Playing multiple different tempos at the same time with different limbs

Wish I could say the same, Gvdetc. I can't cop any of their stuff note for note, except maybe Showbiz Kids :) I just play the songs. The slackest form of practice imaginable, but the most fun ...

Home at Last and Babylon Sisters - the Purdie halftime shuffle - faaantastic! He rips on Kid Charlemaine, The Fez and Green Earrings too. All of his songs are massive fun to cover :)

Pls pardon digression, people. This sort of thing can happen with SD tragics ...
 
I maintain that once you're able to play quarter notes in unrelated tempos with each limb, and switch between any tempo with any limb on the fly, you're truly independent and able to play anything from the New Breed...etc... easily.

And how can one disregard the exercise as being 'unmusical' entirely?

No-one knows how music will evolve - for example, in Bach's era, syncopation was considered unmusical, whereas now it is commonplace.

A band like Meshuggah who focus on polymetric groupings now has a wide following to the extent of pioneering their own subgenre, and having a band that plays in two or more unrelated tempos is just a logical extension of that.

It would be possible to compose music entirely of tones that are above and below the range of human hearing. Would it be music? Yes. Could anyone even hear it? No.

For an intellectual and technical exercise, the ability to play different tempos on different limbs is fascinating. Most musicians and audiences enjoy music in a fairly narrow range of tempos, meters, tones and rhythms.
 
I maintain that once you're able to play quarter notes in unrelated tempos with each limb, and switch between any tempo with any limb on the fly, you're truly independent and able to play anything from the New Breed...etc... easily.

And how can one disregard the exercise as being 'unmusical' entirely?

No-one knows how music will evolve - for example, in Bach's era, syncopation was considered unmusical, whereas now it is commonplace.

A band like Meshuggah who focus on polymetric groupings now has a wide following to the extent of pioneering their own subgenre, and having a band that plays in two or more unrelated tempos is just a logical extension of that.

So, once you're able to play unrelated tempos, you're able to play related ones with syncopated figures? Infinitely doubtful, but let's check the math:

- Assume integer tempos, from 50 to 150 (faster tempos can be achieved by playing double time) = 100.

- Let's assume the independence is 2-way. Each of the 4 limbs will first be the "reference limb", and then the other three limbs will each be the "tempo changing" limb. So, with four limbs, there are 12 ways to practice each exercise.

- Only play quarter notes. No other subdivisions.

So, to practice quarter notes at unrelated tempos, the number of exercises that must be mastered is 100 X 12 = 1200.

Now, to practice "switching between any tempo on the fly". The number of permutations that exist in the 1200 exercises = 1200! (1200 factorial) = A number so big that most calculators and computers answer "Infinity".
 
So what's the prob Brent?

New calculator?

:)
 
Wish I could say the same, Gvdetc. I can't cop any of their stuff note for note, except maybe Showbiz Kids :) I just play the songs. The slackest form of practice imaginable, but the most fun ...

Home at Last and Babylon Sisters - the Purdie halftime shuffle - faaantastic! He rips on Kid Charlemaine, The Fez and Green Earrings too. All of his songs are massive fun to cover :)

Pls pardon digression, people. This sort of thing can happen with SD tragics ...

just got off back from playing Kid Charlemagne about 20 times trying to get it as exact as possible to the record

I love doing that

I definitely thought of you
 
Yes I've tried doing this sort of thing, hard to do, but it's fun to try :).

Done some videos of rhythm phasing with Bounce Metronome, you can try playing along with them.

E.g. this one to get started, simple rhythm in both hands but slightly different tempo for each one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=177t..._zOfMx-pCa6qAAMppm&index=5&feature=plpp_video

Play list of all the rhythm phasing videos so far here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgeI...LVC-L_zOfMx-pCa6qAAMppm&feature=plpp_play_all

You can make these rhythms in Bounce Metronome's Drum & Dance rhythm editor in the new version 4.3 which I released yesterday.
http://bouncemetronome.com/blog/201209/bounce-metronome-43-release

BTW in case of confusion - I'm not a drummer myself, my instrument is the recorder, but often play along with the Bounce rhythms with a couple of drum sticks and a practice pad while testing the program, and to have a go at learning some of the rhythms myself :).

Any particular requests for videos like this be sure to say, interested in new ideas of videos to upload to show Bounce Metronome's capabilities :)
 
I've tried a similar approach in the past and was quite successful with it.
But in some points, my approach differs a lot from the OPs.

First the tempos were aligned in a specific way, so that every 36 "ticks", the 3 limbs were hitting together. Second I did not use a metronome, and instead tried to focus one limb at a time (switching the limb leading role) and tried to let the other limbs go by themselves.

So even if I wasn't successful in playing this pattern correctly, it did improve my independence considerably. One side-effect was - like others have mentioned - that this pattern then did go over into the real playing. So I'm a little questioning your approach of using tempos that do not align together.
 
I maintain that once you're able to play quarter notes in unrelated tempos with each limb, and switch between any tempo with any limb on the fly, you're truly independent and able to play anything from the New Breed...etc... easily.

And how can one disregard the exercise as being 'unmusical' entirely?

