Do you use moeller for back beats?

Duck Tape

Platinum Member
Some will remember me posting this video in search of some technique advice.

Well to cut a long story short, Dave Weckl watched me play at drum camp and he said I don't whip with my left hand. So now that I'm home and practicing again I'm trying to make it happen, it's so unnatural to me.

I do know how to whip my left hand if it's an accented pattern but individual hits are something I'd never tried.

Did this occur to everyone else naturally or are there others like me out there? I don't know how to practice it other than to watch myself in the mirror.
 
I play trad grip so the heavy accents require a whip to get a little more volume. After a while they have just become habit. When I play rock or something with a heavy back beat I feel my left arm doing that whip motion for every backbeat.

Tried to find a good video example but I gave up...
 
Dave is right!!
I definitely use Moeller with backbeats. It's a very natural motion, so you might want to address your grip, if the motion isn't feeling right. It looks like you're grip is thumb and first finger - try holding the stick with the back three fingers, extending your first finger forward - this will move the fulcrum more to the middle finger. This should help maintain a loose grip (I'm not saying your grip isn't loose) but it will also help with impact from the hits on the snare.

You might want to back up and get a feel with the Freestroke - If you start with full strokes (90º) with just the wrist, you'll get a good stretch and get those wrists nice and loose. From there, you can start getting a feel for Moeller.
 
If it needs to be loud and popping, then yes. If it needs to be a bit lower in the sound-scape, then no.
 
dre, I think that if you you have trouble with one strike with moeller whip, multiple bounces or accents will be problematic too. At least up to a certain tempo where control and looseness comes into play.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Sticking_patterns.html?id=uktDabXaDqMC

This is a great book, as is Technique patterns ..helped me tremendously, especially developing equal hands, staying tension-free and practicing whipping motion,

The main thing for me was sitting there and practicing the motions of "moeller whip" very slowly, for hours and hours a day, for months. Through exercises and snare drum pieces, mostly. Very deliberately. Then reducing the motions as the years went by and tempos increase.
 
In my experience, Moeller takes quite a while to develop and requires a lot of slow motion practice, preferably using a mirror. But you have to know what you're aiming to be able to do. The Moeller is wonderful for backbeats - it's one of the first things I show my students if I'm intending to teach them Moeller, so they can see that it isn't just some rudimental thing alone.
 
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I rely more on controlled rimshots to get the volume I want. If I need more then I go to Moeller. I prefer economy of motion wherever possible.

It really depends on your technique and choices if you choose to use Moeller or not. Weckyl said you weren't whipping your hand. Did he say that because he thought your backbeat wasn't loud enough? If so, as you know, using the rim for volume saves a ton of energy. Plus I think a snare backbeat generally sounds better tone-wise with a little rim. Plus you can vary where on the stick you hit the rim, resulting in a myriad of different tones from the drum. A center snare hit with no rim doesn't vary in timbre all that much. Certain songs don't get any rim on purpose, but most do.

The reason you whip is for volume, and there's an easier way to get volume is all I'm saying. Do you play trad?

Not saying don't learn the whip. Learn the whip for sure.
 
I just tried it now without any whipping motion; it felt very strange! Sort of lacking in energy. So definitely yes I do use it.
 
If you are playing the hi hat and snare and you are playing with your hands (sticks) crossing each other; then you will have to whip both hands.

Is this correct? Or am I confused here?

How can you whip your left hand while playing more softly on the hi hat with your right?

.
 
It is a fairly small motion .. though often the right hand is whipping with it on some grooves (it seems fairly natural to use a moeller type motion on the hi-hat; I don't think I've ever seen anyone not use it, it seems to develop fairly naturally).
I kinda like the feeling of both the left and right hand whipping at the same time; it seems to make it all feel a bit more solid and together. While "winding up" it is nice to feel the weight in the hands if that makes sense.
 
If you are playing the hi hat and snare and you are playing with your hands (sticks) crossing each other; then you will have to whip both hands.

Is this correct? Or am I confused here?

How can you whip your left hand while playing more softly on the hi hat with your right?

.

For quieter dynamics, It's a Low Moeller stroke - there are many different heights - from just a tiny flick of your wrist, to completely over your head... It's great for pulling out a quick accent that follows a ghost note, and as mentioned it's great on the hihat. Check out Gadsen playing with Bill Withers - those 16th note hihat parts are great to play with a low Moeller stroke...

For big accents on the snare - some guys are playing open handed - or you can do like Billy Ward does - German grip with the hihat hand, forming more of a right angle with your elbow opens up your chest and creates more space for your backbeat hand. He gets a great whip going - nice volume and that extra motion fills in the time...
 
Dave is a world class player. with some of the most natural and developed technique in the business. The whip is an essential part of playing, at some point you wont be able to certain things without and the sooner you work on it the better.

Can you play a back beat without one, well yes of course you can, you are already doing that. The thing about using whips is that they feel great once you have them down, more power, less energy. They also tie in with fast ghost note playing. Moller is a system of accents and rebounds. You cant play a super fast paradiddle without using them. So for example you wanted to learn some up tempo drum and bass groove, like Jo Jo Mayer would play, no chance with out whips.

So what I'm saying is its not just about backbeats, its about developing a technique that allows you expansion in the future (accents and rebounds). Every time you whip that back beat, and this is very important, you should use a control stoke and stop it about 1inch above the head even if you are not playing a ghost, so its there when you need to play a ghost. Watch any world class player playing groove based music and you will see what I mean.

Anika is using a ton of whips, here, what I like about here technique is that it is all very low and economical. Watch her technique on the ride, great stuff!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf201HxvvK0

Some great shots of the master at work. Note his left hand staying down when he is playng those backbeats at the start. Also in his right hand pulsing those accents on the hi hat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-Ptb_BmD-0
 
To the snare/hi-hat question, you can also use pull-offs ( I guess it would be called) and make for a more linear oriented approach.
 
The thing that I needed to realize most of all is that I don't move my left arm! I only use wrist and fingers.

Bill Bachman - thanks for posting that video, you're a legend, I might hit you up for a lesson someday.
 
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Would Moeller on the backbeats take the place of using rim shots? I realize rim shots have a different tone, and most use them to cut through the PA, but wouldn't Moeller be just as effective?
 
Thanks for the compliment Dre25!

Rimshot or not, I believe it's better to whip to the backbeat. There's less interaction with/manipulation of the stick: the more nature and the less of you the more groove, flow, consistency, endurance and natural grease.

And, I prefer my backbeats of the rim-shotted variety, even at lower dynamics.
 
Would Moeller on the backbeats take the place of using rim shots? I realize rim shots have a different tone, and most use them to cut through the PA, but wouldn't Moeller be just as effective?

No, the drum sound is tonally different when hitting the rim and the head together. You can moeller whip without hitting the rim of course, but it doesn't pop the same way
 
Any suggestions on how I can get my left arm happening?

Play without wrists and fingers for a bit?
 
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