Music and humanness

With Herbie especially I look at it more like the difference between an elaborate drawing and a simplified drawing (or even this) by Picasso. His identity (and genius) comes through regardless of the amount of detail he gives you, or of the crudity of the instrument.

I like those examples. Now it seems we're getting more of this.

mediocrefunkybeat said:
It is not the tool that the player/composer uses, it is much more the character that shows regardless of instrument.

I have no issue with e-music other than it doesn't suit my tastes as much as analogue does, which doesn't matter. Just that the trends are clear and I'm curious to see how far it goes - if it will go all the way or if people will start demanding more humanity in their music ... and if that happens, whether it would be a brief reactionary thing or a true swing.

When it comes to something to beef about, the level of control of bean counters over music scene since the 80s bugs me. The trend towards e-instruments is the natural order of things but the soulless cynicism of the industry is a distortion analogous to the political influence of Murdoch's spin masquerading as news or Krispy Kreme Donuts being presented as food while having more attributes akin to drugs and poisons.

While we have cycles, what bothers me is that the parasitic industry is shaping people's musical palettes so they won't be able to sense subtlety or nuance in music, which means they will continue to be be consumers of featureless pap that's cheap for music factories to create.
 
then again...sometimes when I'm driving, I'll hear some song from the mid- 80's, that was a huge hit, and it's all drum machine. keyboards, and I just cringe. I remember back in those days, an mtv v.j saying..." in 5 years, there will be no such thing as guitars, and drums any more, it will al be keyboards" thank God he was wrong.
 
Yes, absolutely. A lot of older "techno" art (where they tried to hide the human hand)- "Billie Jean", Mondrian, etc- actually seems pretty warm compared to this current computer-created/perfected thing.

Even Kraftwerk ... I guess we're getting better at hiding the human hand :) At some stage we'll have computer-composed music, played by machines and "sung" by a voice generator. We already have those elements, just not put together in a workable way yet. All that will be left of humanity will be decisions.

mxo721 said:
I remember back in those days, an mtv v.j saying..." in 5 years, there will be no such thing as guitars, and drums any more, it will al be keyboards" thank God he was wrong.

A brief revivalist phase IMO. Longer term trends don't tend to move in a linear way, just as improvement on drums doesn't happen without occasional backward steps. But yes, the 80s zeitgeist was arguably as radically powerful as the 60s (you can always tell radical times by how silly the clothes appear in hindsight :) and what the 80s set in motion is very much still being heard today ... that was when the bean counters gained total control.
 
From Andy's triggers thread:



I feel roughly the same and, like Larry, I confess to old fartdom. In fact, I think this dehumanising of music has been going for a long time, starting with the electrification of instruments in my lifetime. Bob Dylan and Miles both got in trouble for moving away from the warmth of acoustic instruments.

During the 70s and 80s a lot of music started sounding more perfect/consistent and less organic.

Now people gather in clubs to dance to recorded music performed by machines (with a human driver, admittedly ) and many of them take E's and speed to keep up with the machines that never tire, never have breaks, never stop ... when I was young that idea would have seemed like sci fi. You'd have the homely good guys under threat from the wicked robot doof doof people etc ... Hayden Christensen and Angelina Jolie to play the main robot person villain and his girlfriend :)

Seriously ... this trend looks like continuing. How far do you think it will go? 100% robot music in the mainstream? (accepting that there will always be renegades who prefer organic music).

Or will there be a rebellion against mechanised pop art? Matt once used the term "artificial music-like product" to describe musak and it seems to describe a fair bit of music in the Top 40 today too. Will people eventually say "enough is enough!" and embrace organic humanness again or are we evolving into cyborgs?

Big topic, eh? :)

For almost all of human history, the only way to hear music was to make it yourself or have others make it in front of you. If understand you correctly, the "dehumanizing" of music could have started when people developed recording technology in the 1870s.

I think that is all poppycock, though. People make music, therefore it is a human creation. Some of it is acoustic and some of it digital, but it is no more or less human in my view.
 
For almost all of human history, the only way to hear music was to make it yourself or have others make it in front of you. If understand you correctly, the "dehumanizing" of music could have started when people developed recording technology in the 1870s.

I think that is all poppycock, though. People make music, therefore it is a human creation. Some of it is acoustic and some of it digital, but it is no more or less human in my view.

Agree with the first paragraph but not the second, which I think is nitpicky. Obviously there are human decisions behind all music, even auto-programmed music by a program that uses algorithms based on the ideas of great composers.

If I use terms like "hand-made" and "machine-made", would that help? You probably find my use of "dehumanisation" too evocative but I guess that shows how disappointed I am that hand crafted music is being increasingly replaced by cheap manufactured stuff. I expect that you prefer your magnificent hand-crafted drum set to a cheapo, slapdash, factory-made kit. Same deal.

It's not just about mechanisation and it's not just about the skills and intent of the creator, but a combo of those things. Mechanisation can be used creatively or it can be used as a cheap shortcut. I guess replacing creativity with cheap shortcuts to make a buck is a very human trait too, but maybe not one of our best. Do you prefer Edwardian and art deco architecture or big sterile boxes?

