music theory: a necessity for drummers

Does knowing how to read and write hinder you from being able to think or speak?

Written music is simply a tool to communicate and share knowledge. If you can read you can read you can take advanntage of a huge amount of knowledge on pretty much any conceivable musical concept.

Obviously, the average person today seems incapable of any sort of independent thought, but that's about someting different, which usually stems from lack of knowledge as well. lol


Offcourse there is a problem with being totally dependent on a piece of paper, too. I remember back at university when I wanted to play a simple blues based rock tune and the drummer was almost shock that I didn't bring some written music. Some things is expected that a musician should be able to do spontaneously. I had also sent out an mp3 of the song long before, so if it was that important................

Certain skills should be expected of any musician with a bit of experience and more knowledge of any kind never hurt anyone except for the obligatory envious slander that sometimes ensues when someone gets really good at something. That's however a discussion for another day.
 
My feeling about music theory is that, while it's no substitute for creativity, it does provide a solid framework for problem solving, i.e. if something doesn't sound 'right', a grasp of the theory can help explain why.
 
If you want to be a drummer then NO you do not need music theory.

If you want to be a musician who happens to play the drums they ABSOLUTELY YES you need to know and understand music theory.
 
I've always found that it can't hurt to know more about your instrument. Some things may be worth more than others, you gotta know the right things. But again, why not learn as much as you can about your instrument?
Exactly ...I am missing so much and believe I could learn a lot smarter and faster with with the knowledge of reading in my tool box...
 
Theory is not at all necessary for a drummer to know. 'Feel', on the other hand, is.

Knowing some theory can help greatly, but you don't NEED it
 
Theory is not at all necessary for a drummer to know. 'Feel', on the other hand, is.

Knowing some theory can help greatly, but you don't NEED it

That is my line of thought too. It's something that can supplement the learning process. But there is no substitute to the learning process itself. Theory can only get you so far. Practical application in the real world can be a substitute for learning by rote.

- Reggae Mangle
 
Theory is not at all necessary for a drummer to know. 'Feel', on the other hand, is.

Knowing some theory can help greatly, but you don't NEED it

That is my line of thought too. It's something that can supplement the learning process. But there is no substitute to the learning process itself. Theory can only get you so far. Practical application in the real world can be a substitute for learning by rote.

- Reggae Mangle

Can you define feel without reference to concepts which fall under music theory?
 
Can you define feel without reference to concepts which fall under music theory?

I don't think you can define feel WITH concepts of music theory, or really by any means that come to mind. Feel, to me, is not something you should have to learn. It's just something you have or don't have. Kind of like common sense.

When you're at a live show, and you see the one guy tapping his foot, way out of time, and sporadically - That guy doen't have feel. Sure, he can study theory as much as he wants, and he can spend all of his money on the best music teacher he can afford, but it's not likely that he will develop the kind of feel necessary to be more than just a mediocre musician.

I know this, because a very good friend of mine IS that guy. He took years of piano lessons, and has been playing music his entire life, but he still doesn't have the 'feel' for it. He knows much more about music theory than I probably ever will, but he cannot translate it over into playing, because he lacks that, almost instinctual sense of musicianship.
 
I don't think you can define feel WITH concepts of music theory, or really by any means that come to mind. Feel, to me, is not something you should have to learn. It's just something you have or don't have. Kind of like common sense.

When you're at a live show, and you see the one guy tapping his foot, way out of time, and sporadically - That guy doen't have feel. Sure, he can study theory as much as he wants, and he can spend all of his money on the best music teacher he can afford, but it's not likely that he will develop the kind of feel necessary to be more than just a mediocre musician.

I know this, because a very good friend of mine IS that guy. He took years of piano lessons, and has been playing music his entire life, but he still doesn't have the 'feel' for it. He knows much more about music theory than I probably ever will, but he cannot translate it over into playing, because he lacks that, almost instinctual sense of musicianship.

I agree with this. I too know a guy, guitar player, who spent years learning to play solos. He reads well, can talk guitar tech and theory, but can't play a basic riff to save his life. His solos are amazing, but what good is that if you can't play the rest of the song that leads up to the solo?
 
