Arky's DIY cymbal modification stuff

Arky

Platinum Member
Hi people.
This thread isn't actually about me playing something but I've did some cymbal recordings in my homestudio.

A few months ago I started buying cracked cymbals to make bells out of them - inspired by those bells Gavin Harrison is using. I have 10 of those DIY bells now and have recorded some sound samples. I call this modding "straight to bell" modification ;-)

It's 10 bells with 3 samples each - 3 different ways of hitting them but applying the same ways of hitting across all bells, for better comparison. Using 2 different mics in different positions turned out as I expected/hoped: The Oktava MK-319 (large condenser) has way more treble/clearness while the Oktava ML-52 (ribbon mic) is much smoother/mellower.


Here's the links to my Dropbox Public folder where those bell samples can be retreived from:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/Arky_bell sound samples

(If you don't want to register with Dropbox (which is a cool way of sharing stuff with people) - tell me some alternative websites I could upload those samples.)

You'll find the following files there:
bells_samples trimmed_wav.zip (unpacked size is around 80MB)
bells_samples trimmed_mp3.zip (unpackped size is 7MB)

The WAV files are 44.1kHz/24 bit resolution, the MP3 files are 192.
A PDF chart provides additional info on the bells (make, size, pitch), plus I've packed a pic with all bells into those ZIP files.

As for the file names:
01 through 10 = # of bells in order of modification.
a through c = the different ways I hit those bells.
a = Hitting them towards the edge (at 3 o'clock position), with a sweep motion -> full harmonics and level.
b = Hitting them half-way on the bow (3 o'clock), and with the shoulder of the stick, w/ stick parallel to the floor.
c = Hitting them with the tip of the stick (6 o'clock), stick parallel to the ground.
Both the WAV and MP3 folder contain the PDF info chart and gallery pic of all 10 bells (see next post) to round up the listening experience.

(Stick used was a Pro Mark Todd Sucherman signature, SD330W - yes, sticks make a sound difference with cymbals, too.
I chose those hitting variations as they all result in different sounds, although b and c can be subtle depending on the bell.)

So if you like, say, sample "04_a.wav" and want to know which bell that actually is and how it was hit - it's the bell #4 in order of modification, listed in the PDF as that Stagg 15'' Crash bell, hit towards the edge.

My homestudio has no sound treatment whatsoever, and when I stood there with the headphones on I also heard my heart beating, a TV system and other vibrations from downstairs, plus some traffic noise. Seems this didn't make it on the samples but the noise level is significantly higher than in real pro studios of course.


As for the mics... The ML-52 has close to non-existing noise. I had to amplify this mic by around 55 dB, the MK-319 needed about 45 dB (varying amplification level depending on the bells). Blending those mics (shifting the pan from stereo mid to the left or right) provides an eq-like effect.

In the recordings/panning, the mic placement is the opposite as in the pic - the MK-319 is panned to the left, with the ML-52 panned to the right. Preamp was a Mindprint DTC (Dual Tube Channel) - but no EQ/compression used.

It was great fun recording the samples and it was interesting to see that sample recording calls for a consistent approach of positioning, hitting (dynamics) etc. I'm happy with the results and I hope you'll have some benefit from listening to those samples (or using them), too. I listened to some bell sound samples on the website of a music megastore and I like my bells in comparison to them.

For more infos on those bells - here's the link to a thread on the Derek Roddy forum. I was just too lazy to post all that stuff on Drummerworld, too. If you have questions etc - ask away.
Cymbal modification
http://www.derekroddy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=20898

I must say that originally I thought that I'd make enough bells for a bell setup like Gavin has (5 bells) and build a custom bell holder. But now it has turned into an addiction - I will collect/make more of them! It's interesting and fun to utilize cracked cymbals and you never know how the bells turn out, every time is like giving birth to something new. And then, those aren't bought from stock but it was _your_ work (cutting them, polishing the edges, and polishing the bells).
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

I have always been interested in cymbal modification, especially into bells! I'd absolutely love to take a listen, but when I click on the link it says it can't find the folder. =/

Anyway, great post, I can't wait to hear!
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Hey, thanks for your reply!

