Gavin Harrison here!

Hi XboxIsAGodToMe,

Hey Gavin, just curious, what metronome would you suggest for being able to program odd timed clicks. Also, is there a metronome that has different sounds for the click?

As Chris Edwards said - if you need really fancy clicks then a computer is your best bet. If you have a few time signatures 5/8 7/8 11/8 etc. all in the same song then I would be inclined to just listen to an 1/8 note click as it will go through all those odd times. Sometimes when a song changes from 3/4 to 6/8 I might just leave the click playing quarter note woodblocks and 8th note cabasas and think of it as a simple polyrhythm to the 6/8. I used a Boss DR-660 for many years and had no problems with it generating odd time signatures. I think of the click as something that's there to help keep me in strict tempo - not something that's going to help me play odd time signatures.

Hi K.Howden,

1) I've heard the phrase "Overriding" used quite but I'm slightly unsure what it means, is it the term used to describe Grooves where you're switching between the Ride Bell and the Bow of the Ride every quaver or crochet? I use this method quite alot but was unsure of the term to summise this method.

No, what I mean by 'overriding' is when you play (for instance) quarter notes on the cymbal whilst your bass drum and snare drum are playing in an odd time signature (like 7/8 for example). That way the bell of the ride will be effectively 'on the beat' in the first bar of 7 and then 'off the beat' in the second bar of 7.

like this..

7:8 override.png

If you're interested to know more about this kind of rhythmic device - there's lot's of examples of 'overriding' on my DVD Rhythmic Horizons

Ghost Notes and that its just somthing that develops over time, would you agree with this or is there a method that could help him out with this?

I would agree that they do get better over time. They are also the first things to fall apart when you're nervous!!

cheers
Gavin
 
Hey Gavin, just curious, what metronome would you suggest for being able to program odd timed clicks. Also, is there a metronome that has different sounds for the click? I currently use a VERY basic quartz metronome, and it's sometimes too hard to hear the click (and not in the good way of being on time :). Any input would be appreciated! Thanks!
Josh

Along with the advice others have given, I would point you to Gavin's excellent Sound on Sound article on programming clicks, in case you haven't seen it:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug03/articles/clicktracks.htm

I used a DR-660 for practicing to a click for many years, and as Gavin points out, while you can't change time signatures or tempos on the fly with this type of drum machine, by adapting a single, regular click pattern to a variety of time signature changes throughout a song, you can teach yourself a lot about polyrhythms and rhythmic structure.

I also think this approach helps keep a consistent feel throughout a song, rather than having the drummer shift through a billion different time signature and tempo changes.

For example, I recorded the first song on this page (www.myspace.com/demonstruction) to a 4/4 click in one tempo (I think it was around 155 bpm). The verses are in 8/8, but the choruses and middle eight are in 6/8. So for those 6/8 parts I just let the click make a simple 6 over 8 polyrhythm.

*disclaimer: these drum tracks were recorded in about four hours, they ended up sounding pretty terrible (and they're buried in the mix anyway), and some of the guys on the track (including myself) were pretty studio inexperienced*
 
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Actually, on the topic of tempos/clicks, I have been using a Linux-native DAW called Ardour for my pre-production recordings, and this program uses a different conception of bpm than most other recording programs. Essentially, the time signature denominator doesn't change the pace of the click, it only changes the length of the measure. In other words, if I wanted to change from 4/4 to 4/8, I would simply have to double the bpm in 4/4, because changing the denominator to 8 doesn't change the click to eighth notes.

Anyway, doubling the bpm seems like kind of an imperfect solution to this problem to me, so I wondered if Gavin or any other people on here could help me make sense of the developer's explanation, quoted from the program's official support forum:

"ardour’s conception of bar|beat time is slightly different from other DAWs and will likely change in the future. meter is handled in the standard way: a meter of 7/8 is taken to mean 7 beats, each 1/8 note in length. however, the tempo specifies how many of the denominator note lengths there are per minute *NOT* how many 1/4 notes there are per minute. thus, if you change only the meter, and leave the tempo at, say, 120bpm, you end up with the same click rate - it used to be 120 1/4 notes per minute, now its 120 1/8th notes per minute. thats because ardour is interpreting the “b” in bpm to mean “beat” and not quarter/crotchet.

as i mentioned, we may modify this in a future version. i still consider the standard handling of this to be wrong, but it does have the force of convention standing behind it."


