When a student gets too good too quickly

Sondy Pasteurisen

Junior Member
Hi everyone,

I've been teaching this guy (16 years old) for about a year now (I'm a drum teacher from the north of England) and he came to me as a precocious metal-head - you know the sort: likes Portnoy and Peart and massive drum set-ups and ridiculous time signature poly-mash-ups.

I've steadily got him through most of his grades and he's now getting to the stage where his technique is utterly phenomenal and beginning to make me sweat a little.

The thing is, he can do all this stuff, but what he lacks is experience and groove - and subtlety. I've talked to him about this but he's more interested in 'brain-mangling groove of the week' (eventually you can only concoct so many, and it's only a facet of what drumming is about). He just can't lay it down.To him, it is boring. He can do it well enough, so why practise the money beat? In addition, he refuses to consider other genres outside of metal, expect perhaps funk and a small dash of fusion. His rudiments are good, his reading satisfactory and his musical brain precocious.

I'm at a loss of a continuing process for him.

Has anyone out there had this issue with a student and do you have any advice?

Thanks in advance...
 
A quick amendment: In the UK there are a few 'Grading' systems that a student can go through, usually Grades 1 - 8 which give them a fairly solid range of skills to build on. The two main ones are Rockschool and Trinity Guildhall (TG). TG is definitely the harder and more comprehensive, but most students go for the more populist and easier Rockschool.

This student has gone for the Rockschool grades. The problem arises from the fact that a student has to choose three performance pieces in various styles, but more often than not they go for the pieces that they find the least challenging. This is what he has done - he's chosen rock/metal/punk etc. and avoided all Jazz, Latin etc. He's now nearly at G8 but, in my view entirely un-equipped as a player...
 
It's hard to get into this stuff if they weren't exposed to it from that angle from the start. So much easier when they come in young, unexperienced and you're their first teacher. There's a basic humility towards music and art that's missing.

In my teaching I also teach ensemble, so I slowly try to introduce new styles and then through general comments and experience hopefully they start appreciating the deeper parts of making music.

How about having group lessons as a drum ensemble sometimes? Work on, listening and repeating, dynamics and longer pieces with turnarounds together.

I'm generally a big big fan of parroting phrases in my teaching and do it A LOT at all stages. I also often play bass along with my students and play whole songs where we work on structure, tradings fours(or whatever) and so on.

How about phrasing and melodic solos through a basic blues form?

Even though it's basic I still really like eg. Dave Weckl's Ultimate Play-a-long books. They really give anyone at any level some help with the meat and potatoes. Maybe if you have the opportunity to record him play along with something like that so he can hear himself in context?
 
Hi everyone,

I've been teaching this guy (16 years old) for about a year now (I'm a drum teacher from the north of England) and he came to me as a precocious metal-head - you know the sort: likes Portnoy and Peart and massive drum set-ups and ridiculous time signature poly-mash-ups.

I've steadily got him through most of his grades and he's now getting to the stage where his technique is utterly phenomenal and beginning to make me sweat a little.

The thing is, he can do all this stuff, but what he lacks is experience and groove - and subtlety. I've talked to him about this but he's more interested in 'brain-mangling groove of the week' (eventually you can only concoct so many, and it's only a facet of what drumming is about). He just can't lay it down.To him, it is boring. He can do it well enough, so why practise the money beat? In addition, he refuses to consider other genres outside of metal, expect perhaps funk and a small dash of fusion. His rudiments are good, his reading satisfactory and his musical brain precocious.

I'm at a loss of a continuing process for him.

Has anyone out there had this issue with a student and do you have any advice?

Thanks in advance...

If he won't get it, he won't get it. It may take a few years before the penny drops. But, if that's really all you have left to show him you either have to convince him to come down that path with you, or potentially send him on his way to someone else.

Have you tried putting him into a situation that he can't handle (sight-reading and/or playing a SIMPLE groove and making it sound/feel right (recording him is the best way to give him objective feedback) to try and show him what you're hearing/not hearing in his playing? Sometimes a little humbling can work. Creating a "studio" sort of environment has worked to get a few of my students to open their ears to their playing.
 
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First I'm not a teacher so can't offer you any advice based on experience.

How about doing some transcription work with him - getting him to transcribe whole songs which are technically challenging but have large chunks of groove in there as well? I recently watched, e.g. the Billy Cobham at 60 DVD - BC grooves like crazy and then will just let fly with some ridiculous polyrhythic fill (whilst looking like he's stirring a cup of tea). Similarly Vinnie C with Jeff Beck at Ronnie Scott's. If he works hard on transcribing whole songs it might just begin to register that you don't get to play full-on all the time.

