Open handed technique
- Thread starter jholland10
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MikeM
Platinum Member
I can answer your question from my experience only. Ride cymbal stays on the right, hats stay on the left.
Now let me ask you a question:
Seems to me all you seriously learned guys, after spending countless hours working through all the books and mastering every permutation of every rudiment, should be able to make any leading-left transition seamlessly and without even thinking about it. It should already be second nature, right? I mean, this is basic rudiments 101, isn't it?
I honestly don't mean that in any flippant or sarcastic way at all. I'm actually very curious.
But since this does seem to be so controversial among so many who are so learned, I have to assume that one of your limbs is more equal that the other(!).
I don't necessarily mean just you, Jeff, but all the high level players contributing to this thread.
Look, I'm not a learned guy in any formal sense, and even I haven't found it terribly difficult to make riding with my left work to my advantage.
Is it the same as riding with my right? Of course it isn't. Should it be exactly the same? Maybe that's the real question here, but to be honest, I don't think I want get it totally equalized because I actually like that it's different.
I think it's a mental thing more than anything else. There's nothing to be undone or unlearned, or even learned twice. It's just another skill in the set.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record: I'm not suggesting that anyone should (or shouldn't) get on board with this idea and make it a full-time thing, and I only use it very occasionally where it works. I just can't see the point of ruling it out completely based on some traditional principal.
Drums as drumkits, and the techniques to play them, are still relatively new and evolving in the world of musical instruments, so I'm not getting the traditional and sacred calligraphy monk parallel at all.
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Winegums
Silver Member
I don't even play open handed and I want a second ride for accents, fills and blasts with my left hand. My left hand is always as busy as my right when playing permits. I think Mike Mangini has it right with an ambidextrous kit for metal.
jeffwj
Platinum Member
There was no sarcasm taken, Mike. That's the great thing about this forum - we discuss pros and cons (hopefully) without offending each other.
As a teacher, I try to keep up to date with as many trends as possible. To paraphrase Jim Chapin, I examine everything - discarding the techniques which do not work for me personally and keeping what I feel is beneficial.
I asked the question about which side the ride cymbal is on to see if most open handed players learned everything with both hands leading. As a teacher, that question is important to me because it represents the amount of time a student will take to learn each pattern/style. Students take a good amount of time to learn jazz coordination, Latin and Brazilian patterns, chart reading, etc... I would imagine that it would take close to twice the amount of time to master those patterns with left and right hand lead.
Yes, we work on using our hands evenly when working on rudiments and technique exercises. I even work on left hand lead in New Breed with my students. As you said, it is a skill set. Those exercises allow us to develop coordination and link limb combinations together. But i feel that there is a difference between strengthening the non-dominant hand and learning everything both ways. I also think that leading with the left hand on hi-hat, filling with right hand lead, and then going back to left hand on the hats seems a bit unsettling.
I guess those are the reasons for me not playing/teaching open handed. I do recommend a remote hi-hat to students who like the idea of playing ideas around the toms with the left hand while maintaining a groove on the hats.
That being said, if a student is already playing open when he/she comes to me, I will not make them change to crossed. If they decide to learn everything I teach them both ways - well, I never complain about students doing more than expected. But that means a few more hours of practice that they need to fit into their schedule each week.
Jeff
JimFiore
Silver Member
My experience does not support this assertion. I don't think the human brain is wired quite that way. It seems that there is some transference from left to right and vice versa. Being right handed, I tend to learn things with my dominant hand either leading or doing the more demanding part first but once I have it, doing the mirror image always seems to take less time than the initial effort. As far as getting it perfect is concerned, it is hard for me to get the mirror down as comfortably as the original. But then again, who the heck am I? I'm just a hobbyist who happens to have decades of experience playing crossed and only a few years playing sym and open handed. I don't expect the mirror will ever be as natural for me, but what's natural, in all fairness, hinges on how I was taught. What if I was taught sym and open when I started?
One thing I like about a sym setup is the balance of it. It seems to be more ergonomic. My motions are balanced from right to left and from left to right. I think that's a healthier situation when it comes to potential repetitive stress injuries.
W
wy yung
Guest
Screw it. My opinion is worthless.
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It's also been my experience that it doesn't take twice as long to learn both ways. I've begun to wonder if my piano background has something to do with this. What does your left hand typically do on the piano? It plays a relatively static rhythmic pattern while the right hand plays the melody. Sometimes, these roles are reversed and sometimes the hands work together to play one complex part. By the time I started playing the drums, my hands had already practiced every combination of rhythmic responsibility.