It's an interesting discussion of the concept of time and meter, nonetheless:

http://www.ardour.org/node/1433

Thanks, anyone who can help...
 
Thanks everyone! I don't necessarily need the click for odd-times (even though it didn't seem that way) but more towards a different sound. For instance, when the click sounds like a cowbell, it seems easier to hear to me. It's hard to describe, and now it just sounds like I'm making up excuses...Guess I'll just have to stick with the old quartz guy. Thanks to everyone, including Gavin, who responded to my question. I appreciate it!
 
Hi NeuroAxis,

Anyway, doubling the bpm seems like kind of an imperfect solution to this problem to me, so I wondered if Gavin or any other people on here could help me make sense of the developer's explanation, quoted from the program's official support forum:

I think the developer is perhaps not a musician and taking the whole bpm thing too literally. There's many (especially 'prog') arrangements that have all kids of time signatures - 4/4 7/8 3/16 etc and it would be a nightmare to have to go in and make double or quadruple tempo changes just to accommodate the software.
Rhythmic notation is based on a bar of 4/4. A 16th note is quite literally one 1/16 of a bar of 4/4. So what happens when you play a 1/16 in a bar of 5/8? It's not literally a 1/16 of that bar length. The musician understands that the 1/16 is in reference to 4/4 and there can only be 10 of them in a bar of 5/8.
The reason all the other DAW's use quarter notes as the implied beat for bpm - is that it works logically, is initially based on 4/4 - and most musicians understand what that means.
Just out of interest - what made you pick Ardour as your sequencing software?

cheers
Gavin
 
Hi NeuroAxis,

I think the developer is perhaps not a musician and taking the whole bpm thing too literally. There's many (especially 'prog') arrangements that have all kids of time signatures - 4/4 7/8 3/16 etc and it would be a nightmare to have to go in and make double or quadruple tempo changes just to accommodate the software.
Rhythmic notation is based on a bar of 4/4. A 16th note is quite literally one 1/16 of a bar of 4/4. So what happens when you play a 1/16 in a bar of 5/8? It's not literally a 1/16 of that bar length. The musician understands that the 1/16 is in reference to 4/4 and there can only be 10 of them in a bar of 5/8.
The reason all the other DAW's use quarter notes as the implied beat for bpm - is that it works logically, is initially based on 4/4 - and most musicians understand what that means.
Just out of interest - what made you pick Ardour as your sequencing software?

cheers
Gavin

Thanks for breaking this down; I think I kind of get it now. The next release apparently will feature a drop-down menu that will let you specify what's meant by the b in bpm.

Right around the time I started to get interested in recording I got a laptop that was loaded with Debian Linux. Ardour is pretty much the flagship DAW on the Linux platform (along with Rosegarden, which is used more typically as a MIDI sequencer, I think). It's not quite as powerful and not nearly as user-friendly or as pretty as other DAWs, but it has the advantage (like all Linux software) of being completely free (even the plugins are all free shareware). Also because it's open-source software, the developers are directly in contact with the producers, engineers and musicians who use it, and they advise the software people on what the program lacks and how it can be improved.

It's always something of an adventure using Linux stuff, but it's a good alternative for me as I am a broke college student who really can't afford something like Pro Tools or Logic. But all that being said, I haven't had a problem with it yet; even the sketch recordings I have done for my band have turned out sounding pretty decent.
 
HI Gavin my name is Massimo and I play drums. I am 9 years old and I think your absolutely great on your toms and cymbals. I would like to know know what kind of china type cymbals you use. I am also your youngest porcipine tree lover. I really wanted to go to your porcipine tree concert in melbourne [where I live] but I couldn't because i need to be over 18 years old. Regards Massimo
 
Hi Massimo98,

thanks for the comment about my 'toms and cymbals'. The china cymbals that I use are all Zildjian - 12" & 16" Oriental China Trashes and an 18" Z Custom China. Sorry you can't get into the show in Melbourne, the age limitations are beyond our control. Usually the case is that the local promoter and venue want to make money from selling alcohol and therefore have to have a minimum age limit. We love it when under 18's can come to see our shows.

