So how's this for bitter?

M

Matt Bo Eder

Guest
As some of you know, I'm recording myself with some new gear. But, in visiting some other home recording-type forums, it made me happy to be on this forum. I was searching for different ways of miking up a bass drum with no port, and on most of these other 'recording' forums, a lot of the discussion got instantly snarky when these people were confronted with drummers who didn't have a port on their front head, or who refused to take the front head off at all.

I seriously wanted to register just so I could return the snarkiness!

So, if you want to record your bass drum with no port, or don't want to remove your front head, you instantly "want to ruin your own recording", or you're "too stupid for your own good", or "you just want to ruin the process for the entire band". Literally, these are some of the things I've read.

I realize, they're just forums, and there aren't any real professionals on these things (I guess), but it blows my mind to think that there can be a whole generation of people into recording who never listened to or studied the work of Led Zeppelin? Or what of the great big band drummers from the 50s and 60s? They certainly didn't close mic the drums back then!

Or am I being too romantic about those old techniques? I did find a couple of articles on real pros who talked about miking bass drums from the outside. They were not phased by the fact that the bass drum would have no hole or full front head, they just explained what they did to capture that sound. Of course, I'm all about working with engineers to get a good recorded sound, but when did "working with the engineer" mean that you're just there to dismantle your bass drum so they can do what they do?

Needless to say, I was stunned at the downright anger and arrogance of those recording forum members. The fact that recording a bass drum with the front head on meant you were doomed to failure is puzzling. I thought if you were a true artist, you'd at least check it out and see what you can do.

Yes, I realize that 95% of the time you're hearing bass drums on recordings and in live situations with mics stuck inside of them. However, that means 95% of the recordings out there sound exactly the SAME. Way to go internet - spawning sameness the world over. And then, as if society fights back about this, the people we notice and give accolades to are the ones who do everything wrong and create something totally unique! What is it with these humans anyway? Not breaking the rules, yet getting recognized when they totally break the rules? Just an observation.

Just venting. Sorry.
 
As some of you know, I'm recording myself with some new gear. But, in visiting some other home recording-type forums, it made me happy to be on this forum. I was searching for different ways of miking up a bass drum with no port, and on most of these other 'recording' forums, a lot of the discussion got instantly snarky when these people were confronted with drummers who didn't have a port on their front head, or who refused to take the front head off at all.

I seriously wanted to register just so I could return the snarkiness!

So, if you want to record your bass drum with no port, or don't want to remove your front head, you instantly "want to ruin your own recording", or you're "too stupid for your own good", or "you just want to ruin the process for the entire band". Literally, these are some of the things I've read.

I realize, they're just forums, and there aren't any real professionals on these things (I guess), but it blows my mind to think that there can be a whole generation of people into recording who never listened to or studied the work of Led Zeppelin? Or what of the great big band drummers from the 50s and 60s? They certainly didn't close mic the drums back then!

Or am I being too romantic about those old techniques? I did find a couple of articles on real pros who talked about miking bass drums from the outside. They were not phased by the fact that the bass drum would have no hole or full front head, they just explained what they did to capture that sound. Of course, I'm all about working with engineers to get a good recorded sound, but when did "working with the engineer" mean that you're just there to dismantle your bass drum so they can do what they do?

Needless to say, I was stunned at the downright anger and arrogance of those recording forum members. The fact that recording a bass drum with the front head on meant you were doomed to failure is puzzling. I thought if you were a true artist, you'd at least check it out and see what you can do.

Yes, I realize that 95% of the time you're hearing bass drums on recordings and in live situations with mics stuck inside of them. However, that means 95% of the recordings out there sound exactly the SAME. Way to go internet - spawning sameness the world over. And then, as if society fights back about this, the people we notice and give accolades to are the ones who do everything wrong and create something totally unique! What is it with these humans anyway? Not breaking the rules, yet getting recognized when they totally break the rules? Just an observation.

Just venting. Sorry.

