Controlled Bounce?
- Thread starter bigd
- Start date
Red Menace
Platinum Member
Are you talking about press/buzz rolls?
Larry
"Uncle Larry"
I was taught that the Holy Grail of technique was to be able to use/control the bounce. So yea I use the bounce to my advantage whenever possible, which is a lot. I wasn't necessarily taught it in the context of developing the roll, more in the context of regaining already expended energy, which comes in to play with every stroke.
Pollyanna
Platinum Member
"Whenever possible" ... interesting way of putting it, Larry. That's something I want to do - increase the amount of spots in the music where I utilise bounce. It feels better and usually makes a more appropriate sound.
I've heard people talk about there being a difference between bounce and rebound and never understood it. Isn't it all just dropping or throwing the stick towards the head, then picking it up again?
Dr_Watso
Platinum Member
Originally, I had the "holy grail" idea about the "bounce" concept too... I've thought a bit about it from time to time, and often I get frustrated when I almost feel like the bounce controls me to some extent. I've often thought the amount a drummer utilizes the natural rebound to save energy or create certain tones from each stroke affects the overall style of the playing. Some sounds and styles (especially heavy stuff) can only really sound right if you play them nearly pushing through the drum, so to speak. Sometimes you can really work with the rebound properties of each part in the kit, other times it seems more appropriate to just choke up a bit and play like a robot.
8Mile
Platinum Member
I think this is an excellent point and I agree. The drummers who use a ton of rebound and have the technical approach that people seem to universally praise as correct or "perfect" tend to sound alike, quite frankly. Different strokes... literally.
Larry
"Uncle Larry"
During a single stroke roll, all my effort goes into throwing the stick down, it comes back up on it's own, or rather I don't let my hands impede the natural rebound. So in that context yes I'm using the bounce, or rebound (same thing Pol as far as I know) to do 50% of the work in returning my stick to it's starting point.
With a double stroke roll, after a certain tempo, the 2nd stroke is mostly all bounce, with a little extra added to the 2nd stroke to make up for volume loss due to the fact that the 2nd stroke isn't thrown down like the first stroke was. So the bounce is being incorporated into the double stroke roll as well. Is this what you are referring to?
With a double stroke roll, after a certain tempo, the 2nd stroke is mostly all bounce, with a little extra added to the 2nd stroke to make up for volume loss due to the fact that the 2nd stroke isn't thrown down like the first stroke was. So the bounce is being incorporated into the double stroke roll as well. Is this what you are referring to?
caddywumpus
Archnemesis of Larryace
When doing a double stroke, you should use two strokes to achieve equal volume between the two notes. After a certain point, you can utilize a "wrist-finger" motion where you use your wrist for the first stroke, and the fingers to throw the stick down for the second stroke. With this technique, you should be able to do double strokes so fast that they sound like buzz strokes--no need to bounce the sticks, except when doing buzz/press/orchestral rolls...
Larry
"Uncle Larry"
Sounds complicated Caddy, wrist for the first stroke, fingers for the 2nd...If the result of each technique yields double strokes that sound even in volume and are smooth, does it really matter that I bounced my doubles to get there? I just don't see how anything could be simpler and smoother than bouncing. I tried playing each stroke and it just doesn't flow for me that way. I'm talking tempos on the quicker side, beyond the zone of individual strokes. At that point, I naturally go to the bounce, that's not good?. Do you continue to stroke them out?
caddywumpus
Archnemesis of Larryace
I come from the classical/rudimental world, where double strokes involve two strokes. When you bounce a stick, you are not applying any more inertia than the first stroke, and due to the laws of physics/transfer of energy/whatever, the second stroke will never sound as loud as the first stroke. It might sound close, especially from right above the drum, but not adding the momentum to that second stroke will make the double stroke sound uneven.
The "wrist-finger" technique isn't complicated at all. In fact, if you play with as relaxed a grip as possible while keeping your fingers on the stick at all times, once you break the 32nd notes at around 90-100 bpm barrier, your hands/wrist/fingers will do it automatically, without having to study and develop a special technique. Over the years, people have given it names, like the Gladstone technique or Push Pull or whatever, but it came from the natural movement of playing double *strokes* at a fast pace. You can play them fast enough to not be able to discern a double-stroke roll from an orchestral roll. Having to "switch over" from double strokes to bounced double strokes and back can also cause a hiccup in one's playing.
Of course, when you play in a band and everything's louder than everything else, and nobody in the audience can hear that you're playing accent notes on the high hat, it really doesn't matter. If you're playing a snare solo in front of a college jury, or tracking in a recording studio where your every stroke is critiqued and can be viewed in wave form, it makes all the difference in the world.
No disrespect intended. I'm just trying to keep the tradition alive. Having studied drumming/rudiments in depth, it's a shame to be out there watching drum line instructors teaching the snare line to bounce their doubles. Ugh...
Pollyanna
Platinum Member
By the OP's definition, I think that means you qualify as "ancient"
Can't say I hear too many closed rolls at gigs in clubs anyway so, as you say, if a closed roll is being played no one's going to notice the imperfections ... and the desired effect will be achieved.
Hi Caddy,
I learnt doubles the way you describe, wrist/fingers.
But isn't it true that we can apply the fingers only because the sticks bounce back? But we don't call this bouncing the sticks?
It appears to me larryace and you were basically talking about the same thing. larryace's "with a little extra added to the 2nd strokes" are probably the finger strokes.
Bigs
I'm not sure if this is what your looking for...but here you go......play doubles accenting the 2nd note....play this very slow around 53 BPM(quarter note). Now work thru your subdivisions the same tempo. Quarter,eights,triplets and 16's and back!
This does wonders for your open and close roll and everything between the two of them.
Denis
I'm not sure if this is what your looking for...but here you go......play doubles accenting the 2nd note....play this very slow around 53 BPM(quarter note). Now work thru your subdivisions the same tempo. Quarter,eights,triplets and 16's and back!
This does wonders for your open and close roll and everything between the two of them.
Denis
Larry
"Uncle Larry"
Caddy can you point me to a YouTube, or can you put up a quick and dirty recording yourself, of a double stroke roll, played at a fast tempo, that isn't bounced? I'd like to hear if I can detect a noticeably superior sound with fully stroked doubles.
I would love to hear 2 DS rolls, back to back, one bounced and one stroked, just to see if there is an audible difference.
To me a double stroke roll should be smooth smooth smooth with an evenness of notes, nothing sticking out.
Maybe I'll put up recording of what I think is a decent bounced DS roll and ask for everyone to pick it apart.
I would love to hear 2 DS rolls, back to back, one bounced and one stroked, just to see if there is an audible difference.
To me a double stroke roll should be smooth smooth smooth with an evenness of notes, nothing sticking out.
Maybe I'll put up recording of what I think is a decent bounced DS roll and ask for everyone to pick it apart.
rocknrollkat
Junior Member
I've been playing using controlled bounce since the late 1950s.
It is an integral part of playing the instrument !!
How can you be a "serious" player and not use the technique ??
Rocky
rocknrollkat
Junior Member
Great classic technique for equalising the note volumes !!
The idea is to be able to play doubles and have 'em sound like singles.
Mix single and doubles for some great controlled bounce effects !!
You're REALLY getting there when you can place accents ANYWHERE, first stroke, second stroke, singles, etc,
Rocky
rocknrollkat
Junior Member
Larry, Like I pointed out, there should be no audible difference between singles and doubles. The secret is PRACTICE !!
Seriously, LISTEN to what you're doing, and adjust your techique accordingly.
There's no magic involved, just PRACTICE with good technique.
Rocky