All that said - he's sixteen. He knows everything and you know nothing (and don't understand him). You can only give him the benefit of your experience - not your experience. And as I started by saying, I have none of that.
 
Your role as a teacher can be compared to the role of a parent. You would not let a child eat only candy. That's what the child wants, but you know better. You know what nutritional needs the child has. If the child is fed correctly, he/she will develop into a healthy human being.

You have control over your curriculum, not the student. While you may want to include some solo ideas in each lesson (maybe at the end - like dessert after a meal), you want your students to be well rounded, accomplished performers. It is you who chooses your curriculum. With that established, it is the student's decision to sudy with you or another teacher.

Jeff
 
The thing is, he can do all this stuff, but what he lacks is experience and groove - and subtlety. I've talked to him about this but he's more interested in 'brain-mangling groove of the week' (eventually you can only concoct so many, and it's only a facet of what drumming is about).

With young students like that, it can be hard to simply convince them to play with subtlety. I think it usually works better if you give them assignments that naturally lead them toward playing with subtlety. For example, you can get your student working on jazz or maybe linear funk with tons of ghost notes and dynamics. You can have him do concert or rudimental snare solos, and insist that each piece sounds like a song rather than just a bunch of rudiments strung together. Or how about sending him to work at a local theater, where he has to read charts and play brushes behind a cabaret act? That'll be a wake up call he's unlikely to forget real soon! haha

In addition, he refuses to consider other genres outside of metal, expect perhaps funk and a small dash of fusion.

Well, that could make my previous suggestion a little tough...BUT...if you present everything as a challenge reserved for really good students, he might be up for it. In other words, you could tell him you think he's a really good drummer so you want to challenge him to rise up to the playing level of a real pro. Tell him about Neil Peart studying jazz and Gavin Harrison playing in pits on the West End. What precocious 16-year-old could resist the challenge of trying to do what his idols have done?

I'm at a loss of a continuing process for him.

I think you're only "at a loss" because you're trying too hard to mold your curriculum to the opinions of a 16-year-old student. A little flexibility is necessary, of course...but as Jeff pointed out, YOU are the teacher, and it's ultimately YOUR curriculum based on what YOU believe the student should work on. Once this has been established, it's up to the student to decide if he wants to study with you or not. And if he doesn't, that's OK too. Not every aspiring heavy metal drummer desires to study all aspects of drumming. At least your student took lessons for a year. Some don't take lessons at all. Same goes for aspiring jazz drummers, funk drummers, country drummers, and every other type of drummer out there. In the final equation, only he can choose what he does with his drumming...including how far he takes his formal studies.
 
I don't understand why it's so important to force a student to go where he/she doesn't want to go, although I do get why helping this student improve their groove is important.

As a teacher you can get all authoritarian with your curriculum and alienate some students who don't share your vision, or you can broaden your approach to satisfy the specific interest of the student. Drumming isn't like math where algebra has to be learned before calculus; simple beats don't need to be mastered to a Jeff Porcaro level of expertise before attempting the more challenging ones and there are many parallel competencies that don't need to be mastered at the same rate or in a specific order. If the student is interested in being well-rounded and versed in all the styles, then great. But if the student is intensely focused on a particular style or aspect of drumming, metal in this case, do you really want to stifle (or distract from) that motivation and focus? It's not that the student can't play a simple beat; it sounds like he doesn't want to. I don't see that there's much you can do about that.

But also in this case, the drummer is open to funk, which opens the door to breaking him away from his rigid 16th/32nd note metal obsession. I'd run with that in an effort to open up his groove and break the stiffness. It's probably your best tool at the moment.

I remember being a 16 year-old drummer who was pretty set on all the crazy stuff I wanted to learn, and learning the value of simplicity wasn't on my list - that didn't come until much later. I'm not the most well-rounded drummer on the planet, but FWIW, at 44 I like the way I play and still enjoy chasing the crazy stuff. Most of my drumming peers from my teen years who took lessons don't even play anymore.
 
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Be patient! Tastes change, ears develop (someday...), pennies drop.

Have you tried recording him, and see if he likes what he hears?

Also, since motivation is the best motor for learning, talk to him about his goals,
where he sees himself in "the business", what he wants to accomplish. If all that
doesn't have anything to do with tight, grooving music (which is nearly impossible
haha), then fine! If he does want to play, he will realize himself sooner or later.
 
