What's with Zildjian hate??

I think we all have the same mind set here...YOU have to decide what YOU like. The only brand of cymbal I've played that I didn't have some sort of use for is Saluda...or suluda...or however it is spelled. I bought a splash and a crash online one day because it was a real good deal and I had money to blow...and blow it I did. I received them in the mail and played them for about 10 mins and to storage they went. Sounded like some really cheap trash can lids...but the trash can lids would have been a lot cheaper and probably closer to something I could use. But you live and learn.
 
Zildjian has the coolest looking logo, and that is the most important thing anyway!

Well, okay, maybe not, but I don't hold it against them.
 
There is something about newer A Zildjians that get some people worked up; or at least sets them on a quest for vintage Zildjians (as in mid '80s or earlier).

It could be that these cymbals are now old enough to have mellowed, or that Zildjian has changed something about how they make cymbals - like started making them thicker so now their sound is a little on the harsh side. Or both.

Also, they didn't used to put a coating on them to keep them nice looking like they do now, but it prevents them from picking up that patina that so many like so much, and who knows what it might do to the sound (Sabian and Paiste coat their cymbals, too).

But to counter that, A Customs were designed to capture that earlier pre-'80s A Zildjian vibe, but they only make them in brilliant finish, which a lot of drummers don't care for (me included). Also, the newer Armand line of A Zildjians are made much like the As from the '60s right down the the lack of protective coating, which makes them pick up that patina look much quicker. But not everyone likes that either (me among them).

Sabian has been very aggresive about marketing to a level comparable to DWs marketing effort, so it's no wonder they're everywhere. Not that they don't make good stuff, but I don't agree with the idea that the two (Z and S) are essentially the same.

Then there are the K series... not actually hand hammered as it turns out, but a hammering machine with an algorithm that randominzes the placement and force of the hammering to simulate a human. They've caught some flak over this, and Sabian is quick to point out that their cymbals are actually hand hammered - to the point where they spelled it out on their logos for years.

But to my ears, the Ks still sound great.

On the whole, I still prefer Zildjian, but I have (and have had) Sabians, too.
 
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I remember when I was 12 years old, and my dad had started his first Fulbright music residency in Romania. The biggest thing about those first few days was how he had brought over $10,000 worth of Zildjian cymbals, a gift to the Romanian musicians from Craige Zildjian herself. Those drummers were in tears when they saw that stuff. Most up to that time had been playing on pure junk, and just the sight of those cymbals elevated all of them. I just don't know how many companies would have done such a thing, and besides the obvious quality, it has to be why they continue to stay on top.

Wow, touching story Matt--that says quite a bit about the family and the company. Thanks for sharing.

best,

spleen
 
Lately its been pretty clear to me that a lot of people (at least online) hate (or just don't prefer) Zildjian and love other cymbal manufacturers, especially Sabian. Being a new drummer, i can't say i am familiar with all of these companies' sounds, but i heavily favor Sabian's products. It seems that no one really gives Zildjian a lot of praise from what i have seen (though the Ks are liked a lot). Isn't Zildjian the original company, or at least the main one? And what about not so popularized brands, are they any good? What are the truths in the world of cymbals? Let a new drummer learn.

I've probably got it all wrong, but hey!

Hmmm. Well, if you look at our cymbal forum, there seems to be more Sabian worship than any other brand. However, if you look at legendary drummers throughout the years, what do they play with? Zildjians and Paistes almost solely. So don't take what we say for gospel, please. Many of us are sponsored, and there are also factory reps, some blatant and some incognito that just want to tout their brands. Like Mike said, the A Zildjians are not what they used to be - I don't know why, but I suspect it's in the hammering methods. The Armand line sounds closer to the A Zildjians I grew up playing in the 1960s and 1970s. Many like the A Customs though, and they still do a fine job with the Ks, even though they are nothing like the old Istanbul Ks. That said, though, the old Ks were probably too dark for most popular music styles today. They may have been hand hammered from bell to edge, but they were pretty inaudible in a setting of 100 or 200 watt Marshall and Ampeg stacks shaking people's ribcages, so everything is relative. I admire Sabian, they have been an underdog and really fought hard to get where they are at - but I think sometimes they and their fervent supporters can get nasty when dealing with the competition. Their attack against Paiste a few years back calling B20 "the most musical alloy", while an indirect attack, came back later to slam their own APX line.
 
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I can't speak for the old Zildjian As vs new Zildjian As because until recently I've always had other brands (mostly Paiste 2002s). I've been looking for a new ride for months, going from shop to shop, and tried countless cymbals in that time.

