Ceramic Drums

My very first post.

OK, so I picked a "name" that gives away the reason I joined this forum. And YES I am NOT a drummer. I know very little about percussion instruments.

I am a ceramic artist that has been asked to create a ceramic snare drum shell to some pretty ridged specifications. I have CAD-CAM drawings and standard blue prints to work from. I understand the principal of clay shrinkage and know that my clay shrinks 8% from the wet stage to the fired product.

I have been reading about the many, many variables that determine how a drum shell's construction can determine the "SOUND" of the instrument. I am impressed how much science goes into making drums. I have read about concrete, alabaster, pure crystal and even marble drum shells.

I have already decided to recommend a free floating hardware system, because I do not think I can hold the needed tolerances on so many holes and their positioning that the traditional hardware would require.

QUESTION: Can any of you share any advice about making ceramic drum shells? Does anyone know of others who have made ceramic drums? Available information seems very limited.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Andy Sheppard
[email protected]
Studio established in 1954
Florida, USA
 
Re: Ceramic Drum Shells

Well I just googled Ceramic Drums and found a lot of different things. I live in Seminole, a few minutes away if you like to get together and discuss things. One of the important things on drums is the bearing edge, the edge that the head rests on, and Im not sure how ceramic would take to drum sticks. Most of the ceramic drums I see are hand percussion. So a hard wood stick would not be hitting said bearing edge. Let me know if you would like to get together on this. You can pick my brain for what its worth. P.s we are the same age so we can split the cost of any Geritol we need.
 
I trained in university as a ceramic artist and I have thought a lot about creating a ceramic snare drum.

I think Gruntersdad has the right of it when he mentioned bearing edges but I will go a step further. They need to be as smooth as a babies butt, completely even and accurate. In my experience, (which is certainly not as extensive as yours), I believe porcelain would be the only construction material I would choose because of the fineness of the material. Most other clays I have found to coarse.

I suppose you could glaze the bearing edges, but any wobbles or high/low parts will greatly affect the performance. It needs to be completely even for the head to seat properly.

I would also consider not glazing the inside of the shell, as this could take away from the inherent sound of the clay and the glassy surface would be really really bright in tone. Some people like that though....but it is something to consider.

A free floating system may be the way to go in this case, however it has some drawbacks. With a free floater, (Wac'd, Sleishman etc) you cannot tune the top and bottom heads to a different tension. Many drummers, (myself included) prefer to be able to tune the heads differently as many overtones can be created or eliminated to taste.

If it were me doing this project, (and i may one day get to it), I would go for a classic construction with tube lugs and isolate them with rubber or nylon grommets. You will have to go into it with the idea that the structure will possibly fail to take the pressure. The price of experimentation!

I am positive that it can be done, but there would have to be tons of trials to determine structural integrity, shell thicknesses, bearing edge profiles and possibly texturing the inside of the shell to produce an attractive sound.

Good luck, and let us know how you go with it!
 
Good luck making a shell 8% larger and hoping it fits the close tolerances required to ensure a good head to shell fit. It's not like you can take a little off here and there. I don't envy your task. I would imagine you would have to make some quick and dirty test shells first to see what you are dealing with. I do admire what you are trying to do, please don't take it that I'm being negative. I empathize with your plight and want to see you succeed.
 
A free floating system may be the way to go in this case, however it has some drawbacks. With a free floater, (Wac'd, Sleishman etc) you cannot tune the top and bottom heads to a different tension. Many drummers, (myself included) prefer to be able to tune the heads differently as many overtones can be created or eliminated to taste.

Of course, they could use a Pearl or other kind of free-floating system to get different pitches, but that might be kind of hard to build.
 
Good luck making a shell 8% larger and hoping it fits the close tolerances required to ensure a good head to shell fit. It's not like you can take a little off here and there..

On considering drilling or making the holes in the shell I believe you would have to drill after it has been fired using a tungsten carbide or diamond drill. I think it would be extraordinarily tough to calculate the spacings before firing as the shrinkage works in three dimensions and kilns are notoriously fickle. Most kilns I have encountered do not give even heat throughout, there are cooler and hotter spots within it. I would guess our OP would have his kiln sussed but the tolerances in the hardware aren't large.