Seems you have to register with Dropbox, copy that link and insert it into your browser - should get you right there. You know, I almost never upload stuff so I wasn't sure where to upload it to. See attached snashot for the full link.

You can also PM me - tell me your direct e-mail address and I can send you the samples in MP3 format (around 7MB). If you like it you can go the Dropbox route and get the higher quality samples.

There's absolutely no magic involved in making bells from cracked cymbals (unless the cracks are rendering the bell useless). It's damn easy and fun making them. Just try it!
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Wow they look good, and your method seems to be much easier than the way I cut down my cymbals.. :)

Will listen to them later (at work right now) but I'm sure they sound good! :)
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Hey Kalma, on one German drum forum I found a thread where you said that one of your bells didn't sound good ("Sch*ße" was the term, haha) as it had not enough edge - I know what you mean ;-) #10 is one of those... I had no way to cut it larger in size as the cymbal was cracked right around the bell as I bought it, that specific cymbal was in a process of modifying itself into a bell - half of the mod was already done, I just helped a bit. Thus, this one has extremely short sustain - which might be a benefit depending on the musical situation.

As I don't have proper turning equipment my bells aren't perfectly round but I learned how to optimize what I can do. I think some slight out of roundness (we're talking 1, 2 mm max in diameter difference) doesn't alter the sound/resonance a lot. I might rework some bells around their edges for better roundness at some time.

The samples actually helped me reevaluate some of the bells. The bigger ones just look more impressive so the ears are "telling" me they should sound better, too. Some of those which don't look great (the one made from the Meinl 16'' crash) actually sound interesting if you don't look at them, haha. They all make sense due to their sonic differences. If you have enough of them you can build scales which is real fun. I have to make some holders for them soon.

Well I invested some time polishing them as pretty much all of them (the non-modified cymbals) came with quite some tarnish. I noticed that after the polish (I'm using "Gundelputz" to polish them) they quickly got tarnished so recently I repolished them, then applied the Paiste Cymbal Protector and also some linseed oil afterwards - this was some 2 weeks ago and they still look very good. This protection coating seems to work.

Some bells have a keyhole - that's because they were "repaired" by the previous owners, got out of balance but the owners continued to use/mount them so it was natural for them to develop keyholes. Which is no prob for bell modifications as they will stay in perfect balance if you tighten the cymbal felts just a little bit.
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Hey Kalma, on one German drum forum I found a thread where you said that one of your bells didn't sound good ("Sch*ße" was the term, haha) as it had not enough edge - I know what you mean ;-) #10 is one of those... I had no way to cut it larger in size as the cymbal was cracked right around the bell as I bought it, that specific cymbal was in a process of modifying itself into a bell - half of the mod was already done, I just helped a bit. Thus, this one has extremely short sustain - which might be a benefit depending on the musical situation.

As I don't have proper turning equipment my bells aren't perfectly round but I learned how to optimize what I can do. I think some slight out of roundness (we're talking 1, 2 mm max in diameter difference) doesn't alter the sound/resonance a lot. I might rework some bells around their edges for better roundness at some time.

The samples actually helped me reevaluate some of the bells. The bigger ones just look more impressive so the ears are "telling" me they should sound better, too. Some of those which don't look great (the one made from the Meinl 16'' crash) actually sound interesting if you don't look at them, haha. They all make sense due to their sonic differences. If you have enough of them you can build scales which is real fun. I have to make some holders for them soon.

Well I invested some time polishing them as pretty much all of them (the non-modified cymbals) came with quite some tarnish. I noticed that after the polish (I'm using "Gundelputz" to polish them) they quickly got tarnished so recently I repolished them, then applied the Paiste Cymbal Protector and also some linseed oil afterwards - this was some 2 weeks ago and they still look very good. This protection coating seems to work.

Some bells have a keyhole - that's because they were "repaired" by the previous owners, got out of balance but the owners continued to use/mount them so it was natural for them to develop keyholes. Which is no prob for bell modifications as they will stay in perfect balance if you tighten the cymbal felts just a little bit.