Because they were taught the cookie cutter way of doing things and won't ever break convention because of their own biases.
 
Because they were taught the cookie cutter way of doing things and won't ever break convention because of their own biases.

Maybe I'm being cookie cutter about bass drums with full front heads? OMG - I'm an anachronism!
 
It would be cool and go on these recording forums to try and embarrass these guys into learning how to get a great tone from a wide open kick. I would seriously call into question their abilities.

I mean it's the same thing as a drummer stating that they can only play in 4/4 else we ruin the song. Totally unacceptable, lazy, lousy work ethic, and the hallmark of a low functioning person IMO.

I mean I'm no recording engineer yet I can get a great sound from my unported drum. OMG it's really pretty easy.

So if they claim to be pro and an unported bass drum confounds them...I would so love to dress these guys down for lack of effort at the very least. Why should I hire a person who can only deal with things if they are a certain way?

I want problem solvers not problem creators.
 
20130811-122401.jpg


http://jillianfactotum.com/2013/08/...-offense-to-something-posted-on-the-internet/
 
Just be glad there are still engineers miking real drums!

But on the ported/unported issue, isn't there resistance from both sides? is the engineer somehow more guilty for not wanting tom mic an unported kick, than the drummer who argues with him about it?

All of my recording kicks are ported, some have padding inside, some don't, and I deliver wonderful, round, live sounds when the producer wants them.

Note: I said when the producer wants them. I never, ever shove my preferences down the client's throat, and I never, EVER argue with an (experienced) engineer. Occasionally I get to teach a newbie a trick or two that I've learned in more than 40 years of tracking drums, but I do so in an informative way, and usually get a 'thank you' in the process.

Bermuda
 
Im sure there are many reasons for why people choose to only mic a BD through a port, but it probably boils down to getting the sound they want. Sure, laziness, convention, and stubborness are at play, but sound is ultimatly what they/you are going for.

Try mic'ing you BD without a hole, then grab an old head, cut a hole in it and try recording like that. Try no head, see how it sounds. In the end you need to find the sound you want. These people have found the sound they want and they are sticking with it. Find your sound.
 
It would be cool and go on these recording forums to try and embarrass these guys into learning how to get a great tone from a wide open kick. I would seriously call into question their abilities.

I mean it's the same thing as a drummer stating that they can only play in 4/4 else we ruin the song. Totally unacceptable, lazy, lousy work ethic, and the hallmark of a low functioning person IMO.

I mean I'm no recording engineer yet I can get a great sound from my unported drum. OMG it's really pretty easy.

So if they claim to be pro and an unported bass drum confounds them...I would so love to dress these guys down for lack of effort at the very least. Why should I hire a person who can only deal with things if they are a certain way?

I want problem solvers not problem creators.

Understood on that note. Good thing I'm not looking to hire any of these people. I just wanted different opinions on how you would mic up an un-ported bass drum, and instead of finding that, right off the bat I got the hate of people who insist on having a bass drum with no hole. Amazing.

The one real pro I did come across talked about using a fragile ribbon mic in front of a non-ported bass drum, and this reinforced my idea of getting another large diaphragm condenser (instead of one of those bass drum mics like the Shure Beta 52 or AKG D112 that everyone seems to have) to keep about a foot or so in front of my kick. I may try this.

The last recording session I did for a friend, without even trying something new, I was told to take the front head off, and then this guy came at me with a big packing blanket, and he taped one end to my bass drum, and stretched it out about five feet. Then he mic'ed the other end! I do my tracks and it sounds like my bass drum with a pillow in it. Not sure what the stretchy blanket tube did in this instance! Maybe they just wanted to be sure if they didn't like anything I played, they could just get someone else and it would sound the same?
 
Don't even get me started. :)



It's like telling a guitarist he can't play his Les Paul. He can only use a Telecaster or everything will be ruined.
 
Maybe I'm being cookie cutter about bass drums with full front heads? OMG - I'm an anachronism!