The Pearl Free Floater would be the easiest way to go with this project IMO, (even though it isn't a true free floater). All you would need to do is one bearing edge for the batter and a flat bottom section to rest on the metal part. That system would also allow you to know if the ceramic can take the pressure of a snare drum. You just need to acquire a used Pearl FF.
 
My very first post.

OK, so I picked a "name" that gives away the reason I joined this forum. And YES I am NOT a drummer. I know very little about percussion instruments.

I am a ceramic artist that has been asked to create a ceramic snare drum shell to some pretty ridged specifications. I have CAD-CAM drawings and standard blue prints to work from. I understand the principal of clay shrinkage and know that my clay shrinks 8% from the wet stage to the fired product.

I have been reading about the many, many variables that determine how a drum shell's construction can determine the "SOUND" of the instrument. I am impressed how much science goes into making drums. I have read about concrete, alabaster, pure crystal and even marble drum shells.

I have already decided to recommend a free floating hardware system, because I do not think I can hold the needed tolerances on so many holes and their positioning that the traditional hardware would require.

QUESTION: Can any of you share any advice about making ceramic drum shells? Does anyone know of others who have made ceramic drums? Available information seems very limited.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Andy Sheppard
[email protected]
Studio established in 1954
Florida, USA

Freaking cool! I own very exotic drums so I really appreciate when someone is trying to do something unusual and different. There is a lovely tradition on Drummerworld of innovative creators showing off their work. A play lots of hand percussion and I have played many ceramic drums but never a ceramic snare.

I know nothing of making pottery and stuff. However, tolerances do not have to be exact for the location of lugs (I assume you would have to create the lug mounting bolt holes prior to hardening). Check out some standard drums and rims and notice the holes in the rims are oblong, not round, to allow for slight variations in the locations of the lugs and how the tuning bolts will line up.

If you want to go with floating hardware because it would be cool, then go for it. But I don't think you'd necessarily have to do it just because your shell shrinks in hardening. Again, I don't know how much the holes move in shrinkage and if the holes move relative to each other, that will make it difficult to place a lug.

I might recommend single-point tube lugs, to reduce the need for shell penetrations. And a six lug design would likely be less vulnerable to errors than an eight lug design. A six lug shell with single-point tube lugs would only need six penetrations. Also, I don't now how you're planning to handle the snare throwoff and butt plate.

I think you will have challenges ensuring perfect bearing edges. I suppose you can grind down slight waves if a bearing edge warps slightly? Also, ceramic is very brittle and are you sure your shell will be able to withstand constant high-tension pulling?

We will give you free advice but you must promise to put up photos of the finished drum and, if permissible, the creation process. Please invite the drummer who is commissioning you to come here and talk about it. Awesome idea to make a drum like this!
 
I would also wonder how much that baby would weigh? To keep it structurally sound, I would think that it would have to be thicker like a stave shell. I would not use single post lugs, as they would tend to put pressure on the shell less evenly than dual posts, which spread stress better. Because it may have to have a fairly thick shell, it would most likely be big in the volume and projection department, and less resonant than other materials, like wood.
 
WOW, I really did not expect so many responses so quickly. Most of you must stay up all night long.

Let me respond to each one of you in the order you posted.

GRUNTERSDAD: I will surly take advantage of your drum knowledge as I progress on this project. So cool that we live so few miles apart. AND YOU BEING AN ADMINISTRATOR TO BOOT.

You mentioned the bearing edge strength. Isn't the head end of the shell covered by a metal rim? Would not some of the stick's impact be spread out around the rim?

Geritol? Never touch the stuff.

SONNYGRABBER: Interesting name. A fellow ceramicist, great.

My earthenware clay has a large amount of talcum in it. You would not believe how smooth my bisque surfaces are.

I was thinking since clay is SOOO easily molded I could use a section of the metal rim as a tool to sculpt the bearing edge, can't get any more accurate than that. I was also planning on glazing all surfaces of the shell, especially the bearing edges.

