way you wrote it. I wish you hadn't needed to though.
 
For the very reason I stated. A woman may not wish to be given a bed bath by a male nurse, so using the term gives the individual the choice, If the are that modest.

Unless there is a particular reason why the person's gender may be relevant, and of course there are times when it may, I don't understand why it should be mentioned.

Let's not argue when we aren't disagreeing with each other!
 
Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I am still sad about leaving that band. But all that stuff just wore me down. The whole thing just depresses the life out of me.
Daisy, it really troubles me that you believe your experiences mean it's not possible to be in a band on equal terms, or there will always be unwelcome consideration paid in respect to your gender. Unfortunately, the likelihood is that you may be right, but it's not a given - far from it. There are players out there, many players actually, who really don't operate on the level you describe. They're findable, so please don't give up something you clearly otherwise enjoy.

Madge, just to throw my piece in on appropriate use of gender label. I'm an anti PC guy generally, especially when it's PC for PC's sake, but there are times when a gender prefix is completely warranted, even if it can be taken more than one way. Medical interface is one such example, but only when the gender of the nurse/doctor, etc could potentially be a reasonable choice issue for the patient. In some ways, & especially for intimate procedures, I think sexuality is relevant too, but getting that on the prefix list would be blocked by the very PC environment designed to promote equality.

Anyone who really knows me will realise that my anti PC views come from someone who is vehemently opposed to blind discrimination in all it's forms, & that includes both positive & negative discrimination.
 
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