Be patient! Tastes change, ears develop (someday...), pennies drop.

Have you tried recording him, and see if he likes what he hears?

Also, since motivation is the best motor for learning, talk to him about his goals,
where he sees himself in "the business", what he wants to accomplish. If all that
doesn't have anything to do with tight, grooving music (which is nearly impossible
haha), then fine! If he does want to play, he will realize himself sooner or later.

Good advice, esp about his goals. If all he ever wants to be is a metal drum, he is sure well equipped for that task.

I worked at a Drum School a few years back. The director had been teaching for 40 years. The first thing he said to me was, as Mike stated, Ken, you're still drumming. Most of these students won't be drumming for the rest of their lives. He also told me that students who don't do what you say are not worth your time because in the long run they are not a good reflection on you as a teacher. Then he said, "Remember, you've forgotten more than these kids need to learn about music."

But when you are doing this for a living, you need to find ways to keep students and keep them interested. I would suggest integrating videos into the curriculum, if you haven't done that. You can talk about various drummers, the history of drumming or lessons of the greats available on video. You can take a drummer like Neil Peart and look at his influences. Talk about Moon and Mitchell, how Mitchell started as a jazz drummer, and then guys like Buddy, Krupa or Art Blakey. I spend some time with videos with some of the students talking about the videos to keep them engaged. This may be a way to get him interested in other genres. But I had a student like that last year. He said, I need some time off and never called back. When he said that, I thought well good riddance. It gets frustrating when a sixteen year old is not open to what the teacher has to say. btw. My sister has worked in Brixton and Tottenham. She could tell you a few stories about dealing with kids who don't want to learn or listen to what you say.
 
I think you should be commended for realizing that for all his technical accomplishments he lacks groove. I wish my first drum teachers had bothered to teach me that stuff.

I'd say suspend teaching drums for a few lessons, and focus on teaching music.

During the brief time I taught, I would bring in a guitar, and play some chords, and simulate a jam session to really give the student the idea of what it's like to play with other musicians.

The best experience I has as student is when Dave Beyer taught me how to play music. We broke down songs, and studied how typical songs were 8 bar phrases, how to break down parts of songs into easily memorable parts, and how to write out a cheat sheet for learning a new song. That became more valuable to me than all the years of coordination exercises.

Maybe you can bring in a pre-recorded session, music with a click minus drums, and play the role of producer. Record his drumming to the click with the music and point out what is right and what isn't happening. Explain how this could be the difference between making $100 for quick session and being sent home.

When you can show him how drums work in a musical context, I think he'll come around and realize there is more than just playing complex fills. Most kids, when they sit at home and play along to their favorite records, don't realize how much they're missing because to their ear they're lining up with the pre-recorded drums, and that appears to be good enough, when we all know playing without pre-recorded drums is completely different.
 
I don't understand why it's so important to force a student to go where he/she doesn't want to go, although I do get why helping this student improve their groove is important.

As a teacher you can get all authoritarian with your curriculum and alienate some students who don't share your vision, or you can broaden your approach to satisfy the specific interest of the student.

I don't think Sondy said he wanted to force his student to go where the student didn't want to go. He said that he noticed certain qualities lacking in the playing of his student (like subtlety, groove, etc.), and he wanted to figure out how to proceed forward. I think it's the teacher's job to come up with a curriculum to work on those areas that are lacking. If the teacher does this and the student isn't interested in taking the journey, then there are some decisions to be made. Either the student can quit lessons and just drum on their own in their own way...or the student and teacher can reach an agreement that the lessons will be something other than what the teacher truly feels is best. There are no real rules here, but it should probably be discussed directly.

I once had a student who refused to learn reading. It was turning into a weekly battle, so we finally discussed it at length and reached an agreement. I told the student why I thought learning to read would be helpful. I also told the student that my personal teaching approach involves the use of notation for learning certain skills. The student said they still didn't want anything to do with reading, but that they did want to continue lessons for the other things they were learning. I told the student that we could proceed forward without any reading involved, but that they needed to understand that it would ultimately limit how much drumming I could teach them in general. The student understood and accepted this, and we continued on. It worked out alright. So flexibility is good, but in my opinion, this is different than simply following the whims of each student with no regard for a clear curriculum.
 
Also, find every interview with Kenny Arnoff and give him a copy.