Meanwhile, my first drum teacher advised me not to think in terms of what rhythm each limb plays. Instead, he advised me to concentrate on the sounds I want to hear. To play a basic rock beat, I don't think, "Eighth notes with me right hand, left hand on two and four, and right foot on one and three." I think, "Tick-tick-tick... and boom-chick-boom-chick." I progressed much faster after this suggestion because I stopped wasting so much concentration on what each limb was doing. The ability to reverse my hands with minimal explicit practice is a bonus.
Our brains are funny things and no doubt we're all wired differently. Give me a snare drum pedal for my right foot and a bass drum mallet for my left hand, and I'll play you a rock beat with no trouble. With the same setup, ask me to play my right foot on 1 and 3, my left hand on 2 and 4 on a bass drum, and eighth notes on the floor tom with my right hand, and you'll get a good laugh.
Nour Ayasso
Senior Member
The point is you force your left hand (and foot for this matter) to take full lead through practice. After you practice your left hand will be comfortable and it will feel natural. Not shouldn't, it will, and if it doesn't it means you haven't practiced enough. I'm not saying sit down out of the blue and attempt left lead because obviously that won't be comfortable. It wasn't for me, it probably isn't for anyone. But after practicing and breaking your limit, left lead WILL be in your comfort zone. And no "we" refers to everyone on this thread who dropped the whole "learning guitar with your left hand" thing because it's completely irrelevant and different.
I do, I take advantage of my ambidextrous, one ride on the left for jazz, a ride on the right for blast beats. I have two of most types of cymbals, each being different from the other. But you don't have to, I've see. Ambidextrous players take advantage of stickings on a right handed kit(Anup Sastry). Goes to show that ambidextrous doesn't have to change your set, but will expand your playing.
toddbishop
Platinum Member
Then they're stuck with a very poorly positioned main lead hand-- on a normal drum set, at least. I think they have to learn everything twice, or redesign the drum set; and if they're going to do that, they could just buy a remote hihat and be done with it.
No-- doing technical stuff and playing music on the drum set are different things. I am technically almost as good leading with my left as I am with my right, but that doesn't translate to playing music totally ambidextrously. At least it doesn't for me. Coming from a jazz school of thought, you're supposed to develop a lot of artistry with the way you play the ride cymbal, and everything else you play-- much of it, anyway-- hangs off of that. There's an entire method build around that, which most of the great modern players after ~Tony Williams use/take advantage of. A version of it, which he calls his 'non-independent' method is explained in Bob Moses's Drum Wisdom, which you can find floating around the Internet in pdf form.
Each limb is fairly specialized. Both my hands are good at their own tasks, and they don't really do the other's tasks all that well.
It's not about tradition, it's about using a method that is economical and that is proven to work really well. I've ruled OH style out because I believe it's extremely poor economics, practice time-wise, with a lot of duplication of effort-- and there are way too many other things to work on that promise to do more for my playing. Like, I've got Ed Uribe's Afro-Cuban book breathing down my neck-- the mfer is 500 pages long...
That's not to say there's never a reason to play your LH on the HH while your RH plays the drums-- I'm just not in favor of making it a regular feature of someone's playing, unless they're just going to be playing rock beats, or learned parts, forever, and that's what they want to do.
It has to more do with the thing I said about developing some artistry with your right hand-- not just your RH, but all of the things following it and depending on it.
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porter
Platinum Member
Ah, yes, let me go practice for another four years to remove a feeling I actually like with my playing. Wink?
DrumsTheWord
Member
I "technically" play open handed...that is, I'm right handed but play with my hi-hat over on the right hand side of the kit.
You can watch a video of my playing here...WARNING: May cause severe vomiting!!
"Little Monster" - Royal Blood
Rob
You can watch a video of my playing here...WARNING: May cause severe vomiting!!
"Little Monster" - Royal Blood
Rob
D
dmacc_2
Guest
I say - who cares which approach you take.
Figure out what works best for you and do it. Open handed / cross handed / both or something different and new.
Figure out what works best for you and do it. Open handed / cross handed / both or something different and new.
Nour Ayasso
Senior Member
It only took me a few months but ok, and it won't take away anything it will make you more comfortible if anything.