I don't think you can define feel WITH concepts of music theory, or really by any means that come to mind. Feel, to me, is not something you should have to learn. It's just something you have or don't have. Kind of like common sense.

When you're at a live show, and you see the one guy tapping his foot, way out of time, and sporadically - That guy doen't have feel. Sure, he can study theory as much as he wants, and he can spend all of his money on the best music teacher he can afford, but it's not likely that he will develop the kind of feel necessary to be more than just a mediocre musician.

I know this, because a very good friend of mine IS that guy. He took years of piano lessons, and has been playing music his entire life, but he still doesn't have the 'feel' for it. He knows much more about music theory than I probably ever will, but he cannot translate it over into playing, because he lacks that, almost instinctual sense of musicianship.

So the example of this friend of yours proves this situation to be true in all cases?

In the time the OP took to read this thread, he could have learned to count 16ths, play 20 chords in the key of C major, and learned a blues scale.

The rare exceptions that have limited knowledge of music theory are overwhelmingly from generations ago or don't last very long in the business. If the OP wishes to have this kind of "lottery ticket" success, then he should ignore theory.

If, however, he has a realistic idea of the expectations of the modern music world, has any desire to continue to perform with skilled players, wants to teach, or wants music to be anything more than a pastime or hobby, then he should learn theory, and lots of it. He should find a teacher that knows and likes to teach the theory behind the songs as well.

Learning to compose and arrange the latest pop tune does require theory, btw. Does anyone think the producers and engineers that work on those records don't understand harmony?

Does anyone realize how much theory that most big name drummers actually know?
 
Necessity? No.

Helpful? yes.

Do I wish I knew more theory? Hell yes.

I took classes way back when, but I got so busy gigging, I never had much reason to apply them, so I've forgotten most of what I learned.
 
So the example of this friend of yours proves this situation to be true in all cases?

In the time the OP took to read this thread, he could have learned to count 16ths, play 20 chords in the key of C major, and learned a blues scale.

The rare exceptions that have limited knowledge of music theory are overwhelmingly from generations ago or don't last very long in the business. If the OP wishes to have this kind of "lottery ticket" success, then he should ignore theory.

If, however, he has a realistic idea of the expectations of the modern music world, has any desire to continue to perform with skilled players, wants to teach, or wants music to be anything more than a pastime or hobby, then he should learn theory, and lots of it. He should find a teacher that knows and likes to teach the theory behind the songs as well.

Learning to compose and arrange the latest pop tune does require theory, btw. Does anyone think the producers and engineers that work on those records don't understand harmony?

Does anyone realize how much theory that most big name drummers actually know?

The fact that this is your response just proves that you didn't understand and/or take from my statement, what was meant to be the message.

Point is, nothing that you do in music REQUIRES the knowledge of music theory, but having that knowledge is extremely helpful. You don't HAVE to know theory to know how to count, or what chord sounds good with the previous one. It just makes it easier to communicate things, and makes the writing process faster. Gives you a better ability to improvise and make key and tempo changes and such, but some music just doesn't call for it.

While you may have an extensive knowledge of theory, musicians like Dave Grohl have made a much bigger impact on everybody's lives with their music than you likely ever will, and he has admitted to not using theory when writing music. Heck, he said this in a press converence:

“I’m not a director. I’m not a drummer. I’m not a guitar player. I fake all of these things. I never took lessons to do any of this shit. I don’t know — I can’t read music. I hold my drumsticks backwards. I don’t know what a director is. But I do know, if you sit down with a clear idea of what you want to do, if it’s in your head and you can actualize it or visualize it… well, then, you wind up with something that makes sense.”

You don't need it. It's nice to have, but you don't need it.
 
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Does anyone realize how much theory that most big name drummers actually know?

Or better yet, how much theory do untrained musicians not know that they know? If you spend enough time with music, you will learn things that work and things that don't. But until you sit down and learn why, your practice is good but your understanding of the theory behind it is not.
 