It's like the difference between old style chicken farming, where the animals cluck around in the yard pecking grains before slaughter and new agribusiness methods where the chickens exist (it's not living) in tiny cages and are fed hormone-laced formula food for a few weeks before being "processed". Ethics aside, the former not only tastes better but it's better for you.

Just as these two pieces - each based on ostinato lines - differ hugely in regard to depth and richness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpKVr3iBdkU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPorrmjWHM

It's the difference between a hearty home cooked meal and a Big Mac.

As I write this, it occurs to me that I'm advocating expensive, elitist stuff over affordable products for the masses. Damned if I know what's right and what's not any more ...
 
You could make the argument that once we started writing music down, it became mechanized as opposed to spontaneous. It's been down hill since the cave men and woman were banging on rocks. But for thousands of years, Songstresses and Bards kept thousands of songs in their memories to recreate at any given moment.

What about something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqRsl8Vm-Q

More Tullish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XAPosjkbfQ&feature=related

I know this is too poppy for your avant-garde tastes, Pol. But a lot of the Scandanavian music can be quite lyrical, and it is a nice balance of electronic and acoustic instruments.
 
Ken, not sure whether I have "avante gard tastes" but you're right, it's not my music :) I see your point, though and I enjoy acoustic/electric mixes.

You could make the argument that once we started writing music down, it became mechanized as opposed to spontaneous. It's been down hill since the cave men and woman were banging on rocks. But for thousands of years, Songstresses and Bards kept thousands of songs in their memories to recreate at any given moment.

Yep, it's all roughly the same process. Just as some of those who loved Miles's KOB were peeved by BB, my tastes are as much subject to the music styles of my youth as anyone else. The changes are not necessarily good or bad as such, although I do think with each advance things are both gained and lost, and it's not such a bad idea to be aware of of what's been lost.
 
I knew you wouldn't like that.

How do they market American music in Oz? In Europe it is called Americana, which usually refers to folk rock, everything from Dylan and the Band, the Byrds to The Dead, Sheryl Crowe, Nickle Creek, Gnarles Barley or Bare Naked Ladies. It can also include any kind of roots music, Motown, Stax, Blues even Jazz. It's generally acoustic.

Here is a songwriter from NY

Vienna Teng She has a classical background:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDtFrE-K4is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8nypWKa_aU

and another songwriter I enjoy Ray Lamontagne. He wrote the lyric below in my signature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAJM0Jgir4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LWpw3CMCEg

Gotta add this one. It's called Meg White:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HXsdodYvp8&feature=channel

any of this do it for ya.:)
 
I am kind of curious after reading a few posts in this thread if anyone knows what the sales of instruments themselves are like, anyone that owns or knows someone that owns a music store, are they going up or down as electronic music is getting more popular.
 
Ken, still not really my thang but I quite enjoyed it. Thanks for trying :) I don't want to damn it with faint praise because it's all good music, I guess just a bit normal for me ... I realise now that the term you were looking for was "quirky". My own bands over the years have rarely been quirky enough for me either. C'est la vie.

The first Vienna track built beautifully and the Meg White lyrics were cute ...

Playing those drums is hard to do, it's true
Nobody plays them quite like you do.


Frosty, they say Roland are the best selling drums, but many kits would be just for home. If we're counting units then we ought to take into account all the hobby music that's being made with cracked / copied software. Tricky.
 
Acoustic instruments (including the human voice) have a history as long and as richly detailed as that of the human race. The digital world is less than one hundred years old. Obviously digital is new and exciting at the moment but that doesn't mean it's taken over, or even that it will. It's a new toy that has not lost its novelty just yet. Once that wears off we'll see something more balanced, like the way people calmed down with their use of digital reverb on records after a few years.

If the world went from the Analog age to the Digital age...imagine the Quantum age.
 
Ken, still not really my thang but I quite enjoyed it. Thanks for trying :) I don't want to damn it with faint praise because it's all good music, I guess just a bit normal for me ... I realise now that the term you were looking for was "quirky". My own bands over the years have rarely been quirky enough for me either. C'est la vie.

The first Vienna track built beautifully and the Meg White lyrics were cute ...

Playing those drums is hard to do, it's true
Nobody plays them quite like you do.


Frosty, they say Roland are the best selling drums, but many kits would be just for home. If we're counting units then we ought to take into account all the hobby music that's being made with cracked / copied software. Tricky.

I though you might like the quirky drumming on the Teng stuff. there is one song where he plays a bass, snare and bell set strapped across his lap.

The Lamontagne song For the Summer, I think you should give it another listen. It deals so cleverly with alienation. And what I like about it is the nature imagery that he's trying to get back to. He's alone and without his lady, out on the road, and he's coming home. But he has to ask because he's so alienated from her as well. It's the artist paradox, how living for your passion alienates you from everything around you, the road alienates you from your home, your love, and you are alienated from the road because its not the road home. And the drums I think express that so well. Talk about a drummer who can express melancholy in a song.
 
