More Creative on a Smaller Kit

I'm not sure how this relates but I was listening to Jakob Dylan's One Headlight with Matt Chamberlain, and it's just kick, snare, and hi-hat. No toms, ride cymbal, or even a crash. I don't know if he had his full setup right there in front of him or not, but what restraint! I don't think I could have done that with other "red buttons" taunting me. It sounds soo good, and he's clearly having fun with it - he's the man!

Does anyone here cover that song? Can you get through it without even one crash hit?
 
I'm not sure how this relates but I was listening to Jakob Dylan's One Headlight with Matt Chamberlain and that is just kick, snare, and hi-hat. No toms, ride cymbal, or even a crash. I don't know if he had his full setup right there in front of him or not, but what restraint. I don't think I could have done that with other "red buttons" taunting me. It sounds soo good - he's the man!


such flawless drumming in that song.... I have always thought so

he actually does hit a tom in that Motown - ish fill he does in the first verse I think.... but so great

the little fill introducing the third verse after the chorus is perfection

really good song
 
Great discussion.

I don't buy into the notion that backbeat music doesn't have the capacity for creativity that say jazz does. I do believe that there's more total time spent exercising creativity in jazz, it's just the nature of the music. So there's less amount of creativity in backbeat music, but the same capacity, if that makes sense. Creativity...if a person is truly creative, restraints can't contain that. The creativity may have to take a different, maybe a not as in your face route, but the capacity for creativity is not diminished. Creativity in backbeat music just has to be redirected in an manner that adds to, and doesn't detract, from the music. JMO. It's like no you can't take the superhighway to be creative. You have to take the back roads. But you still get there.

The general consensus here is that that less pieces forces creativity, which I don't really subscribe to. But by that model, music that has strict restraints should force creativity too right? Same principle. Only I'm detecting a double standard. It's been stated here that blues has too many restraints and you can only do so much. It doesn't go both ways. And creativity is not an end goal unto itself, great music is the end goal.

Like if I get to be creative say 20 seconds out of a 4 minute song, and a jazz player gets to be creative for 2 minutes out of a 4 minute song, and both songs have an equally wonderful response from a tough crowd, does it really matter that one guy got to create "more"? Or is the total resolved product more important than the amount of time each individual gets to use for their own creativity? I'm going with the latter.

I will gladly concede that jazz players in the real world play much more creatively than backbeat music players, the musical landscape is more conducive to that. Creativity in backbeat music takes on a different more subtle form IMO, that's not as easily detected as creativity in jazz. And not all backbeat music is the height of creativity or even creative of course, as is with jazz. JMO. The little nuanced stuff I do goes right by most people, and more musicians than I'd like to admit, where when a jazz drummer is being creative, it's way easier to spot is all I'm saying.

To even suggest that certain kinds of music stifles creativity...to any degree...in my mind goes against the very foundations of what music is.
 
such flawless drumming in that song.... I have always thought so

he actually does hit a tom in that Motown - ish fill he does in the first verse I think.... but so great

the little fill introducing the third verse after the chorus is perfection

really good song
Just listened again and you're right - he did sneak in a tom hit (I found two more at about 2:30 and 4:-ish minutes in). Still no crash cymbals anywhere. Good call, Tony.

That rat-bastard!

And I agree: absolutely flawless drumming.

I remember reading somewhere that his minimalist drum part was some inside joke/challenge between him and the bass player. Cool that it wasn't a producer-directed decision, and I'm really glad he played it that way. Makes my day every time I hear it.
 
Great discussion.

I don't buy into the notion that backbeat music doesn't have the capacity for creativity that say jazz does. I do believe that there's more total time spent exercising creativity in jazz, it's just the nature of the music. So there's less amount of creativity in backbeat music, but the same capacity, if that makes sense. Creativity...if a person is truly creative, restraints can't contain that. The creativity may have to take a different, maybe a not as in your face route, but the capacity for creativity is not diminished. Creativity in backbeat music just has to be redirected in an manner that adds to, and doesn't detract, from the music. JMO. It's like no you can't take the superhighway to be creative. You have to take the back roads. But you still get there.

The general consensus here is that that less pieces forces creativity, which I don't really subscribe to. But by that model, music that has strict restraints should force creativity too right? Same principle. Only I'm detecting a double standard. It's been stated here that blues has too many restraints and you can only do so much. It doesn't go both ways. And creativity is not an end goal unto itself, great music is the end goal.