The other week I finally found a 20" Zildjian A medium that ticked all my boxes - max size 20", good stick definition, tasty sound both glanced with stick shoulder and fully crashed, the right blend between sweetness and trashiness. It's the first cymbal I've heard in ages that's captured my heart.

Along the way I'd tried a number of other 20" A mediums that didn't do it for me, but this one is beautiful to my ear. That's what makes it so difficult to say that any particular Zil model is good, bad or indifferent. There are general characteristics with each model but to misquote The Life of Brian, "They are all individuals".
 
While it's been 10 years since I last worked at a drum shop, at every drum shop I have worked in, Zildjian was the clear #1 seller.
 
I am currently into Ufip. I have become fascinated with several of their lines. The Natural series is dark and mysterious. The Extatic series is an amazing mix of darkness and light and the rides and hats in particular are simply stunning. The Brilliant series has been sending shivers down my spine. The Class series has that classic A type bright sound but with a little more wash. And Ufip make incredible splash cymbals. The ears on my head have never heard better.

And their gongs, oh their gongs........

I am also very inclined toward Bosphorus Traditional and New Orleans lines. Gorgeous cymbals.

It is kind of cool today. Back in the day I had 2 real choices. Then 3 after the Z split. Now after so many years playing those brands I need a change. And it is here. I also favour Meinl Byzance cymbals. I have also been able to hear Istanbul and Agop and Turkish cymbals.

Choice is such a nice thing.
 
Personally i don't feel that any cymbal company is superior to another. Each company, weather it be Sabian, Zildjian, Paiste, Meinl etc..., make excellent cymbals. I've owned Zildjian A and A Custom's and now i play Sabian AAX. I didn't switch to jump on the Sabian band wagon. I switched because i felt the AAX line gave me sound that i was looking for and that's it.

I've read and heard people talk down on Zildjian because they haven't done anything creative in quiet some time to keep up with Sabian and a few of the other manufacturers. While i agree with that, it doesn't mean Zildjian is lacking in sales and quality. Zildjian makes some of the best cymbals in the world and i would recommend them to anybody.
 
Okay, it was bonus day at work for me yesterday (yay!) and after forking it over to the wife (who handles all the bills so that I'm always flat broke), she was kind enough to permit me to buy a new cymbal (double yay!).

So today I sneak out at lunch to make a trip to the drum shop, and hit another on the way home (neither a GC, btw) to find a good crash with some body (I've been thinking my cymbals are a little thinnish overall). I'm looking for either an 18" or a 19" B20 for 250 bucks or less. I hit a lot of cymbals and was mostly hitting Zildjian A, A Custom, and Sabian AA and AAX. But also some Ks and HH(X), too, just for kicks even though I couldn't afford one.

I've been biased against Sabian almost from the beginning, but have had to admit that on occasion they've bested my brand (Zildjian). Especially last go around when I was looking for a 20" crash and was forced to settle on a 20" AAX Xplosion since it sounded better than the A Custom and was more durable than the Paistes. But it still sounds a little dull to my ear...

After all that cymbal tasting, I got home a little frustrated because the Zildjians were so disappointing (except for a couple Ks). I hit a 19" A Medium Thin over and over wanting to like it really bad because it seemed like the perfect fit, only it wouldn't let me like it because it sounded brittle, harsh, and shrill (so did the 18" A Medium Thin). To be fair, I wasn't very thrilled with the Sabian Stage Crash, either, which was one of the other medium-thins I wanted to look at (they felt really heavy).

The AAX and HHX Xplosions were my clear favorite (both 18") with the HHX slightly edging out the AAX (slightly richer and higher pitch). So that's what I ended up with ($254 + the free 15" AAX Xplosion rebate - wow!). Honorable mention goes to the brilliant finish 18" Paragon that sounded really good. Not too heavy or clangy at all. It made my short list.

So much for my Zildjian preference for crash cymbals. My crash collection is now 2 Zildjians (an A Custom 19 & an A Custom Proj 18) and the two Sabians.
 
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I agree with you about the K's MikeM. The only Zild's that I like are K's.
I can't seem to warm up to any of the other Zild's for some reason.
I had a pair of early seventies New Beat hats that I loved! (I sold them years ago) I tried the latest New Beat hats and I wouldn't write home to Mama about them!
Anything that Zildjian makes with a capital K on it I like!
 