Just about all of the ceramic art I make is usually about 1/4 inch thick. My large bowls "ring" like a crystal goblet when thumped with a finger. The plans I have call for a 3/8 inch thick shell. My Grandmother used to clang two of her ceramic pieces against each other as a demonstration how strong our product was. Of course you have to know where to hit them together to not be embarrassed.

As far as a textured shell interior, Let me see if I can first make a shell that is actually round. I imagine that there will be many ceramic shell prototypes before the sweet spot for any one individual drummer is found. And then the next drummer will want a little more salt., less pepper and maybe some oregano.

LARRYACE: "It's not like you can take a little off here and there." Yes I can. I plan to model the shell over size and then set the shell up on a lathe and "turn" it down to the needed dimension AFTER it has dried to the leather hard stage. Most of the shrinking will have been accomplished by that time.

PORTER: Different pitches? Like filling glasses with different amounts of water so you can "play" them like bells. Hey, a ceramic drum would hold water. Might work with water resistant heads.

SONNYGRABBER: In the past I have used a diamond tipped drill for cutting holes in some of my ceramic art, and it worked very well. You are right. After the first kiln firing as completed might be the very best time to drill holes.

Shrinkage does work in three dimensions. It is the 4th dimension I am worried about. You know those kiln gremlins we blame all of our failures on.

QUESTION: Just how many pounds (pun intended) of pressure is exerted on the shell rims with a conventional hardware set up? Anybody ever measure it?

DEATHMETALCONGA: Is that a real dance step? Sounds like music my son's band, KORN, plays.

You mentioned that the holes in the rims are oblong. Did you mean the holes in the shells are oblong allowing for a little play in all of the through bolts that hold the lugs?

Single-point tube lugs, and a six lug system sounds great. But for now I have to work to the blue prints my client has provided. Something like 29 holes to be drilled. In perfect position.

KEEP IT SIMPLE: Andy, I did not contact Gary. You said you were going to tell him about my project. You mentioned giving me his email address but it was NOT in your email.

No fear, my client is an architectural engineer that just happens to design metal percussion instruments. Ever heard of ice bells? No competition to any of you all.]

Basswood: I think I read somewhere that Dixon made drum shell using a man made marble composite material. Sorry I do not have a reference for that info.

MANDREW and PORTER: The snare drum shell I am going to try to develop is going to be incredibly lightweight. It will probably weigh LESS than the hardware attached to it. How you ask. A little bit of magic called fiber infused ceramic earthenware clay. I now imagine some one will say "If it does not have any heft to it it must not be any good. So be it.

Good suggestion about spreading the lug bolt's torque across more shell surface by using 2 holes per lug than 1 hole per lug.

All Drummers:

OK, I hope everybody feels good about this experiment I am embarking on. Because of your comments I feel energized. Only 2 hurdles to overcome. TIME and MONEY. I am contemplating running a funding project on IndieGoGo.com to get some Research and Development money. Has any body here ever used that funding web site? I sure will need help creating a "story" that makes it sound like I know what I am doing and that this is a great idea with backing from real drummers like you.

Andy Sheppard
Pat Young Ceramic Arts
Studio established in 1954
 
DEATHMETALCONGA: Is that a real dance step? Sounds like music my son's band, KORN, plays.

Andy Sheppard
Pat Young Ceramic Arts
Studio established in 1954
I was reading this because it sounded like an interesting topic but I have to ask- does your son play in a Korn cover band or are you saying you're Ray Luziers father?
 
DEATHMETALCONGA: Is that a real dance step? Sounds like music my son's band, KORN, plays.

You mentioned that the holes in the rims are oblong. Did you mean the holes in the shells are oblong allowing for a little play in all of the through bolts that hold the lugs?

Single-point tube lugs, and a six lug system sounds great. But for now I have to work to the blue prints my client has provided. Something like 29 holes to be drilled. In perfect position.

HA! A dance step would be cool.