I am a bit curious after reading some posts on this topic if anyone knows what the sales of the instruments themselves are similar, any person who owns or knows someone who owns a music store, go-up or down as electronic music is increasingly popular.

Interesting question.

Based on having been in and out of the MI business over the last 20 some odd years,

In the last few years, we have seen many, many music stores go out of business, and there have been massive layoffs at nearly every manufacturer and retailers. However, that is more than likely a sign of the economy rather than electronic music, as nearly every business, music or not, has had lay offs and closures.

What we have seen over the last ten or so years is a lot more brands have entered the drum market, and many brand have expanded their number of lines. There are simply far more different drums being made now than ever before. Some may say that is tempered by the fact many of these "different" drum brands all are made in the same set of factories. But the point being is that enough different business entities see the MI market as big enough to want to get in and get their slice of the pie. In cymbals, it seems like the number of brands have quadrupled in the last few years.

Although if that means anything or not in regard to electronic music is somewhat ambiguous, given a vast majority of instruments are sold to people who have no intention of of forming a band and making a music career.

What I am curiously about is if there is an increase in guitar and drum sales, if that is offset by a decrease in sales of violins, horns and such, or not. I do recall last year at NAMM I noticed I had not seen one single violin all day.

The only difference I can say, is back when I worked at Guitar Center in the 1800's, we did not sell DJ gear, nor was there any real concept of DJ gear, other than selling a PA to people who did weddings. Now, every GC, and every music store, has a dedicated DJ section, to the point DJ's are on par with drummers and guitarists from a sales point of view.
 
The Lamontagne song For the Summer, I think you should give it another listen. It deals so cleverly with alienation. And what I like about it is the nature imagery that he's trying to get back to. He's alone and without his lady, out on the road, and he's coming home. But he has to ask because he's so alienated from her as well. It's the artist paradox, how living for your passion alienates you from everything around you, the road alienates you from your home, your love, and you are alienated from the road because its not the road home. And the drums I think express that so well. Talk about a drummer who can express melancholy in a song.

Ken, I had trouble with Ray's diction in the summer song, my concentration not being the best. I Googled the lyrics. The question was an interesting touch, though. You get the impression that he's in the dog house.

I'm not so deep, alas. An example of an acoustic/electric mix that does it for me - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CST7XOxw4Dk ... I can't make out her words either but there are enough musical baubles to keep me engaged :)
 
DED, you do realise you're chatting with a spammer with his buy com coupon link in his sig :)

IWhat I am curiously about is if there is an increase in guitar and drum sales, if that is offset by a decrease in sales of violins, horns and such, or not. I do recall last year at NAMM I noticed I had not seen one single violin all day.

The only difference I can say, is back when I worked at Guitar Center in the 1800's, we did not sell DJ gear, nor was there any real concept of DJ gear, other than selling a PA to people who did weddings. Now, every GC, and every music store, has a dedicated DJ section, to the point DJ's are on par with drummers and guitarists from a sales point of view.

In the 1800's? And I thought I was old! Back then, I expect GC's predecessor would have been doing great business with violins, cellos, trumpets etc :) Actually, there are always violins in the local pawn shops these days.

Funny thing with DJs, that audiences found it desirable to employ a middleman to mediate between them and artists. Was it that the artists didn't adapt to new requirements from many audiences - to just keep them dancing and skip the solos, ballads and arty stuff? There's always been that tension between musician and audience - entertaining fluff vs art. All you needed to break the impasse was find musicians who didn't care - who weren't "self indulgent wankers" - and we had the rise of session players, sequencers and punks.

Disco really jammed into that fault line. Once you took away the band it wasn't a big deal to take away musicians from the music-making process. Milli Vanilli - those pioneers of artificiality - are almost organic by comparison :)
 
I haven't been part of the discussion up until this point and there has been a lot of ground covered... so sorry for the following, coming out of left field, I offer the following, for what it's worth.

There is a feeling I get, an "emotion", if you will, when I hear F and C resolve with G.

Similarly, the dissonance of an Am chord after a C and a G.

Regardless of the music being created digitally, or organically, the way notes / chords interact with each other, imo, create "feeling". I associate this "feeling" with, as mentioned previously, emotion, which is pretty human.

It's not hard to play an instrument without feeling, likewise, it's easy to program without feeling - it's all in what you put into it.
 
DED, you do realise you're chatting with a spammer with his buy com coupon link in his sig :)
Yes, I did. But still, I thought it was an interesting point, and the answer kept going through my head for a good hour of what I would say if it were a real poster. So I said, screw it, I'm posting it anyway.


. Milli Vanilli - those pioneers of artificiality - are almost organic by comparison :)
Yes, at least they employed studio musicians! Now a days, you don't even need to do that.
 
The music is both playing at 70dB and 0dB, depending on whether you're a householder or a neighbour?

Kind of funny but they can already do that, focus sound waves so that you can hear it sitting down on one chair, but not the one next to it. Naturally given all the implications of that technology in modern day society, such as a table at a pub where you can hear the t.v and one where you can't, it is instead getting used by the military to non-lethally incapacitate insurgents.
 
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