Ha yeah I remember about that thread, but it was pretty long ago I guess?
But I guess it's logical that it doesn't sound good...

My chimes are not 100% round as well, I guess 1mm tolerance or something..
I always put the cymbals onto a screw and mount it into my drill machine and then hold a rasp against it.. (makes sense?) Works pretty good!
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Ha yeah I remember about that thread, but it was pretty long ago I guess?
But I guess it's logical that it doesn't sound good...

My chimes are not 100% round as well, I guess 1mm tolerance or something..
Well I found that thread a few months ago when I was doing some research on DIY bells and how to make a bell holder. And I found some interesting ideas/tips/bell holder designs. My problem is finding suitable "bell screws/posts" - where the bellsare mounted onto. Finding/cutting a holder bar and drilling a few holes is easy of course. I've settled on the dimensions of a 5-way holder but haven't started with the build.

I always put the cymbals onto a screw and mount it into my drill machine and then hold a rasp against it.. (makes sense?) Works pretty good!
Sure, that's the way Gavin describes it in the Q&A/FAQ section of his website. I haven't tried this approach yet. Cool to learn that some pro drummers are into DIY ;-)

I've cut a few of them with tin snips first. But those can bend the edges a bit which doesn't happen if you use a disk cutter. And I know that with a disk cutter I'll cut any bell in about 10 minutes or less, with no big strain on the hands and no blisters.
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

I've cut a few of them with tin snips first. But those can bend the edges a bit which doesn't happen if you use a disk cutter. And I know that with a disk cutter I'll cut any bell in about 10 minutes or less, with no big strain on the hands and no blisters.

Had the same problem.. My dad said there were some special metal shears, though - so a "normal" metal shears might not work so good..
damn wanna hear your chimes now!! fucking meeting!! -.-
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Just modified 7 cracked cymbals (off Ebay, all from the same seller) into bells. I just couldn't let those auctions slip... Got away with a total of 54 Euros (shipping included) for all of them.

Cutting out the bells took about 24 minutes. Plus 20 minutes at the sanding block (reworking the edges), then smoothening the edges with a handfile & sandpaper, 2 hours polishing, 2 hours cleaning & conditioning.

Here's a "before" pic - will add some "after" pics and record new samples soon.

Plus some "after" pics, with the cymbals in the same order. I made it a habit to shoot pics after the bell mod in "mosaique" mode.

The last pic shows those first 9 bells (initially I made 10 but one of them sounded crappy, will discard that one) in the 2 background lines, with the new 7 bells in the foreground - no particular order, just did a group pic. Haven't checked the new bells out properly yet (pitch). But I'm sure that should be enough bells to form various scales/sound scapes.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

I made some more bells in the meantime...

Here's a group pic of the total of 25 bells I've made so far (plus 1 more which turned out crap as it had a crack right along the bell - not enough material to sound nice). Recently I bought 13 used cymbals off Ebay (cracked or already 'repaired') and made 9 of them into bells, that's my "3rd batch". See the 'mosaique' pic #2.

The last pic shows the tools I'm using.

I made sample recordings of the first 9 (initially 10) bells but haven't added samples of the newer bells. I've started finally making some bell holders.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Haha - thanks Andy! (Maybe I have too much time on my hands...)

It's so ridiculous to assume that once a cymbal has a crack it's 'broken' - yes it is compared to the original condition of course but as long as the bell and a minimum of bow around is intact you can always make something nice out of it. Or cut cymbals down to splashes (done this 4 times so far) - or do some O-zone style cymbals (done this once - a lot of work!).

As for creativity... I still haven't discarded all the remaining parts after the modifications. In fact some weeks ago I cut most of that rest material into whatever might be useful in the future - into cymbal rings (to stack them for sound effects). And I prepared a few 14'' and 13'' effects cymbal rings JoJo Mayer style, for electronic sound effects.

It's really become an addiction. And honestly buying various stuff and making bells out of it was my first real encounter with cymbals on the market. Now I have some better idea of what to look for and what to avoid. Although - that's my experience - even lesser quality cymbals can make a fine bell.