Perhaps we simply need to use cookie cutters to port our BD's. A nice gingerbread-man port, or heart, or dinosaur.

If you would ever like to go trolling the recording forums, ping me and we'll tag-team it.
 
Just be glad there are still engineers miking real drums!

But on the ported/unported issue, isn't there resistance from both sides? is the engineer somehow more guilty for not wanting tom mic an unported kick, than the drummer who argues with him about it?

All of my recording kicks are ported, some have padding inside, some don't, and I deliver wonderful, round, live sounds when the producer wants them.

Note: I said when the producer wants them. I never, ever shove my preferences down the client's throat, and I never, EVER argue with an (experienced) engineer. Occasionally I get to teach a newbie a trick or two that I've learned in more than 40 years of tracking drums, but I do so in an informative way, and usually get a 'thank you' in the process.

Bermuda

Yeah, I get that. When I'm in a professional situation with a plan and process, I rarely get confrontational and will do what needs to be done. In this instance, I was just looking for opinions and maybe some tips on how I could mic up an unproved bass drum differently from what I was doing, and it just surprised me the venom that can be had on the subject. Imagine if I put a nickel in somebody and got them going? It probably would be absolute mayhem!

But when I was mixing big bands at Disneyland (did this for years every Saturday night), if a drummer showed up with a full front head, I never wished he had a hole, I just tried to translate his sound into the house, and for the most part, it worked. The stage wasn't big enough to where if his sound wasn't going through the system you wouldn't hear him. And when I transitioned to doing latin bands at the same stage, it was close miking all the way, and I made that happen too.

And I didn't get too offended when I was referred to as the "DJ", either ;)
 
Just be glad there are still engineers miking real drums!

But on the ported/unported issue, isn't there resistance from both sides? is the engineer somehow more guilty for not wanting tom mic an unported kick, than the drummer who argues with him about it?

All of my recording kicks are ported, some have padding inside, some don't, and I deliver wonderful, round, live sounds when the producer wants them.

Note: I said when the producer wants them. I never, ever shove my preferences down the client's throat, and I never, EVER argue with an (experienced) engineer. Occasionally I get to teach a newbie a trick or two that I've learned in more than 40 years of tracking drums, but I do so in an informative way, and usually get a 'thank you' in the process.

Bermuda

Yes, in a "real life" recording situation (not a hypothetical one such as on a forum) being flexible and willing to entertain the producer's whims ("Hey! Let's take the bottom heads off the kit and try how that sounds!") is always a good thing and will get you hired back.
 
I've recorded drums a fair bit. I've done my share of live sound too. I've never felt ideological about any of these principles and I don't understand why other people do. Surely it should be the best tool and technique for the situation?

I might prefer a hole if it's a crowded stage with bad (but immovable) monitoring positions and a lot of rumble. If it's a larger stage then anything's fair game provided it's an appropriate sound. Either way, if I were micing up a kit then it just wouldn't matter what was there, I'd do my best to get the best out of it. If I felt that a hole was a better solution but it wasn't possible, I'd never push the point.

Case in point, I did a gig a few years ago where I took my kit and helped the sound guy out (because I had time). He looked at my bass drum, asked about a hole and I suggested ways that we could work together to get the sound we both wanted. In the end, there was no hole but the drum sounded great (had another guy jump on my kit instead of his!) because we worked together.

I think that's the key. People skills.
 
Maybe you're searching the wrong forums. I found this thread on gearslutz, and while there are a couple naysayers, they're pretty mild, and the rest of the thread has some good tips. I've also noticed several kits in the "show us your kits" thread over there that were mic'ed up in the studio and there was no port, so I don't think it's such a "sin" on that forum.
 
OK, let's really shake up the conventions: For years now I've been miking my maple toms' shells instead of the heads. (live, no studio work) I use SM57s and aim them directly toward the center of the shell. I love the pure tone I'm getting, and don't miss the typically overly-augmented head attack that comes from miking the head. Even when miking the shell I still get enough attack to suffice cutting thru the mix.