I really did mean the holes in the rims (a.k.a. triple-flanged hoops) are oblong. All the holes in shells I have ever seen are perfectly round. The holes in the hoops (rims) are oblong because sometimes lugs aren't mounted perfectly evenly around the shell, even with stable materials like plywood. Pick up a drum hoop and see what I mean. Hold a tuning bolt through the hole and notice how much larger the hole is. That is your "wiggle room." Another common issue is splay - if there is much difference between the height of the lug, diameter of the shell and size of the rim, then the tuning bolts may angle inward or outward with reference to the top of the shell. The shrinkage of ceramics would aggravate splay. Again, the oblong holes are intended to accommodate things like this to an extent. Most lugs have a "floating" receiver for the tuning bolt; the receiver is the female part the tuning bolt goes into and the receiver moves inside the lug and is kept in place with a spring.

See the photo below and notice the holes are oblong.

sHoopsideby.jpg
 
I was reading this because it sounded like an interesting topic but I have to ask- does your son play in a Korn cover band or are you saying you're Ray Luziers father?

TODDMC,

I am old enough to be Ray's father but I am not his Dad.

Gosh nothing like NAME DROPPING to get attention. My son "scottsquatch" works WITH KORN. He is Monkey's personal assistant AND programs / runs the teleprompter for John. He has toured with them for a few years to include their European tours. He is on a short USA tour with KORN right now. He also plays some base guitar at home.

I do not know if he has mentioned my ceramic snare drum project to RAY or not.

Andy Sheppard
 
HA! A dance step would be cool.

That is your "wiggle room." Another common issue is splay - if there is much difference between the height of the lug, diameter of the shell and size of the rim, then the tuning bolts may angle inward or outward with reference to the top of the shell. The shrinkage of ceramics would aggravate splay. Again, the oblong holes are intended to accommodate things like this to an extent. Most lugs have a "floating" receiver for the tuning bolt; the receiver is the female part the tuning bolt goes into and the receiver moves inside the lug and is kept in place with a spring.

Wow again. Thanks for all of this detail. As you mentioned not much room for error.

Andy Sheppard
 
PORTER: Different pitches? Like filling glasses with different amounts of water so you can "play" them like bells. Hey, a ceramic drum would hold water. Might work with water resistant heads.

I was responding to the previous statement about how Sleishman, Wac'd, etc. free-floating system don't allow for individual tensions (thereby, individual pitches) on each head. The Pearl Free-Floater hardware does.

MANDREW and PORTER: The snare drum shell I am going to try to develop is going to be incredibly lightweight. It will probably weigh LESS than the hardware attached to it. How you ask. A little bit of magic called fiber infused ceramic earthenware clay. I now imagine some one will say "If it does not have any heft to it it must not be any good. So be it.

OK, I hope everybody feels good about this experiment I am embarking on. Because of your comments I feel energized. Only 2 hurdles to overcome. TIME and MONEY. I am contemplating running a funding project on IndieGoGo.com to get some Research and Development money. Has any body here ever used that funding web site? I sure will need help creating a "story" that makes it sound like I know what I am doing and that this is a great idea with backing from real drummers like you.

With all the die-cast metal manufacturers use nowadays, I'd guess that most drums weigh less than their hardware (unless one were to use aluminum hardware). Still- lightweight is generally a fine thing :)

As for indiegogo- sure, it's a good site. Personally I prefer Kickstarter but IndieGoGo has more funding plans/flexibility. Just don't set the funding goal too high and I'm sure people will be interested.
 
In drums as we know them now, the metal (or wood) rim does not touch the shell in any way. It holds the head to the shell by virtue of the collar on the head.

I've revised my thinking from earlier and have a few ideas that might work out.

First, I agree with earlier posts that you will want a dual point lug in each position to defray some of the pressure exerted on the drumshell. Even with different tensions this system would work better IMO. I wouldn't worry about the pressure of the head on the drum, but rather the pressure of the hardware on the drum under tension from the heads.

Second, I think that pre-drilling may be the way to go, but a smaller hole, and you can ream it out in the appropriate directions with the diamond bit once fired to bisque. I expect you will be taking this to stoneware, and the shrinkage isn't too great from bisque to stoneware if I remember correctly. And any wobble in the hole will be masked by the washers that help hold the lug to the shell.