Like if I get to be creative say 20 seconds out of a 4 minute song, and a jazz player gets to be creative for 2 minutes out of a 4 minute song, and both songs have an equally wonderful response from a tough crowd, does it really matter that one guy got to create "more"? Or is the total resolved product more important than the amount of time each individual gets to use for their own creativity? I'm going with the latter.

I will gladly concede that jazz players in the real world play much more creatively than backbeat music players, the musical landscape is more conducive to that. Creativity in backbeat music takes on a different more subtle form IMO, that's not as easily detected as creativity in jazz. And not all backbeat music is the height of creativity or even creative of course, as is with jazz. JMO. The little nuanced stuff I do goes right by most people, and more musicians than I'd like to admit, where when a jazz drummer is being creative, it's way easier to spot is all I'm saying.

To even suggest that certain kinds of music stifles creativity...to any degree...in my mind goes against the very foundations of what music is.

I hope it wasn't my post that prompted this response

if it was I'm afraid you misunderstood me completely.... which is ok as well .... I've never been much good at organizing thoughts into words

:)
 
Great discussion.

I don't buy into the notion that backbeat music doesn't have the capacity for creativity that say jazz does. I do believe that there's more total time spent exercising creativity in jazz, it's just the nature of the music. So there's less amount of creativity in backbeat music, but the same capacity, if that makes sense. Creativity...if a person is truly creative, restraints can't contain that. The creativity may have to take a different, maybe a not as in your face route, but the capacity for creativity is not diminished. Creativity in backbeat music just has to be redirected in an manner that adds to, and doesn't detract, from the music.

True there can be much creativity in other genres. I do think the range of tolerance can be stifled by others you’re playing with. Some people want the person to play a song exactly how it’s been recorded and don’t stray. Personally – I no longer work with these types. We don’t get along in the least musically.

Most Jazz has no barriers. It makes the basic assumption that everything you are going to play is spontaneous. The basic form, chord changes and even the melody of the song can be - and has been - slightly dealt with differently. In my opinion the goal is to still make the song recognizable by the audience who would know the song in general.



The general consensus here is that that less pieces forces creativity, which I don't really subscribe to. But by that model, music that has strict restraints should force creativity too right? Same principle. Only I'm detecting a double standard. It's been stated here that blues has too many restraints and you can only do so much. It doesn't go both ways. And creativity is not an end goal unto itself, great music is the end goal.

Agreed. I said this in my first post.

At the end of the day we are all here to create music. If you find it helpful to have 60 pieces to make that happen - use 60 pieces. If you find you can do it with 4 - use 4…..

Make music with whatever you feel like using. You're no less or more of a better musician based solely on the number of voices you have at your disposal. Your musicianship will be or should be based on many other factors before the number of drums or cymbals.


I will gladly concede that jazz players in the real world play much more creatively than backbeat music players, the musical landscape is more conducive to that. Creativity in backbeat music takes on a different more subtle form IMO, that's not as easily detected as creativity in jazz. And not all backbeat music is the height of creativity or even creative of course, as is with jazz. JMO. The little nuanced stuff I do goes right by most people, and more musicians than I'd like to admit, where when a jazz drummer is being creative, it's way easier to spot is all I'm saying.

Again, it’s the nature of any spontaneously improvised music – jazz or otherwise.

I’ve played a gazillion gigs playing and recording backbeat music. And – yes – most of the subtleties have gone over most peoples “care zone”. Most likely the only one who knew it was there was me.

Lastly, let’s not forget that the range of creativity is also restricted by the players overall vocabulary. Regardless of style or setup.
 
there are a lot times to me where a players restraint is strikingly and unbelievably creative .... not to mention impressive and absolutely beautiful

"... I love how he did absolutely nothing there.... I would not have thought to do that "

.... type thing

ideas man.... ideas

it's all in the ideas
 
Some of what you said influenced my thoughts for sure Ant. And just for the record, I am in agreement with nearly everything you said. I guess the one thing that I don't quite see eye to eye was is the notion that in a song like Pride and Joy, you really can't stray far, which is true. My only issue is that implies that there is more satisfying genres to play. BUT.... if a soloist is really good, and easy to latch onto, I can tailor a drum part that can see where the soloist is going, and we can go there as one. I like to think of it as the way Jim Gordon would play off Eric Clapton's leads, same principle. Jim's playing was a supportive response to Eric's phrasing. He's a great listener. Musically, that is so satisfying for this drummer, I am lacking for nothing.