Here's some more pics - those 13 most recent cymbals (2 auctions, same seller).

That Sabian XS20 was useable in 'repaired' condition but I decided to reduce it to the next smaller size and getting rid of the 'repaired' area. It has lost some volume and fullness but still makes a fine crash.

I reduced those Meinl Generation X Thomas Lang cymbals (1 compressor crash, 1 klub ride) to 14'' because I wanted to use them as my 2nd hihat set. Their bows are so flat that they hardly close when mounted on my Tama Iron Cobra hihat stand. They're ok as splashes. If I made them into bells those bells would be by far the smallest so far - might be a very interesting sound.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

nice work- ever try to make a lathe with a drill to turn them round that way? The brass is soft and would probably turn easily. I need more time to play like you- looks like fun.

I would also, with as many as you have, try my hand at hand hammering a few of them, maybe practice before cutting the bell out to learn how to do it and ehat the different patterns do to the sound so you could still have your bell.

Do you have 10 bells on your kit?
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

nice work- ever try to make a lathe with a drill to turn them round that way? The brass is soft and would probably turn easily. I need more time to play like you- looks like fun.
Would be a nice and cool option - maybe in the longer run. For now I'm ok with my current procedure as I think I have the hang of it. After the first few bells it feels quite easy, I've still been perfecting some steps since then and for DIY (no turning equipment) they came out great. Bigger cymbals would benefit more from good roundness by lathes though.

I would also, with as many as you have, try my hand at hand hammering a few of them, maybe practice before cutting the bell out to learn how to do it and ehat the different patterns do to the sound so you could still have your bell.
I never thought of that. First I have zero experience in hammering (how to, and the effects or what I'd have to do in order to get which changes), and secondly I assume that the material basically has been 'finished' by the manufacturer meaning that at least some of the material had enough stress during manufacturing and probably wouldn't want to take much more. Might be different with cymbals/bells with (almost) plain/unhammered material.

I'm fine checking out how the bells sound after cutting the cymbals and they are all useable and nice sounding. I like their sonic characteristics and would rather collect more of them and group them to reasonable/desired 'families' (e.g. depending on scales/harmonic relationships) than just start experimenting with hammering them. But you're right - I do have a bunch of them and while some feel and sound (and also _look_) more hi-endish than others some of them (a few Paiste's) are quite similar in size, sound and pitch. So hammering would be an alternative to selling.

Do you have 10 bells on your kit?
Do you mean as from the pics of my drumkit in that "Show us..." thread? I put them up just for more practice fun and to accomodate some of them. My drumkit is brand new and the setup is constantly changing as I'm experimenting with placement, distances etc). For those pics I arranged the bells in a somewhat unorthodox way. I just started making some bell holders (basically the same design you see by those DIY'ers inspired by Gavin Harrison) and bought material for 2 5-way holders. I would integrate at least one of those holders into my setup - either placed on top of the hihat (stacked) or in close proximity. I'll certainly do more sound samples when the holders are ready because playing those bells in melodic/rhythmic patterns is where the real fun begins.


DIY bell holder
Here's more info on the materials for those DIY bell holders (got them from the local hardware store):
1x square tub (anodized aluminum, 16mm x 16mm x 1m) = 12.49 Euros
2x round ducts (anodized aluminum, 1 m each, fits/covers M8 threads) = 2x 2.79 = 5.58 Euros
2x threaded rods M8 (1 m each, stainless steel) = 2x 5.99 = 11.98 Euros
(Those 2 rubber hoses on the pics are for aquariums but can be used as cymbal sleeves - I have several cymbal holders with the sleeves missing.)
Makes a total of around 30 Euros for most of the stuff to make 2 bell holders of.

