groove vs chops?

I never commented on it.

Come on mate........

And Justice and the Black album were recorded that way too.

You bloody well did comment on it.

Look, I've got no dog in this fight. I love the band......they've brought me immense joy since the mid eighties. Shit, I can even cop the period in the mid nineties that everyone else seems to hate. I couldn't give a toss how they laid down their tracks.....the end result moves me no end.

But fair's fair, right? You've gotta stop insulting people's intelligence whilst blatantly neglecting to dot your own I's and cross your own T's in the process. It's just not a good look and isn't serving the argument you're trying to make.
 
Why aren't you guys all up in Watsos business over his Ride the Lightning comments. They were way out there compared to mine. I did mention And Justice when I was making a point about Lightning. Not one of you said "hey Watso he's got a point, oh by the by Dog Justice did have that kind of editing". If you had I would have said "oops", or "my mistake". Instead I was told I was wrong that they did have digital punch editing back when Lightning was made, and then shown a link to some obscure article about a different album. I don't think that I "insulted" anyone (not in this steely group), least of all their intelligence. Couple a guys around here show very little respect indeed though, and I thought that was this sites mantra.
 
Yea, guys. My business has nobody up in it right now. Obviously I need a lashing here. Hop to it!

http://www.drumsetcymbalsblog.com/drummers/lars-ulrich-metallica-drum-techniques

I can see how you read it that way, and I apologize for being confusing, but I was only mentioning the lightning album because it was a childhood fav. As soon as I started seeing how much of a tard Lars could be on a regular basis, I have to admit, I lost some respect for him and his drumming.
 
No worries Dr Watso. I apologize for dragging you into it. Originally I just wanted to say to you that I didn't think Ride could have been done that way. Just a misunderstanding in the end. Lars' glowing personality aside, he actually did play just like his recordings. Not so much these days. If he was just okay then well he's really a shadow of that now.
 
Pasting was not an option in recording back in 1983. I don't think you could even punch edit back then. Not to mention punch editing isn't really used for drums anyway. Hate to ruin your newer, lesser opinion of Lars but he played those takes from start to finish back then. No Pro-Tools not even a computer in the room. And Justice and the Black album were recorded that way too. Although by the Black album they had automated software to mix with and digital punch-edit capabilities.

How did we go from Ride the Lightning being "pieced together note for note" to And justice for all being punch edited together in snippets a couple minute long? I never commented on it.t"

How? Because you yourself made the comment connecting 1983 to Justice and the Black album, in your very own worlds, saying that they were done the same way.
 
This thread has officially become nonsensical. I have no idea what point is being made due to all the antagonism and misinformation.

I felt old when The SunDog didn't believe that people used to cut and splice tape. my first internship in high school was purely 8 hrs a day of cutting and splicing tape. There was a story that Yes used to have dozens of little strips of tape hanging from the ceiling labeled with the musical sections and they arranged their music there in the studio. Not sure how true it is but it sure sounds like them. Either way, it is common knowledge that the first Metallica records were pasted together. I'm surprised it was even argued about.

I also like it when someone says that they could have done a better job on a song that sold like 3 trillion copies and made the band a household name. I guess "One" would have been better with our young XXX friend on it instead of Lars. At least we wouldn't have had such a "dumb groove". I said the same thing in sophomore year of high school about Nicko McBrain. Maybe it's an age thing, not sure.

And to call What is Tony a name dropper is hilarious, if you knew who he played with, you'd shit.
 
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This thread has officially become nonsensical. I have no idea what point is being made due to all the antagonism and misinformation.

i have to admit, I felt old when The SunDog didn't believe that people used to cut and splice tape. my first internship in high school was purely 8 hrs a day of cutting and splicing tape.
And to call What is Tony a name dropper is hilarious, if you knew who he played with, you'd shit.
Sorry Jeff, think you've lost it mate. I mean, cutting tape with razor blades & putting it back together again? Really? C'mon - I know splicing tape didn't exist because I still have a couple of rolls of it stashed somewhere. Nonexistent chinagraph pencils too, & I believe "flying edits" required an aviation qualification back in the day. I mean, maybe plate reverb actually used a plate as long as the control room! Yeah right - & as for that Tony guy, he never gets out of his bedroom - erm sorry, AKA awesome drum cover studio ;) ;) ;)
 
So is it groove vs chops vs name dropping vs ignoring technological facts now?
Did I forget something?

Stop splicing hairs - go splicing tapes ;-)
 
How? Because you yourself made the comment connecting 1983 to Justice and the Black album, in your very own worlds, saying that they were done the same way.

Your out of the loop man. We're way past that. You know, that whole misunderstandings and apologies part of the thread. Keep reading, you'll get there.
 
Of course you're entitled to your own opinion.

However, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't carry on as you are offline, so why do it online?

I have no interest in proving your argument wrong; as this is all a matter of unsubstantiated and pointless opinion such a thing is not even possible.

You on the other hand are doing an excellent job in proving yourself to be argumentative and unpleasant to deal with.

The truth, as you pointed out, hurts.

Oh...almost forgot to add. Lol!

so the truth is im unpleasant? im cool wit that lol dude if you were to ask me on the street what i thought of metal drummers i would tell you most of them cant groove for shittt..but like i said i am not saying all..i said most..and LARS suxxxx lol
 
I also like it when someone says that they could have done a better job on a song that sold like 3 trillion copies and made the band a household name. I guess "One" would have been better with our young XXX friend on it instead of Lars. At least we wouldn't have had such a "dumb groove". I said the same thing in sophomore year of high school about Nicko McBrain. Maybe it's an age thing, not sure.
.

