Confusion on rolls - open or closed?

Just to clairfy applying any of the roll rudiments performed in snare solos.

Unless specified, are all the rolls (ie., 5 stroke, 7, stroke, etc) considered open even though at faster tempos they seem to be closed? I'm under the assumption that if a buzz roll in specified, then this is a closed roll (ie, multiple bounce)?

It depends on the style of the piece. In rudimental solos, rolls are assumed to be open, unless the music indicates a buzz roll; on solos that aren't specifically in a rudimental style, the rolls should be closed.

Buzz = closed = multiple-bounce. Open = exactly two notes per hand motion, regardless of the sound.

Thanks Todd, I typed up a wordy response then deleted after I realized I wasn't quite sure. Figured someone who knew better than I would be along shortly.

Follow up question: A double stroke can be denoted as a note with a slash through the stem. Do 2 slashes denote a press roll? I have mostly seen them written with a little "Z" through the note stem.

This is an interesting topic for sure.

I come from a rudimental/maching background, so if I see a note with slashes through it, I think open. If I see a z, its buzz.

In high school jazz band, I would play this very basic fill in swing songs. I'd play a set of swung notes on the snare on "4 and" and then lead up to that with a buzz on the "and of 3". Drum teacher came in one day, said "when you do that type of fill, try dragging the lead in instead of buzzing."

That mindset has helped me steer away from buzzing anything in general, unless I specifically need to play a buzz roll, which isn't that often. Open rolls/double strokes/drags just sound cleaner, more pronounced, and even though more difficult, are so much more fun to play and pull off correctly.

That's of course my opinion, and definitely not the gospel. Buzz all you want. That's how I personally approach rolls though. General open, with the rare occasion that I'll close it.

todd as always I can depend on your input.

But thankx to the others, it's the confirmation I was looking for. Now to get my rolls clean at faster tempos....

toddbishop said:

It depends on the style of the piece. In rudimental solos, rolls are assumed to be open, unless the music indicates a buzz roll; on solos that aren't specifically in a rudimental style, the rolls should be closed.

Buzz = closed = multiple-bounce. Open = exactly two notes per hand motion, regardless of the sound.

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Red Menace said:

Thanks Todd, I typed up a wordy response then deleted after I realized I wasn't quite sure. Figured someone who knew better than I would be along shortly.

Follow up question: A double stroke can be denoted as a note with a slash through the stem. Do 2 slashes denote a press roll? I have mostly seen them written with a little "Z" through the note stem.

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The slashes are shorthand, instead of writing out RRLLRRLL......

The only qualification I'd make to the word "closed" is when performing a traditional rudimental breakdown. If you play a rudiment played slow to fast to slow, you'll also hear it referred to as "open - closed - open". In this instance "closed" means top speed, not buzzed. So in the case of a double stroke roll breakdown, you're always playing doubles, even when the strokes are very close together.

ronyd said:

The slashes are shorthand, instead of writing out RRLLRRLL......

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I am well aware of shorthand notation. I was inquiring about which is used to denote an open roll and which is used to denote a closed roll.

IRRC... 2 slashes=open roll and 3 slashes/Z=closed roll.

Red Menace said:

Follow up question: A double stroke can be denoted as a note with a slash through the stem. Do 2 slashes denote a press roll? I have mostly seen them written with a little "Z" through the note stem.

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The Z means it should be a closed roll, and the slashes are used for either open or closed-- again, according to the style of the piece.

The slashes are really a way of abbreviating beamed note values: 1 slash = 1 beam. You add up the number of actual beams + plus slashes, and then play that rhythm for the duration of the written note. So a quarter note with one slash on the stem means you play two 8th notes; two slashes on a quarter note means to play four 16th notes. An 8th note with a slash means to play two 16th notes.

The slashes happen to be used for rolls because it's a convention of American drumming to write rolls as 32nd notes, regardless of the actual rhythm being played during the roll, or if the roll is open/double-stroke, or multiple-bounce. That's why you see two slashes on an 8th note duration roll, and three slashes on quarter/half/whole note durations.

JohnW said:

The only qualification I'd make to the word "closed" is when performing a traditional rudimental breakdown. If you play a rudiment played slow to fast to slow, you'll also hear it referred to as "open - closed - open". In this instance "closed" means top speed, not buzzed. So in the case of a double stroke roll breakdown, you're always playing doubles, even when the strokes are very close together.

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Hmm, never heard that one. That makes sense. The meaning has shifted a little bit, I think, since in practice, closed is frequently used interchangeably with multiple-bounce, buzz, "orchestral", or whatever.

toddbishop said:

Hmm, never heard that one. That makes sense. The meaning has shifted a little bit, I think, since in practice, closed is frequently used interchangeably with multiple-bounce, buzz, "orchestral", or whatever.

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You're right, Todd. If someone says, "play a closed roll", I assume they mean play a buzzed or multiple bounce roll. The exception I hear is in the context of a breakdown.

Now in the Pipe Band world I've heard it applied to phrases with doubles or diddles in it. Usually it's not a good thing; like when you're rushing. "Open up your doubles! You're playing them too closed."

JohnW said:

The only qualification I'd make to the word "closed" is when performing a traditional rudimental breakdown.