Point is, nothing that you do in music REQUIRES the knowledge of music theory, but having that knowledge is extremely helpful. You don't HAVE to know theory to know how to count, or what chord sounds good with the previous one. It just makes it easier to communicate things, and makes the writing process faster. Gives you a better ability to improvise and make key and tempo changes and such, but some music just doesn't call for it.

Which is actually a form of theory. If you know that D works well with G, then you've actually learned some theory.

While you may have an extensive knowledge of theory, musicians like Dave Grohl have made a much bigger impact on everybody's lives with his music than you likely ever will, and he has admitted to not using theory when writing music. Heck, he said this in a press converence:

I've got all of the time in the World for Dave Grohl. I absolutely have. If you are serious about becoming a professional drummer though, you have to learn theory - unless you rely on 'lottery ticket' success. The simple fact is that the majority of working musicians have extensive knowledge of theory and that is the case for a very good reason. It gives musicians a universal language by which to communicate musical ideas extramusically. If I say to you that 'play an A chord, then an F minor' and then ask you to change the F minor to an F minor 7 and then ask you to change the first chord to a G but to keep the same scale interval in the chord progression - which is a very common musical situation - without at least some knowledge of theory, you're stuffed.

As drummers, we operate outside of conventional melodic and harmonic theory and in Western music, our sense of rhythm and sophistication of rhythm is - in global terms - fairly basic. As a result, we as drummers think we can get away without learning basic theory and - quite simply - if you're serious about becoming a drummer, unless you are very lucky - you're not going to get anywhere unless you understand theory. No, it's not necessary in the strict sense of the word but it still amazes me that drummers consider themselves somehow different from other musicians when it comes to learning theory.
 
Which is actually a form of theory. If you know that D works well with G, then you've actually learned some theory.

That is, assuming that you know what chords you are actually playing. Almost anything somebody does musically can be broken down theoretically, but that doesn't mean that any amount of theory was used to create the piece.

I've got all of the time in the World for Dave Grohl. I absolutely have. If you are serious about becoming a professional drummer though, you have to learn theory - unless you rely on 'lottery ticket' success. The simple fact is that the majority of working musicians have extensive knowledge of theory and that is the case for a very good reason. It gives musicians a universal language by which to communicate musical ideas extramusically. If I say to you that 'play an A chord, then an F minor' and then ask you to change the F minor to an F minor 7 and then ask you to change the first chord to a G but to keep the same scale interval in the chord progression - which is a very common musical situation - without at least some knowledge of theory, you're stuffed.

As drummers, we operate outside of conventional melodic and harmonic theory and in Western music, our sense of rhythm and sophistication of rhythm is - in global terms - fairly basic. As a result, we as drummers think we can get away without learning basic theory and - quite simply - if you're serious about becoming a drummer, unless you are very lucky - you're not going to get anywhere unless you understand theory. No, it's not necessary in the strict sense of the word but it still amazes me that drummers consider themselves somehow different from other musicians when it comes to learning theory.

Don't get me wrong, I know basic theory, and I utilize it in my playing and writing, but I don't think for a second that I'm a better musician because of it. I just know that it makes getting to the end result quicker, and makes the communication of it easier.

And, statistically speaking, unless you are very lucky, you're not going to get very far even if you DO have an extensive knowledge of theory. You may have a couple of international tours, or have a stint of popularity and acknowledgement, but you're likely just going to end up as another one that just 'didn't quite make it'.
 
And, statistically speaking, unless you are very lucky, you're not going to get very far even if you DO have an extensive knowledge of theory. You may have a couple of international tours, or have a stint of popularity and acknowledgement, but you're likely just going to end up as another one that just 'didn't quite make it'.

You're confusing the heady World of Rock and Roll with my experience of music theory in general. As with any career, a good deal of luck will get you the best positions and there are plenty that fail at a music career even with traditional musical training. 'Success' as you describe it, though, is a very narrow definition. Your definition assumes that playing music will be your sole - or at least major - source of income. For most musicians, this is not the case. Most musicians that I know (and I know a fair few, believe me) make their livings from teaching or lecturing. There are a maybe one or two that my brother (a serious Pianist) knew that are also performers but to make a viable career from music does not mean that you have to go on international tours.