Dimensions (according to the drawing I made, based from a few DIY pics of bell holders I found on the web):
Length = 41.3 cm (The remaining piece of around 17 cm might be enough to make a 2-way bell holder, haha).
Width = 16mm (more than strong enough - the other DIY'ers seem to prefer 20mm). The distance between the bell posts will be 9.5 cm. The bells (or lower felts) will be placed at a height of 3.5cm (3x lower posts) and 10.0cm (2x higher posts) respectively.
I got one used Pearl cymbal stand off Ebay (probably an older model) and it came with a cymbal post/stacker which had pretty much the height and threads needed for those 5-way bell holders. Those Pearl (or other) posts/stackers might be available (starting from around 8 Euros each it seems) but I'll find another way to do it. I thought I'd use the round ducts to create the 'distance' I need, then put some cymbal sleeves (either going to buy some or find a substitute/workaround) on top of them, that's it - pretty simple I guess/hope.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

That's quite some home studio you have going there, Arky. Love the photos - fascinating and aesthetically pleasing all at once. Great stuff.

Lovely crisp recording of the samples ...

1c reminded me of a triangle
3b has a lovely, exotic sound
9a is a bit of a trip :)

In general I thought the "b approach" brought the best out of the bells (hitting them half-way on the bow and with the shoulder of the stick).

I went through a similar exercise, creating samples with a small metal cast of Buddha that was around the house - lovely tone when you tapped it, not miles from your #1a ... and it sounded a bit like 1b when he was struck on the head :)

I found it responded nicely to hard mallets and I expect your bells would too.
 
Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

So here are some pics of the bell holders which I finally made. First I made 2, noticed a few things I could change, learned from my mistakes, decided to make another 2. I went for 10 cm pole spacing instead of 9.5 cm as planned initially.

Bell holders #1-2 are different in that I cut the holes (first drilled them, of course, going from small to larger drills, up to 6.5 mm to prepare for cutting the threads in M8 size) through the entire bar depth of 16mm. Thus, the poles can be screwed in to the full depth of the bar. But those threads have slight play and I also relied on the drilling jig I used to be perpendicular - it wasn't ;-)

So on bell holders #3-4 I went for better cosmetics (adjusted the jig to get better angles) and also decided to only drill/cut the middle hole through the entire bar material depth. The middle hole (thread) has to be there to mount the holder onto a cymbal stand with an M8 thread on top. Alternatively I could get some clamps so in this case no M8 threads are needed on the bottom side to mount the holder. As the other holes aren't drilled/cut through, the pole pieces can be screwed into the bar till a tight fit.

Assembly: Screwing the poles into the bar, putting the ducts onto them (for cosmetics, but also to provide a basis to put those M8 washers on top of them, then the bottom felts, bells, top felts, wingnuts - that's it. For now I only have regular M8 washers but want to get some with larger outer diameter so they would hold the felts better, just in case.

As you can see I don't have enough felts for all those bells. The stacked bells can be used alternatively but make a good match within the bell range on the specific holder. I've grouped bells into 'families' on 3 holders, 2 holders have bells in continuous diatonic scales! Not knowing exactly which felts I'll use on those holders, I decided to not cut the rubber hose into cymbal sleeves yet.

That holder to the left of the hihat and of course the one on the snare are holders #3 and 4.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

(September 28th)

I've scored 4 (cracked/'repaired') cymbals off Ebay recently - they arrived yesterday.
On one cymbal I'm even unaware of the exact model. (Initially the seller had 4 separate auctions running. I made him an offer for all 4 of 'em so he cancelled the auctions and put up a bundled buy-it-now auction which I snatched right away.) So we have (L to R, top to bottom)...

1 Sabian AA Stage Crash 16''
1 Sabian HH Thin Crash 16''
1 Sabian HHX Evolution Crash 16'' (Dave Weckl signature series)
1 Zildjian Avedis Crash Ride 18''

It's obvious those were decent cymbals but now as they are they're more of effect sounds, some sound a bit china-like and most of them have significantly less sustain with the cutouts which the previous owner did. So I decided to mod them into bells right away and not waste time experimenting with splash versions or whatever.

When I was doing the markings I noticed that it took me way longer to do this as usual, I don't know why. And when it came to cutting them it felt like I was doing this for the very first time, like as if I had completely unlearned how to do it. Strange... But rough sanding the edges (which did take some time) was ok and in fact the rough sanding was so good that I needed very little reworking of the edges with the handfiles. I completed the remaining work in the late evening. Briefly checked the sound - all of 'em sound sweet. The smallest one fits exactly into one existing 'diatonic family' and even adds a chromatic note, haha. Haven't checked out where the other bells fit in but they're pretty spread in terms of pitch.