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Can I ask for clarification on what a rudimental breakdown is John? Is that a long roll or can that apply to any rudiment?

Red Menace said:

Can I ask for clarification on what a rudimental breakdown is John? Is that a long roll or can that apply to any rudiment?

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They can be done with any rudiment. You usually hear it with the long roll, though. Some schools of thought play breakdowns just "Open - Close" or slow to fast. As soon as you get to top speed you stop.

But the real challenge (to me anyway) is going "Open - Close - Open", back down to your original tempo at an even pace. Now some very successful players don't like it because you're not keeping a steady tempo and you're not really playing in a "musical" context. But I look at it as an art form in and of itself, where you strive to build this uniform sound and break it down in a symmetrical fashion.

As JohnW points out, the exception to what "closed" means in the context of a roll is in the breakdown. And I agree, open-closed-open is the hardest variety; that's what separates the grown-ups from the kids. You could tell the old-timers like Carson and Mazur put countless hours in perfecting coming out of those rolls. I believe one of the few ticks Mazur got when he won individuals in 1976 was a mistake coming out of a breakdown. I would kill to make "mistakes" like that!

Most of the time I play rolls, it's in a concert band setting. You're in essence sustaining a quarter/eighth/half note, so I always play them closed. Unless the director instructs to do otherwise.

I practice BOTH. open doubles work the wrists and fingers as a unit, closed works on finger and fulcrum pressure. Legato vs. Staccato.

In an orchestral context they are all buzzed, rudimental or otherwise they are open double stroke rhythms.

The question of slashes through the note stem came up; here's the deal: A slash through the stem or over it if it's a whole note is a simple shorthand to play two notes of half the value. In the most common context and 16th note with a slash through the stem tells you to play two 32nd notes there, usually as a diddle (but no necessarily). 8th notes with slashes through them tell you to play 16th notes--it's just a shorthand.

To get more obscure, a whole note with one slash over it would tell you play a bar of 8th notes, two slashes over it = a bar of 16ths, 3 = a bar of 32nd note open roll (unless you're in an orchestral context and then we're back to square 1 with a bar's worth of buzz).

And finally, in a rudimental context buzz rolls are noted with "Z's" through the stems such that you'll know what primary stroke note rate to choose.

Oh, and I strongly dislike the descriptor "open-closed-open" for slow to fast to slow rudimental breakdowns. Some people misunderstand and in the middle of their roll suddenly switch to a buzz roll. To me that's a lot like the moment when the plane hits the side of the mountain.

BillBachman said:

Oh, and I strongly dislike the descriptor "open-closed-open" for slow to fast to slow rudimental breakdowns. Some people misunderstand and in the middle of their roll suddenly switch to a buzz roll. To me that's a lot like the moment when the plane hits the side of the mountain.

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A horror show involving search and rescue, cannibalism, lawsuits...

It has an old school connotation from the days when buzz rolls weren't common. So from now on I'll use 'slow to fast to slow'.

BillBachman said:

In an orchestral context they are all buzzed, rudimental or otherwise they are open double stroke rhythms.

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I do not consider a closed roll a "buzz" roll in any context, but especially not in orchestral context. If I'm playing a closed roll, I'm doing either 3 or 4 bounces per stroke (assuming the tempo isn't insanely-fast), but not pressing into the head (like I would do in jazz).

edit: personally, I can't stand the "Z" notating rolls.

While we're beating a dead horse, here are a couple of things to add to the confusion. (And I don't want to flame contention, I just want to highlight some of the fascinating history of these patterns. The more you research them, the more contradictions come up. Just look at it as interesting)...

The 1960 Wm F. Ludwig recording of Frank Arsenault playing the 26 Standard (N.A.R.D.) American Drum Rudiments has an introduction which states, "Start each rudiment slowly. Gradually increasing speed evenly until the rudiment is closed. Then, gradually decrease speed, opening the rudiment." Whether they're diddle, flam or drag rudiments, the individual strokes are distinct and the only thing that changes is the space between them, based on the tempo. No movement is crushed and no buzzes are part of this list of 26. NARD was disbanded at the end of 1977 and lay dormant for 31 years.

In the meantime, the rudimental mantle was taken up by P.A.S., which updated the list to 40 and released a recording in 1984 with Rob Carson playing each one. The introduction states, "Each rudiment will be broken down in a traditional, rudimental contest style. The rudiment will be performed open, which is slow, to closed, which is fast, to open."

So far, this isn't a lot of conceptual difference, except when it comes to the multiple bounce roll. At this point, the instruction is, "It is recommended that the multiple bounce roll be performed in a closed manner. Start at pianissimo and crescendo to fortissimo, then diminuendo to pianissimo." This is where confusion can crop up. I look at multiple bounce as being any more than two, though an arbitrary number. But on this recording, it's clear that "closed" means buzzed. The breakdown here means quiet - loud - quiet, with a uniform buzz texture throughout. I do not detect a change in the rate that the hands alternate. And I certainly don't hear a change in roll texture; there's no modulation from say 3 strokes per hand to 4, 5 or 6. It's just one buzz or "closed movement" per hand, with each hand alternating evenly.

So this is my long winded way of saying, unless you're dealing with an old school player who knows enough to parse the difference, say "fast" for top speed.