Drummers usually are linked to the bass player, but in my band, the bass player is the weak link. So all my ideas are based on the stellar guitarist's playing in my band. This guy is so easy to latch onto, and I know his style so well after all these years. It's rhythmic, so it's easy for me to predict. His style and what I personally want to hear from a guitarist...are so close, that there's a real genuine symbiosis between us. So it's not creativity on my part so much as reactivity to what Don plays, which is easily if not more satisfying than lone creativity in my mind, because we do it as a team.

I'm just using yours and other's thoughts to wrangle this topic together in my own mind. It's all subjective anyway.

Per David's assertion that a drummer is limited by the other players limits, so true.

Blues can sound just horrid played by people who don't really get it.
 
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Lastly, let’s not forget that the range of creativity is also restricted by the players overall vocabulary. Regardless of style or setup.
Most regrettably, this is the single biggest defining aspect that applies to me in this thread. I have all the imagination & creativity in the world, but sadly lack the ability to translate that to the instrument. No amount of drum voice reduction is going to cure that anytime soon, & no amount of extra "tomage" will disguise that fact either :(
 
Creativity, or the lack thereof, can exist in any form of music, on any size of drumset. Creativity exists solely in the space between a musician's ears.

I think it's hilarious to bash blues as "non-creative" for drummers, because every time I do it, I find ways to be creative. Let's play around with the dynamics. Let's use rims. Let's play this entire song on kick and snare. Time to use brushes and my snare case. As long as it doesn't detract from the song, it's fair game.

In stark contrast, I don't have enough knowledge of jazz developed to be creative in that genre. I'm going spangalang over here, chick chick over here, and dropping a bass note every now and then. I feel constrained there, but if I applied myself, I'm pretty confident I could be just as creative there.

I'm enjoying reading through this thread, like Tony, for the really deep comments about creativity and what makes us creative. Thanks for some stimulating discussion.
 
Creativity, or the lack thereof, can exist in any form of music, on any size of drumset. Creativity exists solely in the space between a musician's ears.

I think it's hilarious to bash blues as "non-creative" for drummers, because every time I do it, I find ways to be creative. Let's play around with the dynamics. Let's use rims. Let's play this entire song on kick and snare. Time to use brushes and my snare case. As long as it doesn't detract from the song, it's fair game.

In stark contrast, I don't have enough knowledge of jazz developed to be creative in that genre. I'm going spangalang over here, chick chick over here, and dropping a bass note every now and then. I feel constrained there, but if I applied myself, I'm pretty confident I could be just as creative there.

I'm enjoying reading through this thread, like Tony, for the really deep comments about creativity and what makes us creative. Thanks for some stimulating discussion.

I don't recall reading anyone bashing blues as "non creative"
 
I'm feeling the need to clarify what I was talking about in a previous post

I'm coming mostly from a jazz frame of mind and most of those I am discussing with are coming from a "back beat" based frame of mind.... for lack of a better term

I am for the most part creating 100% on the spot .... that gives us an enormous canvas... and the music itself allows for an enormous canvas

for example.... just a simple stupid example

you are on the stand with a killin blues band ... say you are playing Sweet Home Chicago.... killin it.... if you implied some metric modulation somewhere in the progression ... you might get fired right after the set ...

now say you are at Smalls with a burnin jazz band... playing whatever tune ... and you do the same thing and pull it off flawlessly .... you will most likely get smiles from everyone on the stand

I am in no way implying that Sweet Home Chicago has no canvas.... it has an gorgeous canvas.... but you can't leave that shuffle.... or at least you shouldn't
...of course you can get creative ... with dynamics... push and pull the tune... whatever ... that is what the music is made of ....

but the canvas is not nearly as broad nor does it induce or promote or present as many opportunities to implement all the ideas that may be flying through your head at any given second

... and again.... creativity is not always WHAT you play

there are a lot times to me where a players restraint is strikingly and unbelievably creative .... not to mention impressive and absolutely beautiful

"... I love how he did absolutely nothing there.... I would not have thought to do that "

.... type thing

ideas man.... ideas

it's all in the ideas
 
..... now say you are at Smalls with a burnin jazz band... playing whatever tune ... and you do the same thing and pull it off flawlessly .... you will most likely get smiles from everyone on the stand

Ever gig there Ant? Let me know if you do. I love that place. Spent many, many hours there watching and learning.
 