No, open handed refers to playing the hi hat with your non dominant hand. So playing the hi hat with your dominant hand, whether the HH is on your left or right, it's concidered normal.I "technically" play open handed...that is, I'm right handed but play with my hi-hat over on the right hand side of the kit.
You can watch a video of my playing here...WARNING: May cause severe vomiting!!
"Little Monster" - Royal Blood
Rob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-handed_drumming
I'm not saying wiki is a reliable resource at all, but generally thats what everyone is referring to.
On the other hand, the fact that I just debated this really makes me dislike the whole "open handed" term ever more. It's either ambidextrous or not...
Oc course, freedom is always the way to go. I'm not trying to force it on anyone or say that it's better. Just saying it opens up a lot of opportunities and it works better for a lot of drummers.
Pocket-full-of-gold
Platinum Member
Ok. I've stayed outta this thread 'cos ultimately I couldn't give a toss what road someone else wants to travel. As long as we're all bound for "Rome" then that's good enough for me. Open.....crossed.....or with the sticks hangin' out of your coins. As long as you're musical with your approach, what the hell do I care.
But this one has lured me out from under my rock:
Playing with your hands "open" (as in not "crossed") is now not really "open" because even though your hands are "open" you're leading from the right so we can technically consider them "crossed"?
Is this actually a serious debate? Or are we just happy to make it up as we go along these days?
There's open......and there's crossed, surely? Or are we now changing perfectly acceptable definitions provided for by the English language for hundreds of years just to prove our point on drum forums?
But this one has lured me out from under my rock:
Playing with your hands "open" (as in not "crossed") is now not really "open" because even though your hands are "open" you're leading from the right so we can technically consider them "crossed"?
Is this actually a serious debate? Or are we just happy to make it up as we go along these days?
There's open......and there's crossed, surely? Or are we now changing perfectly acceptable definitions provided for by the English language for hundreds of years just to prove our point on drum forums?
Nour Ayasso
Senior Member
I wasn't really trying to make it a debate, buuuut if you wanna push your luck and get roasted that's fine.
Yeah it does matter, theres no point in having these terms if they're not specifically defined or being used correctly. No one calls normal playing open handed. I don't go up to someone who's playing right handed on the right side of their kit because they're right handed and say "that's open handed playing". Why? Because what they're doing is the standard way to play the instrument. You would say "that's normal" because THAT'S NORMAL. I'm not even going to say it's the social norm either, because it's literally just the way you play the instrument naturally. Nothing different, specific or extraordinary about it. If that person who was just playing is now suddenly riding the hi hat with their left, that's very different and unusual from what was just happening. You now say "oh your playing open handed, interesting" And that's why as a term, is specifically referred to playing with your left hand when your right hand dominant. Does it reeeaaally mean HH only? Yeah it does, because it originated when instead of crossing your hands, you play the hi hat OPEN with your left hand to AVOID CROSSING your hands. Now this, this is a social norm, everyone here knows when you see a drummer who was just freaking playing right handed, who now switched to left hand, JUST for the high hat, is referred to as open handed playing. Or vice versa. If they start crashing and doing leads with both their hands then clearly they're ambidextrous, or are playing ambidextrously (or whatever).
And really I meant to tell him I liked his enthusiastic playing, but I forgot, wasn't trying to argue over something that's already been established. No I'm not making anything up, use the internet since your on it and do some research. I'm simply going off what has already been established in the past.
Pocket-full-of-gold
Platinum Member
A door is still open regardless of whether it's pushed or pulled. It is open simply because it is no longer closed. The hands are still open regardless of whether the right or left hand is leading. They are open simply because they are no longer crossed. If you wanna ignore commonly accepted terminology and cite "the internet" in order to perpetuate a half truth, knock yourself out. But if something........especially something that is cited on "the internet" that I frequent, flies in the face of all common sense and sound judgement, then you bet I'm gonna call it to question. To highlight the obvious lack of reason presented in the argument........whether someone's gonna make an attempt to "roast" me for it or not.