What does it matter if it sold trillions of copies? I would make every Metallica album better guaranteed lol Just like i would make every Beatles album better that sold kagillions of copies.
 
so the truth is im unpleasant? im cool wit that lol dude if you were to ask me on the street what i thought of metal drummers i would tell you most of them cant groove for shittt..but like i said i am not saying all..i said most..and LARS suxxxx lol

Do you really think that metal drummers are only that? They have to start from the beginning just like everyone else. Learning how to groove is part of the process.

What does it matter if it sold trillions of copies? I would make every Metallica album better guaranteed lol Just like i would make every Beatles album better that sold kagillions of copies.

Wow you sure are full of your self. You want to know how you can make Drummerworld a better place too? You can shut up and go away with your ignorant ass.
 
What does it matter if it sold trillions of copies? I would make every Metallica album better guaranteed lol Just like i would make every Beatles album better that sold kagillions of copies.

Right ,and if my grandmother had wheels,she'd be a wagon.

No record in human history has sold "trillions" or "kagillions" of copies.

You...could make the Beatles ...better.Please stop huffing paint thinner,and put the water pipe down.Extraordinary claims,require extraordinary evidence to back it up.You haven't furnished anything close to that.

Your continued use of poor grammar,lack of sentence structure,lack of capitalization and the ad-nauseium use of "lol",makes my eyes water.It also makes it difficult to even read your posts,which propose "post hoc,ergo,propter hoc" logic are as irritating as they are devoid of cohesive reasoning.

Please go back to the Pearl drummers forum,to share your pearls(yes intended) of wisdom.Your unfriendly demeanor, from post number one,clearly demonstrates that you have no desire to blend in with our community,and demonstrates a lack of desire to contribute to DW.

You also seem to feel that opinions are either right or wrong,which simply isn't the case.You do however, seem to feel that your opinions ARE fact,which is misguided and hollow at best.

Please feel free to contribute and remain a member here,but if you continue your current proclivity to argue for the sake of argument,then I think your time here will be short.

Steve B
 
Do you really think that metal drummers are only that? They have to start from the beginning just like everyone else. Learning how to groove is part of the process.

I get that metal music isn't everyones cup of tea. But it is a massive genre with a lot of sub genres and covers a lot of different playing styles and speeds.

Along with what Mr Polack says above, I wish as a community we could all cut a little more slack to the metal drummers out there. metal drumming isn't all speed and constant double kick notes.
 
If you listen closely, it often takes a great deal of technique to groove well. Articulation, beat placement, subtle brushes of the hi-hat, ghost notes, consistency, how clean your playing is, and most importantly, how it sounds and feels...there's no sense in throwing in recycled licks all or even most of the time, especially if they aren't musical in their application.

Jeff Porcaro, Steve Gadd, Carlos Vega, Vinnie Colaiuta, and Manu Katche are examples of great "groove" drummers who not just have well above-average chops (especially guys like Vinnie), but also use their chops and toolboxes to mold and shape the musicality and feel of their grooves.

It's not an either/or question.
 
If you listen closely, it often takes a great deal of technique to groove well. Articulation, beat placement, subtle brushes of the hi-hat, ghost notes, consistency, how clean your playing is, and most importantly, how it sounds and feels...there's no sense in throwing in recycled licks all or even most of the time, especially if they aren't musical in their application.

Jeff Porcaro, Steve Gadd, Carlos Vega, Vinnie Colaiuta, and Manu Katche are examples of great "groove" drummers who not just have well above-average chops (especially guys like Vinnie), but also use their chops and toolboxes to mold and shape the musicality and feel of their grooves.

It's not an either/or question.

Glad this thread is heading back into sanity. Well said it is not an either or thing. Like asking an athlete speed vs power. But it can be a matter of emphasis depending on your definition of chops and groove. My vote on this question depends on when it was asked. If you asked me when I was 20 I was focused on chops because it draws attention to one's self (get the girls, impress other drummers). Now past 50 I would say groove. Makes everyone in the band sound better and appeals to a general audience. But most folks wont even know you are a superior groove drummer (not talking about myself here, pretty mediocre chops and groove) they will just enjoy the groove. My dad was a drummer and he had no time for my technical/chop development. He said if the audience is dancing or tapping their foot, nodding their head, then you are a successful drummer. My chops surpassed his pretty quickly. But he got work and musician loved his playing because it enhanced their playing. If chops are just tools maybe it is hard for a guy with a huge tool box to just play 2 and 4 all night. If you have a fast car aren't you going to want to open it up at least once in a while - I guess the balance to chops is not groove but self restraint.
 


Actually chops IS groove. Think Superman and Clark Kent.

...

LOL! I love it. Although I mostly disagree :eek:

"Chops" is technique, or how you do something. Nearly always, and certainly in the course of this discussion, chops means the physical movements a player makes, specifically in regards to speed and dexterity.

Groove is a state of mind - a state of organization where everything lines up and swings together. (This is observable with brain scans, see the first book listed in my signature)

Now, you can have musical chops. These intersect with physicality (how can they not?) but they are not really two sides of the same coin. You can know all your fighting styles and master of the 1 inch punch but not be able to win a basic street fight.

Having great physical technique will certainly allow you to groove harder, but even those with minimal technique can groove hard on easy songs. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you can groove without playing a note. Watch Taj Mahal live, for example, and you'll be in the groove before he plays anything.
 
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