I went to University and my degree (Music Technology) ran in parallel to the music degree. Within those that completed the music degree, those that spent the time perfecting their knowledge of theory (it was already a prerequisite) and worked hard with their instrument were universally those that came out of the degree with the prospect of a career in music - performing or otherwise. At least in the UK, most school music teachers will have to have a high level of theoretical expertise - otherwise they can't get the qualification to teach in a school (for better or for worse). I can corroborate this because my ex-girlfriend and at least three other people that I know are now teaching music in schools. Teaching a specific instrument depends upon the instrument but if it's anything orchestral or even on the fringes of being orchestral, then if you don't know theory, then you haven't got a career.

The only instrumental community that I know of where it's possible to have a teaching career as a private tutor and still not know traditional theory is amongst drummers. Any decent guitar teacher will know some, bass players, keyboard players and almost any other instrument you care to mention will have to have some theoretical practise. On the drums, the best teachers do but there are still many that don't and I find that surprising.

So no. Not strictly necessary in the literal sense of the word but if we look at drums, we are very much the exception in the larger Western musical World. If you tried teaching the Violin and admitted to not being able to read, you would be laughed at mercilessly.
 
You're confusing the heady World of Rock and Roll with my experience of music theory in general. As with any career, a good deal of luck will get you the best positions and there are plenty that fail at a music career even with traditional musical training. 'Success' as you describe it, though, is a very narrow definition. Your definition assumes that playing music will be your sole - or at least major - source of income. For most musicians, this is not the case. Most musicians that I know (and I know a fair few, believe me) make their livings from teaching or lecturing. There are a maybe one or two that my brother (a serious Pianist) knew that are also performers but to make a viable career from music does not mean that you have to go on international tours.

I went to University and my degree (Music Technology) ran in parallel to the music degree. Within those that completed the music degree, those that spent the time perfecting their knowledge of theory (it was already a prerequisite) and worked hard with their instrument were universally those that came out of the degree with the prospect of a career in music - performing or otherwise. At least in the UK, most school music teachers will have to have a high level of theoretical expertise - otherwise they can't get the qualification to teach in a school (for better or for worse). I can corroborate this because my ex-girlfriend and at least three other people that I know are now teaching music in schools. Teaching a specific instrument depends upon the instrument but if it's anything orchestral or even on the fringes of being orchestral, then if you don't know theory, then you haven't got a career.

The only instrumental community that I know of where it's possible to have a teaching career as a private tutor and still not know traditional theory is amongst drummers. Any decent guitar teacher will know some, bass players, keyboard players and almost any other instrument you care to mention will have to have some theoretical practise. On the drums, the best teachers do but there are still many that don't and I find that surprising.

So no. Not strictly necessary in the literal sense of the word but if we look at drums, we are very much the exception in the larger Western musical World. If you tried teaching the Violin and admitted to not being able to read, you would be laughed at mercilessly.

I guess I never considered teaching to be a good career in music, as I never want to teach music. I just don't have the patience for it. Then, I agree in the sense that, if you ever want to teach music, that having a good knowledge of theory is a must.

I still stand by my ideals in that, in performing and writing music, theory is not necessary.

I'll just chalk up debating about music theory right next to debating about religion and politics on my list of things you should never do on the internet.
 
I might have told this story before, about the TV bank commercial jingle. Everyone's set up in the nice big studio, I'm in my little room with my headphones on, looking through the glass, we've all got our charts and we're all tuned up and ready to go. We start. We stop. We start. We stop. The pedal steel player's a young guy I've never seen before. The producer says "Come back into the control room, we'll dub you in later." Kid has that "I'm dead" smile on his face. He knows he won't get called back. He can't read. It's just assumed that studio players can read. This kid is dead. Time has been wasted, the producer is pissed off.

I didn't know how he felt, the kid, because that had never happened to me.

It's your choice.
 
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