The studio guys you refer to would flip if they ever heard of this method.

GeeDeeEmm
 
It's like telling a guitarist he can't play his Les Paul. He can only use a Telecaster or everything will be ruined.

There's a BIG difference between a guitar, whose sound is almost completely controlled by the player, and drums, where the drummer doesn't really know what the mic is hearing.

Believe me, I want my drums to sound their best, and I think I have them tuned well, but I have NO idea how a mic interprets that sound, whether a few inches from the drum, inside the drum, or somewhere in the room. I trust the engineer to get the best sound, and I listen if he needs a tweak here and there. We record a little bit, I listen, and then - and in deference to the producer/client - do I weigh in about anything I think might be better if done differently. In the end, it's not really my call anyway. I'm not there for my drum sound (whatever that is...) I'm there to give the client their drum sound.

Bermuda
 
Last edited:
There's a BIG difference between a guitar, whose sound is almost completely controlled by the player, and drums, where the drummer doesn't really know what the mic is hearing.

I've had similar situations with guitar, the most correlative is being asked to switch from an open back to a closed back cabinet and vice versa. Closed back cabs tend to have tighter response and work well with direct dynamic mic'ing. Open back cabinets tend to produce a less focused ambient sound great for room mic'ing.

When you're on stage, and the volume is blasting, there's almost no audible difference between the two. Anyone who tells you differently either has superhuman hearing powers, or is self aggrandizing.

I agree with you that the producer makes the call on the shape of the sound, and the engineer does their best to execute the producers vision.
 
If I'm playing music with a backbeat, I port my bass drum. I'm not so passionate about how my bass drum is captured that I'm going to argue with a sound guy/gal about that. They almost all seem to be more comfortable with porting, so that's what I do. I can get a good sound that way, so I'm happy to make someone else's life easier.
 
I've recorded drums a fair bit. I've done my share of live sound too. I've never felt ideological about any of these principles and I don't understand why other people do. Surely it should be the best tool and technique for the situation?

I might prefer a hole if it's a crowded stage with bad (but immovable) monitoring positions and a lot of rumble. If it's a larger stage then anything's fair game provided it's an appropriate sound. Either way, if I were micing up a kit then it just wouldn't matter what was there, I'd do my best to get the best out of it. If I felt that a hole was a better solution but it wasn't possible, I'd never push the point.

Case in point, I did a gig a few years ago where I took my kit and helped the sound guy out (because I had time). He looked at my bass drum, asked about a hole and I suggested ways that we could work together to get the sound we both wanted. In the end, there was no hole but the drum sounded great (had another guy jump on my kit instead of his!) because we worked together.

I think that's the key. People skills.

I've not weighed in on this subject up to now….I am in complete agreement with this ^^^^ and also along the lines of what Bermuda is saying.

There are plenty of posers and idiots and wannabes on some of those home recording forums Bo. Many of them giving instructions on things they have never done themselves. My personal favourite- giving unsolicited opinions about equipment they have never touched or heard.

I'm a Audio Engineer, working mostly in post production - but have also recorded my fair share of drums. I also do live sound as well as do sound (or help) for the bands that I play in almost every weekend.

I generally prefer a port though. It's a time thing. I usually have none… I do have several mics to choose from and I use several different bass drums depending on the room and what the music calls for. Having a port is just easy…predictable results that sound good.

Some stages that I play on are so small, that even having a mic on a stand in front of the bass drum is an issue. It constantly gets hit and moved. Sometimes the mic ends up touching the resonant head, sometime knocked out of its clip, sometimes pointing away from the drum.

