Jazz Trios

indiadrummer

Senior Member
Right now I'm jamming with some friends in a trio, and I'm having trouble "filling the space" so to speak, since we are lacking a chordal instrument like a piano or guitar (we have a sax, bass and drums). I try to play a bit more openly, with more space for the bass to fill in order to make a bigger sound (we often do rock covers of jazz tunes), but I'm having trouble. How can I fill the space? Any tips, or techniques?
 
I would suggest a listen to The Bad Plus. Paul Motian is another good example, with Bill Evans or Keith Jarret, or his own trio with Bill Frisell and Joe Lovano. Listen to a lot of trios.
 
Embrace the space and the silence, its a different sound than a larger group, just let it breath and enjoy. Trio playing is my personal favorite.
 
Right now I'm jamming with some friends in a trio, and I'm having trouble "filling the space" so to speak, since we are lacking a chordal instrument like a piano or guitar (we have a sax, bass and drums). I try to play a bit more openly, with more space for the bass to fill in order to make a bigger sound (we often do rock covers of jazz tunes), but I'm having trouble. How can I fill the space? Any tips, or techniques?

Don't fill in the face..That's one great but often overlooked/unexplored way to play..
 
Delta's recs were really good - glad you checked 'em out.

I'm confused a bit...You are trying to play with more space, and then ask to fill the space...?

Anyway - the best way, imo, to fill the "space" would be to get those toms involved. Think about tambre more than just playing more notes. Without knowing what the third guy is playing with you (drums, bass, and...?) if it's a horn (I LOVE sax trios) then have a lot of fun with that stuff - those toms have some pretty open terrain to work with. If it's a piano, I might establish myself on the snare a little bit more first...Of course it all depends on what's going on with the music, and i would never try and say "do it this way all the time" - but rather as something to possibly think about, so down the road you can deliberately think "I will go against that idea" or "I will toy with that idea and this other idea" - rather than just "playing notes and responding to what's going on around me"

THAT'S one of the *BIG* things for me. When you just start "playing/responding" or auto-piloting some "comps" etc - that's when jazz becomes very generic and I think back to Mystery Science Theater 3000's guys making fun of a scene with lame lame jazz going on (singing) "Jazz, jazz, generic jazz!" Even if they're good players, if you don't differentiate how you play a little bit from one song to the next, why not just combine the songs and get it over with?

I used to rock an avant garde quintet on the east coast (drums, 2 guitars, 2 tenor saxes - balls to the wall, baby!) and the horn player would sometimes get in these ruts and everything started sounding the same. I stopped the song (it was a rehearsal) and asked him what he was doing. He said "Well, it's free so I can play anything I want" and I said "No, you can't. Just 'cuz it's 'free' doesn't mean you can start noodling the same stuff over and over - what are you doing to make this song different from the last one?" He started thinking more about different tambres, different textures, the shapes of everything he was playing - whether he would play something very melodic or something more harsh, etc etc - made a world of difference.
 
Check out Being There or Changing Places, two albums by the Tord Gustavsen Trio. They're both highly melodic, very spacious European jazz. Great examples of using space in a piano trio.

A horn trio will be slightly different, in that piano has the ability to fill out a lot of sound, but I'm sure listening to these albums will give you a starting point.

There's also a bunch of Tord's music on Youtube.
 
Right now I'm jamming with some friends in a trio, and I'm having trouble "filling the space" so to speak, since we are lacking a chordal instrument like a piano or guitar (we have a sax, bass and drums). I try to play a bit more openly, with more space for the bass to fill in order to make a bigger sound (we often do rock covers of jazz tunes), but I'm having trouble. How can I fill the space? Any tips, or techniques?

Canadian jazz great Barry Elmes has done a lot of work with quartets and trios sans guitar or piano. His group Time Warp put out some great albums.
 
In order to fill space in a trio without a chord-based instrument, you and the bass player will both need to spend a LOT of time listening to each other, and to your horn player. You are going to have to incorporate the whole kit, thinking of it as one instrument. If your sax player is playing a harsh horn part, ride on the hats with them open (like in hard rock, only swung). The sound is not stereotypical jazz, but fills space and sounds fantastic. Take your ride pattern to the toms, to the rims, whatever. Keep in mind that, unless you are doing really avant garde stuff, you will want each part to sound different, not just one crazy drum solo underneath everything the horn player does. Your bass player will also have to alter how he plays, not just doing walking lines, but playing chords, etc. It is rare that you see a horn trio (with bass and drums) where the bass player doesn't use a five or six string bass, both for extra range and for chording purposes.