What you said is dead on Ant. Jazz canvas is enormous. I wouldn't know where to start.

You raised another point I want to explore. You mentioned metric modulation.

I have to ask, in jazz, when a soloist is soloing, is it acceptable to just drop a metric modulation whenever the urge surfaces, with no regard to where the soloist is in their solo?

Like in my mind you can't just drop them in anywhere, there has to be a musical reason beyond just wanting to put one in somewhere.

Or can you really just drop them in anywhere and it's all good?
 
What you said is dead on Ant. Jazz canvas is enormous. I wouldn't know where to start.

You raised another point I want to explore. You mentioned metric modulation.

I have to ask, in jazz, when a soloist is soloing, is it acceptable to just drop a metric modulation whenever the urge surfaces, with no regard to where the soloist is in their solo?

Like in my mind you can't just drop them in anywhere, there has to be a musical reason beyond just wanting to put one in somewhere.

Or can you really just drop them in anywhere and it's all good?

when you imply metric modulation ... you are not dropping time at all..

everyone on the stand knows where the time is and it won't... or shouldn't ... affect them at all .... they are keep time just as much as I am

and it would be more about WHERE you placed the modulation than it would be that you modulated at all ... sort of like with a bass player..... it's all about the notes he selects

if I did drop it somewhere it would be completely spontaneous ... and less of a conscious thought..... so I would just be naturally responding to something that my ears grabbed onto that sparked that idea
 
I don't recall reading anyone bashing blues as "non creative"

Not specifically blues, but "backbeat music"... and no, nobody was, I'm supporting Larry's position (and yours too). I agree with both of you that creativity is not about the genre of music, or the instrument it's played on, but rather the approach.

I like the example of "One Headlight" - a great example of when less is more, and that fits my definition of "creative" all day long. That song could have been much less memorable with a "creative" drum part, when all it needed was what was played.
 
Another thing about my standpoint is that 80% of the time, when I'm playing drums, I'm either working on writing, or rehearsing originals. I also play some covers, but usually in those instances, I really, really don't need more than a 4 piece to make them sound right.

Anyway, my drumming world is filled with opportunity to be creative. I'm writing my own parts, and doing that with fewer voices comes up with more interesting stuff, again, in my case.
 
I have to ask, in jazz, when a soloist is soloing, is it acceptable to just drop a metric modulation whenever the urge surfaces, with no regard to where the soloist is in their solo?

Like in my mind you can't just drop them in anywhere, there has to be a musical reason beyond just wanting to put one in somewhere.

Or can you really just drop them in anywhere and it's all good?
This gets to the heart of an intersting topic that could fill an entire thread of its own about improvisation.

In group improvisational music, the burden of leading where the improvisation goes isn't placed on any one member. It's like a conversation. In fact, it's exactly like a conversation. There is a time to listen and a time to talk. But there's no rule book to tell you when that is. It's happening constantly, within an organic structure that is elastic. There is an interaction amongst the band members. The skill of the musicians—both in terms of listening and playing—is a factor in deciding what is appropriate and when.

So depending on the musicians involved and the form of the tune, you sometimes can drop something like a metric modulation almost anywhere, providing you're playing with cats who can handle it. The beauty of this music is that it's not all mapped out for you in advance. There's an outline to follow, but it's up to the musicians to make it happen; to know when to speak and when to let someone else speak.

If the drummer is really strong and has an advanced musical vision, he or she may be the one to lead the creative process, if he or she so chooses. Or beyond skill levels alone, there are moments of inspiration that are transient; one night you've got it, another night you don't. That can affect what happens on the bandstand as well.
 
. so I would just be naturally responding to something that my ears grabbed onto that sparked that idea

OK so this sheds light. So in a way, we are both playing off the others. Being's I don't really speak the language of jazz, it seems to me that the players....at times....to me....it seems like they aren't listening to one another and just playing the song individually. For instance like during a hard bop sax solo. On paper I know that sounds pretty bad, and I know that can't be the way it is, but to someone who isn't hip to the language...that's how it seems....at times. It feels disconnected to me, even though my logical mind knows there is a connection. I just can't grasp it a lot of the time. Jazz is on a much higher level than I am capable of understanding....at this point in my journey anyway.
 
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