Yes, in the studio using a large diaphragm mic a foot away from the resonant head is lovely. The thought of doing that live is laughable. Maybe I'll just set that next to the guitar players' pedal board…aim it a bit…

Not to mention….nobody has brought up the reason(s)why engineers generally shy away from unported bass drums.
We are conditioned to hear bass drums with a lot of attack these days. You lose a lot of that with a non-ported head(unless you are mixing it from the batter side). When using large PA systems, you get a lot of boom from the PA itself….and that can actually sound very good if it's a well tuned system.

I have done a shitload of live music recording for television show/series, with a live audience. 5 years of shows, 10 episodes a year, two bands per show.

Here is an often repeated scenario during that shoot: Band loads in,setup/sound check - bass drum sounds fantastic in the house PA for our live audience. Kickin' thump, boom…it has it all. Everyone is happy, everyone's monitor mix is great, everyone is smiling. PA is a small but high end Meyer MINA line array with double 18" K+F subs. (I can post pictures of this setup + studio if y'all are interested). House drum kit (most often but not always used) is a Yamaha Oak Custom 10/12/16/22. Bass drum mic is a Beyerdynamic TG-D70d

FOH engineer really is one of the best live sound guys I've ever worked with. Mad people skills and great ears. He would have absolutely no problem if someone showed up with an unported head.

Anyway…after doing sound check in the room with this kit/system…I go to my position in the recording truck…the bass drum sounds like a wet fish being thrown against a piece of plywood. Awful. No tone whatsoever.

I go back out, actually try moving the mic to the outside …but now there is absolutely no definition and also lots and lots of leakage from the nearby Ampeg SVT bass amp with an 810 cabinet and also a Mesa Lone Star amp on stun AND a Marshall half stack.
What do you do?
In this case, back in - deep inside - the mic goes because I can at least carve it up with EQ later to save it a bit or whatever I have to do to help bring some life back to it. Oh, the horror. Yes, listening in isolation it sounds weird but when the whole band kicks in, meh….
Don't even get me started on the overhead mics. Yes, I always put them up and I always try to use them as the 'whole picture' of the kit. In isolation (drums only playing) - they are wonderful…but too often , when the band is playing, half of the signal is everything else. Out comes the high pass filter…bye bye drum sound. Cymbals are all that's left. The vocal mics often end up being your overheads.
Did I mention it's a small stage?

In case you missed my long winded, complicated, get-to-the-point-already, point : drums will sound very very different through a PA versus recorded. The PA system itself is part of the machine, and in modern music , a good part. A really good part. Think of the subs as being extra bass drums. For good or bad, the PA is doing much more than just amplifying sounds, making them louder. There isn't a bass drum in the world that can produce a 50Hz thump at a level loud enough to hear at 100 feet away from the stage, even if the room is empty. Even worse, with no attack of the beater, the bass drum is just down with the other low frequency mush. Doesn't really matter what you play, nobody can hear it. Admittedly, thats a worst case scenario, but it is often the issue.

Bermuda's point of not knowing what the mic hears really resonates (pardon the pun) with me.

There are many reasons why Jazz players don't port bass drums … from the higher tunings , the preference for a bass drum 'note' rather than a thump. But they also benefit from playing on generally quiet stages, or at least stages that don't have a crosswind 105dB SPL @ 80 Hz from the band.

// rant over

Neal
 
Last edited:
I've not weighed in on this subject up to now….I am in complete agreement with this ^^^^ and also along the lines of what Bermuda is saying.

There are plenty of posers and idiots and wannabes on some of those home recording forums Bo. Many of them giving instructions on things they have never done themselves. My personal favourite- giving unsolicited opinions about equipment they have never touched or heard.

I'm a Audio Engineer, working mostly in post production - but have also recorded my fair share of drums. I also do live sound as well as do sound (or help) for the bands that I play in almost every weekend.

I generally prefer a port though. It's a time thing. I usually have none… I do have several mics to choose from and I use several different bass drums depending on the room and what the music calls for. Having a port is just easy…predictable results that sound good.

Some stages that I play on are so small, that even having a mic on a stand in front of the bass drum is an issue. It constantly gets hit and moved. Sometimes the mic ends up touching the resonant head, sometime knocked out of its clip, sometimes pointing away from the drum.