Good luck. I personally think that a horn trio is the single hardest type of band to make sound good without sounding repetitive. It requires three players who all understand their instruments perfectly, and know how to get an amazing array of sounds from them. Otherwise, to the average listener, the songs begin to run together and sound the same. However, if you guys can pull it off, it will be an amazing experience for both you guys and the listeners.
 
I believe I saw some footage of Jojo Mayer playing in a sax/bass/drums trio called Depart. That might be worth checking out, Also, the late Vernel Fournier was a very talented and very underrated drummer (one of the best brush players I've ever heard). He played with the Ahmad Jamal Trio back in the 50's and 60's. Their Cross Country Tour 1958-1961 record is some of the best jazz you'll ever hear.
 
Right now I'm jamming with some friends in a trio, and I'm having trouble "filling the space" so to speak, since we are lacking a chordal instrument like a piano or guitar (we have a sax, bass and drums). I try to play a bit more openly, with more space for the bass to fill in order to make a bigger sound (we often do rock covers of jazz tunes), but I'm having trouble. How can I fill the space? Any tips, or techniques?

Listen to the later Coltrane albums with Rashied Ali. There's some incendiary playing on there that might give you some ideas.
 
In order to fill space in a trio without a chord-based instrument, you and the bass player will both need to spend a LOT of time listening to each other, and to your horn player. You are going to have to incorporate the whole kit, thinking of it as one instrument. If your sax player is playing a harsh horn part, ride on the hats with them open (like in hard rock, only swung). The sound is not stereotypical jazz, but fills space and sounds fantastic. Take your ride pattern to the toms, to the rims, whatever. Keep in mind that, unless you are doing really avant garde stuff, you will want each part to sound different, not just one crazy drum solo underneath everything the horn player does. Your bass player will also have to alter how he plays, not just doing walking lines, but playing chords, etc. It is rare that you see a horn trio (with bass and drums) where the bass player doesn't use a five or six string bass, both for extra range and for chording purposes.

Good luck. I personally think that a horn trio is the single hardest type of band to make sound good without sounding repetitive. It requires three players who all understand their instruments perfectly, and know how to get an amazing array of sounds from them. Otherwise, to the average listener, the songs begin to run together and sound the same. However, if you guys can pull it off, it will be an amazing experience for both you guys and the listeners.



Aaahhhh!! I was sort of with you, until you took a veiled swing at the avant garde kids out there: "not just one crazy drum solo underneath everything the horn player does".......


Not to get into some tirade, but: If that's all you really think about "avant garde" music/drumming, you really don't know squat...and if you're really into the music, then you need to work much much more on your ability to communicate...

The music has *NOTHING* to do with "one crazy drum solo underneath everything the horn player does" - it has ***EVERYTHING*** to do with musically responding/PROVIDING/INTERACTING with what's going on around you - just because it might not be a steady/mechanical beat, with some wonderful fills here and there - doesn't mean one has to think of it as an accompanied "solo" - that is bush-league summarian garbage... There is a difference between playing with a "solo" mentality and an "accompanying" mentality - and that's the difference.


Go ahead and listen to Rashied Ali behind Coltrane on "Interstellar Space" and then listen to a random Jo Jo Meyer (who I like) track with him playing drumNbass with other musicians, and I would say Jo Jo's playing is more "solo-esque" than what Rashied was playing. What Rashied was doing was a perfect accompanying foil to Trane's explorations. Just because it's not a steady rhythm that we all know and can play, doesn't mean it's a frickin' solo...I've heard drum solos with a rock-groove going on - what is the barrier between the two? Not a whole lot, I would say. The main point of a solo is to grab the listener's ear and keep them entertained - which is why I'm not really all about just soloing for soloing's sake when I play with my *sax trio* (which somehow manages to play at rowdy dive bars and cool secret shows and keep people entertained) because while the rest of the song is going (not just my "solo") I find ways to build and/or make-the-song-interesting/entertaining for everyone in the room (which includes the hiring and practicing with horn and bass players who have the ability to do the same thing)

- I would love to hear someone's take on Interstellar Space while they played a "less soloistic" drum part...Good luck. (and just because it's not super popular in the mainstream doesn't mean it's not an amazing piece of music/art - and if I were to pre-suppose about avant-garde's "soloistic" approach and it's lack of popularity, possibly due to that approach, I would point out something like "Moby Dick" - and how people love that drum solo - and while I'm on it... it's pretty fluff-ish, and not that impressive, and actually rather forced, and from a compositional standpoint, pretty bad/weak...)


And while I'm just going here, good job regurgitating.