Third, as I said earlier glazing the interior of the shell will make for an extremely bright and ringy drum. I assume that you will not want to have the metal of the lugs resting on the ceramic shell so you will probably need to use some form of rubber or nylon grommet inside and out. This will mellow the ring a bit but I think it will still be very bright.

Glazing the bearing edges should work so long as it is very very even with no high and low spots. My perception of glazing the whole shell is basically akin to making a drum out of glass. This is why I suggested that you may not want to do this as the clay, even fired to stoneware, is still porous and will have it's own unique voice.

What I was refering to earlier regarding the texturing of the the shell was not to say that the drum shouldn't be round. It should be as round as is humanly possible. I was suggesting the interior might be textured, (finger marks, tool marks, etc) to help take some of the brightness and ring away.

I am very excited to follow this idea with you, and I so look forward to the final results. You have some serious experimentation ahead of you...and I love experimentation. I no longer work much in ceramics, but rather with metals. I'm contemplating creating a drum out of copper very soon, but I have to make the tools to do so first.
 
Hi!

Not a drum builder, but really curious about the project! I do have a question, though. I am no expert in ceramics, so bear with me. I know ceramics can be plenty strong (as you mentioned earlier), but could it withstand repeated blows to the head and the stress the contact points feel due to repeated blows?

To give you an example, roads are designed to be extremely sturdy and strong. However, rain and cars and trucks using them all the time do make the concrete crack or waste away. Would ceramic be able to be that resilient? So, while the shell can be designed to be strong enough to hold the lugs in their locations and be used, would it not be too brittle to withstand the repeated vibration from the use of the drum? I mean, if you hit the drum on the head, you have extra stress placed on the tension lugs, the bearing edge, and the snare bed. It isn't too much, but keep in mind how many times a snare gets hit per song. In a gig situation where there are huge vibrations from basses, guitars, or other instruments, would that factor in as well? I do wonder if sympathetic vibrations would figure into this as well.

I guess I am more curious about the longevity of the drum than anything else. This is a really cool project, though!
 
In drums as we know them now, the metal (or wood) rim does not touch the shell in any way. It holds the head to the shell by virtue of the collar on the head.

I've revised my thinking from earlier and have a few ideas that might work out.

First, I agree with earlier posts that you will want a dual point lug in each position to defray some of the pressure exerted on the drumshell. Even with different tensions this system would work better IMO. I wouldn't worry about the pressure of the head on the drum, but rather the pressure of the hardware on the drum under tension from the heads.

Second, I think that pre-drilling may be the way to go, but a smaller hole, and you can ream it out in the appropriate directions with the diamond bit once fired to bisque. I expect you will be taking this to stoneware, and the shrinkage isn't too great from bisque to stoneware if I remember correctly. And any wobble in the hole will be masked by the washers that help hold the lug to the shell.

Third, as I said earlier glazing the interior of the shell will make for an extremely bright and ringy drum. I assume that you will not want to have the metal of the lugs resting on the ceramic shell so you will probably need to use some form of rubber or nylon grommet inside and out. This will mellow the ring a bit but I think it will still be very bright.

Glazing the bearing edges should work so long as it is very very even with no high and low spots. My perception of glazing the whole shell is basically akin to making a drum out of glass. This is why I suggested that you may not want to do this as the clay, even fired to stoneware, is still porous and will have it's own unique voice.

What I was refering to earlier regarding the texturing of the the shell was not to say that the drum shouldn't be round. It should be as round as is humanly possible. I was suggesting the interior might be textured, (finger marks, tool marks, etc) to help take some of the brightness and ring away.

I am very excited to follow this idea with you, and I so look forward to the final results. You have some serious experimentation ahead of you...and I love experimentation. I no longer work much in ceramics, but rather with metals. I'm contemplating creating a drum out of copper very soon, but I have to make the tools to do so first.

Excellent points. A single-point lug would simplify assembly and accuracy but it would focus stress in a smaller area, which is a real concern with something brittle like ceramics. Also good idea about making smaller holes in the wet clay to mount the lugs, then ream them out. Depending on shrinkage, it may be necessary to ream some holes out more than others. I have a feeling it's going to be much easier to ream out holes in ceramic than drill them.
 
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