Kenny has a great story about how he was classically trained, he studied at a major university and studied under Vic Firth, and yet, when it came to his first session, he got thrown off the album because he could not just lay it down and groove to the click, and how he learned from that experience.
 
I don't think Sondy said he wanted to force his student to go where the student didn't want to go. He said that he noticed certain qualities lacking in the playing of his student (like subtlety, groove, etc.), and he wanted to figure out how to proceed forward. I think it's the teacher's job to come up with a curriculum to work on those areas that are lacking.
I agree with you; I think Sondy explained perfectly that he was at a loss for how to get the kid down the path of being able to make something simple groove. The student was lacking "experience, groove and subtlety," which to some degree are acquired traits that are much harder to teach (you have to want to learn those things). It was some of the other more dogmatic responses along the lines of "my way or the highway" that inspired my post.

Hats off to you for continuing on with a student who refused to learn reading. That's in the spirit of what I was trying to get at, but might have been a little further than I'd be willing to go!
 
I wish my first drum teachers had bothered to teach me that stuff.
Oh yes, I absolutely second that!! My first teacher didn't really point that out to me either,
let alone work on it!
Deltadrummer said:
Good advice, esp about his goals. If all he ever wants to be is a metal drum, he is sure well equipped for that task.
Yes, although, he still should play the things he plays well, no matter the genre!
In the end it's all music, with time, groove, form and dynamics (few dynamics in
metal, but still, LOL). So I'd say he's just well equipped if all he wants to do doesn't
involve playing in a band.
 
I would tell him to check out youtube vids of Peart playing at the Burning for Buddy concert,or the Buddy Rich Memorial concert to watch Neil playing......OMG..Jazz,with a big band and not a Marshall stack in sight.
Or how about Mike Portnoy playing Beatle covers at BB Kings in NY City..also on youtube

I remember when I was 16 and posessed the the total sum of mans combined knowledge,but even before then,I listened to Buddy,Gene,Joe Morello,Elvin Jones,as well as Baker,Mitchel,Clive Bunker,Appice,and Bonzo.And ask any one of the Rock guys who they listened to.Buddy was playing blast beats before anybody.

I know after raising kids of my own and as a veteran scoutmaster,what its like when an unstoppable force meets an imoveable object.You do the best you can...and move on.Cheers mate.

Steve B
 
Issue him to go to a jam session/open mic with more experienced players. His own natural curiosity on why it sounds wrong will get the best of him.

I agree with this. He needs to overplay and fail publicly. If he's a metal guy, he probably thinks blues is below him in ability, so I would make the next lesson at an open mic blues jam. According to him, he should be able to ace it.
He thinks it's boring to just lay it down....I used to be like that too. I don't know that anyone could have made me see the light at that time. Tough wall for sure.
 
It was some of the other more dogmatic responses along the lines of "my way or the highway" that inspired my post.

Hats off to you for continuing on with a student who refused to learn reading. That's in the spirit of what I was trying to get at, but might have been a little further than I'd be willing to go!

I do not consider it "my way or the highway." It's more of not compromising my values. I take teaching very seriously an feel good knowing that I give 100%. If a student refuses to do something that I ask of him, what should I do - water it down just to keep the money coming in? No, I don't do that. Many teachers do. Many are afraid to lose students so they let the students run the lesson - to the detriment of both teacher and student. The teacher knows that he/she is only giving the student a fraction of what they should get. And the student actually does not progress in the essential areas. Who really benefits to the fullest extent? - nobody.

I think the problem the original poster may have is that he has already let the student choose the curriculum. So now to be firm and say, "we really need to concentrate on this" may be met with resistance.

Jeff
 
I've had two teachers who really meant a lot to me...mentors actually.

And if one of them told me to do something as significant as what you're sharing, that's what I did or I knew that teacher was going to shake my hand and say see ya around.

I also think I need to investigate this whole UK grading system thing because I hear you guys talking about it and in many ways I just dont understand. With that said, I'm in no way discounting the ability of a musician who can get through all the grades, because it sounds like you have to have some game to do it. In fact I think anyone willing to acquire that discipline is doing something good, and an accomplishment remains an accomplishment. Moreover, I'm aware that some of you here made it to grade 8 and are top rank players.

I'm only drawing into question anything that passes as a versatility comprehensive national standard that allows students the leeway to bypass gigantic absolutely required to be versatile components. And what exactly is this Rockschool stuff? Again...not to discount, but to an American that's going to sound like what goes on in a Jack Black movie.
 
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