The sax trio is *the* most fun musical situation for me to play in because there's so much opportunity to stretch. My usual horn guy out here in LA (need to get Travis out here!) plays tenor/alto/clarinet/bass-clarinet/flute/accordian/and-a-bunch-of-other-stuff, so I have to be on my toes with how much to provide each song (his dynamics on the bass clarinet can't follow his tenor playing, so you gotta ease up on the dynamics but NOT the intensity). By listening to more sax trios, you'll get different ideas of what you can do...here's a few:

Joe Lovano - Trio Fascination - Elvin on drums - and he helps me finally like a Joe Lovano album - something about Joe's playing has never made me crazy about him, but with Dave Holland and Elvin in tow, you can't/better-not screw it up. Amazing trio performance, and a lot of it very subdued - not any kind of "all-out" stuff - that's coming up right now:

PETER BROTZMANN - For Adolphe Sax/Live @ Nefertiti/NOTHUNG (seriously *great* live avant-sax-trio album)/and the amazing NEVER TOO LATE BUT ALWAYS TOO EARLY - seriously - this trio album features the best rhythm section walking the planet (WILLIAM PARKER/HAMID DRAKE) with Brotzmann going for broke many times and coming up always-the-winner. The album was going to be an honest tribute to one of the greatest bassists ever (PETER KOWALD!!!!) and Peter died suddenly afterward, and it's very sad.

And while I'm on that rhythmic combo of WILLIAM PARKER and HAMID DRAKE - you need to check out DANIEL CARTER on WILLIAM PARKER's album "******PAINTER'S SPRING******" - fantastic album, and anyone who needs to figure out how to play to a saxophone trio needs to listen to the *amazing* (AMAZING) Hamid Drake (or you are obsolete, in my book - it's like jazz drummers skipping over Art Blakey, Elvin Jones and Tony Williams...If you don't know who Hamid Drake is, and you think you're a jazz drummer...I feel sorry for whoever has to listen to you play).


We all love Elvin - so check out his sax trio recording "Puttin' It Together" - with Joe Farrell and Jimmy (Jimmy!) Garrison - great great great album , and one of the starting points for Elvin's Jazz Machine group. Also - hard to find (I have an old old vinyl of it, and good luck with that - I don't think it's on CD yet...but "The Ultimate Elvin Jones" is in the same company as "Puttin'" but possibly even better. (dare I say?!?!)

Sticking with Elvin, there's a great sax-trio recording of him on "YOUNGBLOOD" with George Mraz and Joshua Redman - whom I would've loved to see.

or sticking with the Redman family, maybe "MOMENTUM SPACE" with Elvin, DEWEY REDMAN, and time for bed...just fell asleep and woke back up...more trios to rec later! heck - Kenny Garrett's Triology is a sax trio that' sick!
 
Aaahhhh!! I was sort of with you, until you took a veiled swing at the avant garde kids out there: "not just one crazy drum solo underneath everything the horn player does".......


Not to get into some tirade, but: If that's all you really think about "avant garde" music/drumming, you really don't know squat...and if you're really into the music, then you need to work much much more on your ability to communicate...

The music has *NOTHING* to do with "one crazy drum solo underneath everything the horn player does" - it has ***EVERYTHING*** to do with musically responding/PROVIDING/INTERACTING with what's going on around you - just because it might not be a steady/mechanical beat, with some wonderful fills here and there - doesn't mean one has to think of it as an accompanied "solo" - that is bush-league summarian garbage... There is a difference between playing with a "solo" mentality and an "accompanying" mentality - and that's the difference.


Go ahead and listen to Rashied Ali behind Coltrane on "Interstellar Space" and then listen to a random Jo Jo Meyer (who I like) track with him playing drumNbass with other musicians, and I would say Jo Jo's playing is more "solo-esque" than what Rashied was playing. What Rashied was doing was a perfect accompanying foil to Trane's explorations. Just because it's not a steady rhythm that we all know and can play, doesn't mean it's a frickin' solo...I've heard drum solos with a rock-groove going on - what is the barrier between the two? Not a whole lot, I would say. The main point of a solo is to grab the listener's ear and keep them entertained - which is why I'm not really all about just soloing for soloing's sake when I play with my *sax trio* (which somehow manages to play at rowdy dive bars and cool secret shows and keep people entertained) because while the rest of the song is going (not just my "solo") I find ways to build and/or make-the-song-interesting/entertaining for everyone in the room (which includes the hiring and practicing with horn and bass players who have the ability to do the same thing)

- I would love to hear someone's take on Interstellar Space while they played a "less soloistic" drum part...Good luck. (and just because it's not super popular in the mainstream doesn't mean it's not an amazing piece of music/art - and if I were to pre-suppose about avant-garde's "soloistic" approach and it's lack of popularity, possibly due to that approach, I would point out something like "Moby Dick" - and how people love that drum solo - and while I'm on it... it's pretty fluff-ish, and not that impressive, and actually rather forced, and from a compositional standpoint, pretty bad/weak...)