Another pecularity: On the bottom of that Evolution crash there's a signature. I might be completely wrong but it reads like "Dave Weckl". I've dropped the seller an e-mail to find out whose signature it is, haven't gotten a reply yet. Anyway, the signature was wiped off during the polishing so if it _was_ Dave's signature - I'll keep this in mind, haha. Have taken a detail pic of that signature though, just in case.

-------------

(September 29th)

Took some more pics of the finished bells (this time - sunny daylight) and some pics which might be plain stupid but I thought I'd do something else than every time, haha. Had to wait for those damn fish to appear at the right spot and then my cheapo camera needed a split second to shoot the pic so damn, I was too late... Thought it would be funny to have a pic with the bells lined up next to some fishing paraphernalia of my dad (BTW, he doesn't fish in our pond, haha).

(Please apologize for not ligning up the pics with the respective description - I simply don't know how to do this. So... first text, then pics.)

(Pic 1 / merged pics) Here's the pics I shot yesterday before doing the modding - as usual, top and bottom view.
As you can see there weren't too many alternatives to bell modification. Several of those cymbals are rather thin so they're wobbling around a lot with those flexed out rim areas. And that Avedis crash had some remaining crack even after that O-zone style mod so adding more holes wouldn't solve the problem. Plus I don't wanted to reduce them to splashes (additional cutting work) just to find that they don't really deliver, so -> bell mod.

(Pic 2 / merged pics) Here's the after pics, after cutting the bells and rough sanding the edges with the sanding machine (no polishing yet). Pics were done in the late afternoon, with poor daylight.

(Pic 3 / merged pics) Here's those stupid pics from today.
(Pic at the top/left corner is from yesterday though - for comparison.)

(Pic 4) Here's that mystic signature... is it Dave's? ;-)
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Won 2 more auctions... G.A.S. in progress.

- Paiste 101 16" Crash
- Sabian AA Chinese 14"
- Zildjian Z-Custom Rock Crash 18''
- Zildjian Z-Custom Rock Crash 16''

- UFIP (Earcreated Cymbals) Experience Series 12'' (2 drill holes, still 1 crack)
- Paiste 2000 Sound Reflection 16'' (big crack)
- Platin Drums 14'' (with dents)
- Zultan Aja Series 17'' (crack)

At one time I thought I don't need to make splashes but in retrospect, I should have made some splashes out of those 3 Sabians (out of that 4 cymbal auction) I modded recently - they were thin and I think this is great for splashes. Might make some splashes from now on.

PS: I've sold those 2 Meinl Generation x cymbals. But will get a 2nd pair of hihats - that's why I modified those 2 GenX in the first place, they just didn't really work out as such.

To comply with this thread I'll record new samples from the fresh bells. Some vids would be nice, too. For the vids I'll present the bells grouped into families/scales.
 

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Re: bell sound samples (from DIY bells)

Just some eye candy, haha. A bunch of DIY bells, nice weather and some time on my hands... why not make some pics? ;-)

Have been thinking of some different/adjusted holder designs. Basically to cramp more of them on the same holder size (e.g. mounting 7 bells on a 5-way holder size bar) as many bells are rather small in diameter so that post distance of 10 cm seems too much. For those new holders I could use the remaining pieces from the 1 m aluminum bars. They could be attached as cross bars onto the main bar, the bells would be stacked at various heights for free access. Works in (my) theory...

Those from the bottom pics were rather uncomfortable to make. 4 bells didn't make it on the holders - see extra pic. I've stacked 'duplicate pitch' bells as those can be used alternatively but they do vary in sonic characteristics (different amount of harmonics) so swapping them actually makes some difference.

I've repolished a few bells yesterday. I had one bell that was just a litte flat to fit into a 'scale group' but I was surprised that the polishing brought up the pitch just as needed. So polishing has various effects, not just cosmetics.
 

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