Yes, in the studio using a large diaphragm mic a foot away from the resonant head is lovely. The thought of doing that live is laughable. Maybe I'll just set that next to the guitar players' pedal board…aim it a bit…

Not to mention….nobody has brought up the reason(s)why engineers generally shy away from unported bass drums.
We are conditioned to hear bass drums with a lot of attack these days. You lose a lot of that with a non-ported head(unless you are mixing it from the batter side). When using large PA systems, you get a lot of boom from the PA itself….and that can actually sound very good if it's a well tuned system.

I have done a shitload of live music recording for television show/series, with a live audience. 5 years of shows, 10 episodes a year, two bands per show.

Here is an often repeated scenario during that shoot: Band loads in,setup/sound check - bass drum sounds fantastic in the house PA for our live audience. Kickin' thump, boom…it has it all. Everyone is happy, everyone's monitor mix is great, everyone is smiling. PA is a small but high end Meyer MINA line array with double 18" K+F subs. (I can post pictures of this setup + studio if y'all are interested). House drum kit (most often but not always used) is a Yamaha Oak Custom 10/12/16/22. Bass drum mic is a Beyerdynamic TG-D70d

FOH engineer really is one of the best live sound guys I've ever worked with. Mad people skills and great ears. He would have absolutely no problem if someone showed up with an unported head.

Anyway…after doing sound check in the room with this kit/system…I go to my position in the recording truck…the bass drum sounds like a wet fish being thrown against a piece of plywood. Awful. No tone whatsoever.

I go back out, actually try moving the mic to the outside …but now there is absolutely no definition and also lots and lots of leakage from the nearby Ampeg SVT bass amp with an 810 cabinet and also a Mesa Lone Star amp on stun AND a Marshall half stack.
What do you do?
In this case, back in - deep inside - the mic goes because I can at least carve it up with EQ later to save it a bit or whatever I have to do to help bring some life back to it. Oh, the horror. Yes, listening in isolation it sounds weird but when the whole band kicks in, meh….
Don't even get me started on the overhead mics. Yes, I always put them up and I always try to use them as the 'whole picture' of the kit. In isolation (drums only playing) - they are wonderful…but too often , when the band is playing, half of the signal is everything else. Out comes the high pass filter…bye bye drum sound. Cymbals are all that's left. The vocal mics often end up being your overheads.
Did I mention it's a small stage?

In case you missed my long winded, complicated, get-to-the-point-already, point : drums will sound very very different through a PA versus recorded. The PA system itself is part of the machine, and in modern music , a good part. A really good part. Think of the subs as being extra bass drums. For good or bad, the PA is doing much more than just amplifying sounds, making them louder. There isn't a bass drum in the world that can produce a 50Hz thump at a level loud enough to hear at 100 feet away from the stage, even if the room is empty. Even worse, with no attack of the beater, the bass drum is just down with the other low frequency mush. Doesn't really matter what you play, nobody can hear it. Admittedly, thats a worst case scenario, but it is often the issue.

Bermuda's point of not knowing what the mic hears really resonates (pardon the pun) with me.

There are many reasons why Jazz players don't port bass drums … from the higher tunings , the preference for a bass drum 'note' rather than a thump. But they also benefit from playing on generally quiet stages, or at least stages that don't have a crosswind 105dB SPL @ 80 Hz from the band.

// rant over

Neal

I get it Neal. My point, without it getting too far off track, was the brick wall attitude I discovered on a few forums on the internet, which shouldn't blow my mind because I'm aware of the amount of idiocy that is out in cyberland. I wasn't looking for the best ways to mic up in a live situation, I'm just trying to capture my drum sound the way I hear it, and I think I can do that in my little practice room. But the lack of people skills and flat-out arrogance from the responses was a little over-the-top. People need mad people skills, 24/7!
 
Back
Top