I will be playing at the Geelong drum festival on the 29th of April (which I believe is close to Melbourne) and if you can come along you might hear a PT song or two.

cheers
Gavin
 
Hi Gavin,

While in your studio, whether practicing or recording, what kind of drum mix do you have in the ears? For example, you have a click and some music in your headphones, but what about drums? Do you hear your drums with EQ and compression, dry drums (kept low in the mix), or no drums in your headphones at all?

What works for you?

Thanks
Jeff
 
Hi Jeff,

I have a full mix of the drums in my headphones. I can hear the little bit of eq that I have going through the desk (but the compression takes place in the computer after I've recorded them).
I use an old Yamaha Reverb on the snare and toms just to listen to in my headphones - it doesn't get recorded - it just for vibe. It's pretty comfortable - for recording or practising.

cheers
Gavin
 
Really digging your work with Blackfield I. At first, I didn't know it was you, but I could've sworn is sounded so similar. Must be a really great experience being able to work with Steven as a songwriter. He really knows his melody and harmonies!
 
Hi Gavin,

I noticed that you mentioned you're playing at the Geelong drum festival in Melbourne. I was wondering if you are playing at any drum clinics in Sydney? I asked you a while ago about it and at the time you were trying to arrange some clinics. So, i was wondering if you have anything in concrete yet? because i'd be really keen to go.

-Luke
 
Hi Gavin,

Sorry if this has been covered before (when I use the 'search this thread' function the page number doesn't seem to tie up with where the posting actually is). Will you be involved in any UK clinics in the near future?

Looking forward to your new material with 05Ric. The first album was superb!

Mix
 
Hi mixamuss,

Does the word(s) you're searching for not appear anywhere on the resulting page? I can't make the search engine jump to the exact post - but when I use it - it finds the page(s) then I have to do a 'command+F' and it will find the word.

I have no UK clinics planned at the moment. I will be performing at "Drummer Live" on the 15th of June at 2:45 on the main stage.

Yes, myself and Ric are working on another album at the moment - hope to have it released later this year - probably in the Autumn.

cheers
Gavin
 
Hi Gavin,

Just a quick note to say it will be great to see you at DrummerLive this year. Its a shame someone of your calibre has not been able to get any UK clinics sorted. I do remember asking the same question many pages back in this thread and if my memory serves me correctly you said it would be best to get in touch with marketing at Sonor to express an interest?

Cheers.
 
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Thanks for the quick response Gavin.

The ctrl 'F' does work, it just that sometimes the reported page isn't the correct one. I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that sometimes when I view the latest posts they appear on page 1 as opposed to the latest page (p60 at the moment) so maybe that messes up the search. Never mind, it's very good of you to put so much time and effort into these pages and it's a minor problem in the scheme of things.

I'll look forward to DrummerLive and to the new 05Ric album.

Mix
 
I will be performing at "Drummer Live" on the 15th of June at 2:45 on the main stage.

This is great news! Will you be playing similar things to what you did at Musikmesse Frankfurt? It would also be cool to hear some tough Porcupine Tree sections broken down.

Cheers, Tim
 
Hi Massimo98,

thanks for the comment about my 'toms and cymbals'. The china cymbals that I use are all Zildjian - 12" & 16" Oriental China Trashes and an 18" Z Custom China. Sorry you can't get into the show in Melbourne, the age limitations are beyond our control. Usually the case is that the local promoter and venue want to make money from selling alcohol and therefore have to have a minimum age limit. We love it when under 18's can come to see our shows.

I will be playing at the Geelong drum festival on the 29th of April (which I believe is close to Melbourne) and if you can come along you might hear a PT song or two.

cheers
Gavin

Hi Gavin its massimo again. Thankyou so much for replying to me that was auesome!
me and my dad really want to come to the Gellong drum festival, but we can't find anything out about it. Do you have anymore info please? . Do you know the venue? . Cheers Massimo.
 
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