And while I'm just going here, good job regurgitating.


The sax trio is *the* most fun musical situation for me to play in because there's so much opportunity to stretch. My usual horn guy out here in LA (need to get Travis out here!) plays tenor/alto/clarinet/bass-clarinet/flute/accordian/and-a-bunch-of-other-stuff, so I have to be on my toes with how much to provide each song (his dynamics on the bass clarinet can't follow his tenor playing, so you gotta ease up on the dynamics but NOT the intensity). By listening to more sax trios, you'll get different ideas of what you can do...here's a few:

Joe Lovano - Trio Fascination - Elvin on drums - and he helps me finally like a Joe Lovano album - something about Joe's playing has never made me crazy about him, but with Dave Holland and Elvin in tow, you can't/better-not screw it up. Amazing trio performance, and a lot of it very subdued - not any kind of "all-out" stuff - that's coming up right now:

PETER BROTZMANN - For Adolphe Sax/Live @ Nefertiti/NOTHUNG (seriously *great* live avant-sax-trio album)/and the amazing NEVER TOO LATE BUT ALWAYS TOO EARLY - seriously - this trio album features the best rhythm section walking the planet (WILLIAM PARKER/HAMID DRAKE) with Brotzmann going for broke many times and coming up always-the-winner. The album was going to be an honest tribute to one of the greatest bassists ever (PETER KOWALD!!!!) and Peter died suddenly afterward, and it's very sad.

And while I'm on that rhythmic combo of WILLIAM PARKER and HAMID DRAKE - you need to check out DANIEL CARTER on WILLIAM PARKER's album "******PAINTER'S SPRING******" - fantastic album, and anyone who needs to figure out how to play to a saxophone trio needs to listen to the *amazing* (AMAZING) Hamid Drake (or you are obsolete, in my book - it's like jazz drummers skipping over Art Blakey, Elvin Jones and Tony Williams...If you don't know who Hamid Drake is, and you think you're a jazz drummer...I feel sorry for whoever has to listen to you play).


We all love Elvin - so check out his sax trio recording "Puttin' It Together" - with Joe Farrell and Jimmy (Jimmy!) Garrison - great great great album , and one of the starting points for Elvin's Jazz Machine group. Also - hard to find (I have an old old vinyl of it, and good luck with that - I don't think it's on CD yet...but "The Ultimate Elvin Jones" is in the same company as "Puttin'" but possibly even better. (dare I say?!?!)

Sticking with Elvin, there's a great sax-trio recording of him on "YOUNGBLOOD" with George Mraz and Joshua Redman - whom I would've loved to see.

or sticking with the Redman family, maybe "MOMENTUM SPACE" with Elvin, DEWEY REDMAN, and time for bed...just fell asleep and woke back up...more trios to rec later! heck - Kenny Garrett's Triology is a sax trio that' sick!

The funniest part of this whole rant to me is that you went on about Interstellar Space, which not only do I love, but I don't consider soloistic (or, to be frank, avant garde in the modern usage of the term) at all. You assumed that you knew what I was talking about, but were wrong. Ali is a great example of a drummer who knew how to listen while playing, and react accordingly. However, there are drummers out there who just start playing, and then stop when the leader gives them the nod, without even reallIy listening. I see this in some up and coming jazz groups (unfortunately I can't name names, because they are artists I have seen at festivals, etc, and disliked the music so paid no attention to remembering who they were).

I have also spoken to a few local avant garde drummers who told me that they often do things like turn off their monitor so they can't hear the band, in order to create a truly dissonant sound. There are also examples like the Sun Ra album (I forget the title), where everyone was in a different room and couldn't hear each other. They were told to play whatever they felt, and it was recorded without them even hearing each other.

Never once did I say that all avant garde drumming sounds like a drum solo, or that a very busy drum part is really just a drum solo. But there is no denying that some of the most modern avant garde music out there is not done with the same band mentality that we consider normal in music.
 
The funniest part about your rebuttal is that I don't really care what you personally think or thought about any of those examples, but rather that your inital post appeared to take a swipe at the music, and without ESP (great album!) other people reading your post might take it differently, and I felt the need to say "*IF*" that's what you really thought, then I have issues with what you're putting out there.

You love Interstellar Space? Great. Good on ya, matey.

Also, just wondering - as someone who has seen/played many an "avant-garde" show in LA/NYC/London/Chicago - I've almost never seen a show where the players had monitors...

And just to throw it out there - the description of Sun Ra's seperation of musicians in rooms reminds me of Simon H Fell's works of the past 15 years - (just commenting)
 
Recommendations

Listen to Roy Haynes - We Three
Dave Holland - Triple play (sax, drums, and bass...amazing)
Casper
 
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