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I agree with you about the K's MikeM. The only Zild's that I like are K's.
I can't seem to warm up to any of the other Zild's for some reason.
I had a pair of early seventies New Beat hats that I loved! (I sold them years ago) I tried the latest New Beat hats and I wouldn't wright home to Mama about them!
Anything that Zildjian makes with a capital K on it I like!

Same here on the hats. I had about four pairs of New Beats in the 1970's (I cracked alot of hats back then, lol), and the new ones just don't do much for me, although the New Beats to me sound better than the A crashes, which just sound dead. I like my son's Paiste 2002 Sound Edges better than any of the recent New Beats. Now, the K Custom Hybrids are a different story. I sat down and played a set of those last year, and if I had the (over $400 tag as I recall) $, would have proudly walked out with them. I don't know what Zildjian did that changed the sound of As so much, but someone recently posted pictures of some 1960s Avedis Zs in the cymbal forum. You can see how the over-hammering was much different than on modern As. Also, all As up through the mid to late 1970s were formed by the Quincy Drop Hammer. Everything after then was pressed. I suppose that makes a difference as well.
 
Same here on the hats. I had about four pairs of New Beats in the 1970's (I cracked alot of hats back then, lol), and the new ones just don't do much for me, although the New Beats to me sound better than the A crashes, which just sound dead. I like my son's Paiste 2002 Sound Edges better than any of the recent New Beats. Now, the K Custom Hybrids are a different story. I sat down and played a set of those last year, and if I had the (over $400 tag as I recall) $, would have proudly walked out with them. I don't know what Zildjian did that changed the sound of As so much, but someone recently posted pictures of some 1960s Avedis Zs in the cymbal forum. You can see how the over-hammering was much different than on modern As. Also, all As up through the mid to late 1970s were formed by the Quincy Drop Hammer. Everything after then was pressed. I suppose that makes a difference as well.
I really miss my 15 inch 2oo2 sound edge hats.
I also really like my 13 1/4 inch K Hybrid hats. I have the K Hybrid crashes in 17, 19, and 11 inch also. Love em!
I got my Hybrid hats used for about half price of new.
 
I really miss my 15 inch 2oo2 sound edge hats.
I also really like my 13 1/4 inch K Hybrid hats. I have the K Hybrid crashes in 17, 19, and 11 inch also. Love em!
I got my Hybrid hats used for about half price of new.

15" Paiste Signature Sound Edges are also absolutely awesome. I commend Paiste on the 2002 and Giant Beat series. They made a good stab at maintaining the vintage sound. I have yet to play any K Custom crashes, but I sure like the sound samples on Zildjian's website. I really am impressed with where Zildjian has gone with their Ks. The old Kerope Istanbul Ks were beautiful sounding cymbals, just too dark and thin for the type of music I typically play. The new Ks, while not following the old tradition, have really branched off into some sounds that fit well into modern music, and have surpassed the As in that regard, IMO.
 
The K Custom Hybrid rides sound a great deal like my Paiste 2oo2 rides. Slightly dryer! I have the 2oo2's in both 20 and 22 inch so I didn't buy the Hybrid rides.
 
Because the only good letters in the Zildjian alphabet are A and K.

The only thing I myself would ever truly trust Zildjian with are hi-hats and maybe crashes. My experience with Zildjian crashes was okay, but every ride I've heard from Zildjian just wasn't quite what I'd like. Hats, like I said, are a different story.

ZBT is generally the lower-level line I'd suggest from Zildjian. ZXT and ZHT shouldn't even be considered.
 
really ZBTs are the worst of the lines. if any ZHT should be put forward. i do actually really like thier 16" china
 
ZBT is generally the lower-level line I'd suggest from Zildjian. ZXT and ZHT shouldn't even be considered.
Every cymbal manufacturer makes entry level pies. My vantage point on entry level cymbals is that they only exist because parents of a beginner go to the store and they buy a $500 entry level kit for their child. You can't sell them a cymbal pack that cost more than the kit!
I see more and more music stores flogging the better sounding Chinese Wuhan cymbals to parents with entry level kits.
These cymbals are actually playable as compared to the major manufacturers entry level choices.
I think that the day should come when the big cymbal guys drop the cheap stamped out entry level pies.
They should simply produce something similar to Wuhan.
 
Allow me to amend what I said, I would recommend ZBT Plus. I own the rock weight hi-hats and they sound more than okay.

Yes Bob, it's interesting how Wuhan can produce such a good sound with that price. I guess that's China for you. If Zildjian could come up with a consistently good low-level line, then I think their overall credibility would go way up. They're a big name, so a lot of beginners go directly for their products.
 
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