Nour Ayasso
Senior Member
Well we're not talking about doors are we? We don't refer normal playing to open, yes even if your hands are open, it's not considered because like I already said normal is normal. Even if your hands are literally open, you only refer open handed playing when it's your non dominant. Sorry bud but no one says open handed playing when someones playing normal. And lack of reason? I'm thinking you mean backing up with facts, which you are not, so I don't see your point? I listed a whole paragraph with examples and reasons/facts of why we call open handed playing something specific. aaannd you replied with doors being open and being shut....don't worry I get the metaphor. If you're hands aren't crossed...well then they have to be opened? Yes literally, but that's not how we use the term. Why? Because your hands NOT being crossed is EXTREMELY common. But when you do it with your left hand, well that's different, uncommon and has been named so we can all identify it. It's call open handed bud, simple. Why do you think this thread is called "open handed technique" because were all referring to something specific. Why do you think we've been discussing our left hands, ambidextrous and the pros and cons? Were obviously NOT referring to playing the set normally with our right hands are we? Nope were referring to playing open handed, left on the HH, respectively.
Pocket-full-of-gold
Platinum Member
Look, the best we can do is hold our assertions up to some scrutiny and see how they fare.
Just so that I'm clear, your assertion is that to play "open" handed, one must be using their non-dominant hand on the hats, yeah? Otherwise, even though the hands are "open" they're not really open because no one says open when playing crossed.......including the internet?
So applying your argument, what do we think about a guy like Puffy Bordin? He's widely regarded as being an "open handed" player, yeah? Because he sets up a right handed kit and his left hand is on the hats, right? But the dude is left handed. So although he's apparently "open" and towing the company line by employing the internet/Ayasso definition of what's open and what's not, he's still actually using his dominant hand on the hats, isn't he? That being the case and using your (and the internet's) logic as presented in this thread so far, he's not really "open" at all.......even though he appears to be as open as a ten dollar tart after a round of drinks on Saturday night......he's really not. That dominant left hand is the spanner in the works here, isn't it?
I'm perfectly willing to accept the fact that I may be a moron (my wife assures me I'm not, but my mates are not so convincing). But I'm just not gettin' it. If a principle applies, then it applies across the board, surely?
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Winegums
Silver Member
Seriously guys?
It's referenced around the Hi hat and the Hi hat only! Since in the two most dominant playing styles crossed or open, we play around the kit in the same fashion. We play the toms the same, we play the ride the same, we hit the kick drum with our right foot and operate the hats with our left foot. Again It's only about how your arms are positioned on the hats and the snare.
Bringing left handed players, odd kit setups and other things into the discussion isn't clarifying anything.
A left handed player playing open on a right handed kit is still playing open. A right handed player playing open on a right handed kit is still playing open.
Stop beating around the bush with what is very simple terminology.
It's referenced around the Hi hat and the Hi hat only! Since in the two most dominant playing styles crossed or open, we play around the kit in the same fashion. We play the toms the same, we play the ride the same, we hit the kick drum with our right foot and operate the hats with our left foot. Again It's only about how your arms are positioned on the hats and the snare.
Bringing left handed players, odd kit setups and other things into the discussion isn't clarifying anything.
A left handed player playing open on a right handed kit is still playing open. A right handed player playing open on a right handed kit is still playing open.
Stop beating around the bush with what is very simple terminology.
Hewitt2
Senior Member
Agreed.
Open handed implies that the hand playing the snare has unobstructed access to the various components of the kit, and is not reliant on what the crossed hand is or isn't doing. It doesn't matter whether it's the stronger or weaker hand that has this access.
Weaker hand development is not the core purpose of open-handed playing, nor is it a requirement, although it is certainly a benefit if one wants to go down that route.
Full disclosure: I play open handed whereas my weaker hand leads on the hi-hat and ride in an uncrossed position a la Billy Cobham. However, guys like David Garibaldi play open handed too, where the dominant hand plays the hats. In having been so fortunate to speak with David Garibaldi on the subject once, he very much feels like he is playing open handed with his right hand with his auxillary hats on the right side, for many of the reasons noted above.
Open handed implies that the hand playing the snare has unobstructed access to the various components of the kit, and is not reliant on what the crossed hand is or isn't doing. It doesn't matter whether it's the stronger or weaker hand that has this access.
Weaker hand development is not the core purpose of open-handed playing, nor is it a requirement, although it is certainly a benefit if one wants to go down that route.
Full disclosure: I play open handed whereas my weaker hand leads on the hi-hat and ride in an uncrossed position a la Billy Cobham. However, guys like David Garibaldi play open handed too, where the dominant hand plays the hats. In having been so fortunate to speak with David Garibaldi on the subject once, he very much feels like he is playing open handed with his right hand with his auxillary hats on the right side, for many of the reasons noted above.