No-one knows how music will evolve - for example, in Bach's era, syncopation was considered unmusical, whereas now it is commonplace.

A band like Meshuggah who focus on polymetric groupings now has a wide following to the extent of pioneering their own subgenre, and having a band that plays in two or more unrelated tempos is just a logical extension of that.

In a word, NO.

The brain simply doesn't work like that. Mastery of one single coordination pattern does not automatically grant you mastery over similar coordination patterns.

I can play 19 over 2. That does NOT grant me ability to hear and feel 11 over 2. The ratio of 9.5 to 1 is what Im playing in the first case and 5.5 to 1 in the second. I had to earn each one.

There is no one alive on the planet, including Mangini and Minneman (who are past Lang on this stuff) who is truly independent. It's all an illusion of true independence. All of the patterns are relating to each other and to the overall pattern in some definable way. That exact relationship was explored by practicing as many permutations of notes against it as possible. The performance you hear is composed of those pre-practiced permutations linked together by the performing artist in a stream of consciousness. It's NOT just coming out of nowhere.

It's not true independence in the sense that entirely non-related patterns are not just flying out of nowhere.

And playing quarter notes against each other would only be scratching the surface anyway. What about coordinating actual musical phrases or cycles of phrases against those notes? Take your crazy quarter notes and now play one of them in a cycle of 11 and another in a cycle of 13 and another in a cycle of 46.357... It never ends.

I know what you driving at, and it is unrealistic. You would be old before you got anything accomplished.

Here's are some more "realistic" lifetime coordination goals:

1. To be able to play "Extreme Interdependence" cover to cover as Marco can. 1000-2000 hours practice.

2. To be able to play common subdivisions between any two or more limbs and be able to voice common subdivisions against them. This would take 5-10 thousand hours for example.

3. To be able to play all subdivisions from 1-20 notes per beat in the same way. This might take an ADDITIONAL 10-20 thousand hours. I have no idea. No one on earth has truly reached this point.

Im not kidding, you are looking at YEARS of woodshedding just to be able to get to #2 and that is nowhere near to the machine like concept you are discussing.

And none of the stuff in #2 will actually make you be able to play a better songo or make your jazz swing. BTW.

The idea of practicing some crazy technical exercise so that "normal stuff will be easier" has limited application. You get good at what you practice and play. If you never actually play songs and just play technical exercises, your song playing will suffer.

The reason why people are calling your concept "unmusical" is because it is. It's just pure math. There is absolutely no connection between the exercise concept and any song that anyone has ever played or sung on this planet. Ever. So your arguments about syncopation (besides being Euro-Centric) being thought of as unmusical during Bach's time are off. People actually use syncopation to create music.
 
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And none of the stuff in #2 will actually make you be able to play a better songo or make your jazz swing. BTW.

Bam!

I'm just riffing here, but one of the things that concerns me is that many of the directions in independence being pursued these days are inherently inward-looking. In a word: narcissistic. Playing a good songo or making your jazz swing are outward-looking activities. Swing is about how we make other musicians and audience members feel and I'd argue that it can't truly be measured outside the context of playing with other musicians. It's about finding a place in the time that makes this moment feel good, and it's a little bit different with every combination of musicians that takes the stand. So much of what seems to grabbing the fancy of drummers these days is stuff that is solitary and abstract.

Again, just riffing, not a fully formed thought...
 
In a word, NO.

The brain simply doesn't work like that. Mastery of one single coordination pattern does not automatically grant you mastery over similar coordination patterns.

Here's are some more "realistic" lifetime coordination goals:

2. To be able to play common subdivisions between any two or more limbs and be able to voice common subdivisions against them. This would take 5-10 thousand hours for example.

Im not kidding, you are looking at YEARS of woodshedding just to be able to get to #2 and that is nowhere near to the machine like concept you are discussing.

And none of the stuff in #2 will actually make you be able to play a better songo or make your jazz swing. BTW.

Your post is fabulous~!



Bam!

I'm just riffing here, but one of the things that concerns me is that many of the directions in independence being pursued these days are inherently inward-looking. In a word: narcissistic. Playing a good songo or making your jazz swing are outward-looking activities. Swing is about how we make other musicians and audience members feel and I'd argue that it can't truly be measured outside the context of playing with other musicians. It's about finding a place in the time that makes this moment feel good, and it's a little bit different with every combination of musicians that takes the stand. So much of what seems to grabbing the fancy of drummers these days is stuff that is solitary and abstract.

Again, just riffing, not a fully formed thought...

Agreed 100% I do think though that an evolution of sorts may exist.

I do think though a thorough understanding and development of independence is necessary to play what you want to within the context of the musical situation you are in. That may mean something different depending on style of music.

But at a certain point, it gets in the way of the fundamental reason why we do this in the first place - to create music. It seems (at least for me - and as J. Blackley describes) is that the ego gets in the way and creates the "Hey, look at me!" syndrome.

I know for me now that I've spent so much time shedding the crazy independence stuff, I've come full circle and am now back to practicing some simpler things that when really given though to, are very, very difficult. All built around developing and enhancing the pulse. It's like starting over.
 
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