Drummers who play too much!

I think the colonel's post was quite insightful. One must play judiciously and adapt as the situation demands it, and if that means augmenting the music with a simple groove or bombastic fills, then so be it.
 
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This has the makings of groove vs chops saga part 929693220....

Isn't overplaying subjective...I've heard people say Vinnie overplayed with Herbie and this was on a "Vinnie is God" forum....Herbi looked like he was having the time of his life hearing the chopfest on drums....

Same thing said of Weckl but thats what I want pay to see, someone push the envelope in a musical situation....If I want pocket then I'll check out Jordan of Ferrone but thats not what I want to see.....

Now overplaying and just bad playing are two different things...If the fills were rushed and the timing was all over the place then thats just a bad drummer thinking hes all that trying to show off...
 
every drummer should record himself and listen, REALLY LISTEN!...i have thought i played great stuff many a time, but afterwards i realised that i was playing on the off beat too much ( i do that alot!)......it's a great tool

This is a great tool! It always makes me judge myself like a do others, and as a listener will judge you. Good call!
 
Well when I look at the videos from my last show it's obvious to me that I was underplaying. I may have been a little too loud in parts but all in all I could have done a lot to be more in charge of the beat. I seemed along for the ride rather than pushing the others along ESPECIALLY because our singer backed out and we had to play as an instrumental group. That's not to say I feel I played poorly, I played the parts well but there was more that could and ultimately should have been done.

Wish I knew then what I know now *shrug* live and learn.
 
I'll go with numbers one and two. No need to hit the drums very hard, IMO. That leads to loss of control. I'd replace "hard" with "confident." Make sure your strokes are confident and sure. They need not be stuck hard.

Yeah, that's the word I was looking for.
 
I think there is no such thing like playing too much or less is more or playing on a 3 piece set or on a 10, 0000 Tom Tom set.
Its all personal preference and self expression. some like it, some dont.

Keith Moon played like there is no tomorrow, some liked it, some didnt.

Charley Watts plays simple beats on a 4 piece and makes millions than who sweats on a
10, 0000 tom tom set showing off his chops every now and then.

To me, it depends on the song , own personnel preference, how each person view drumming.
There is no right or wrong side.
 
Well when I look at the videos from my last show it's obvious to me that I was underplaying. I may have been a little too loud in parts but all in all I could have done a lot to be more in charge of the beat. I seemed along for the ride rather than pushing the others along ESPECIALLY because our singer backed out and we had to play as an instrumental group. That's not to say I feel I played poorly, I played the parts well but there was more that could and ultimately should have been done.

Wish I knew then what I know now *shrug* live and learn.

Good points, especially about being "in charge of the beat." Depending on the genre and setting, different musicians in the band will need to take charge of the music at different times to move the music forward. A drummer who is too timid when he should be flashy is as bad as a drummer who is too cocky when he should be holding back. Monster chops and groove-oriented simplicity each have their time and place and a good musician knows when to apply each.

It is the job of the drummer to light a fire under the ass of the rest of the band. Sometimes it's just a Bic lighter and sometimes it's a flamethrower and you have to know when to apply each.
 
It is the job of the drummer to light a fire under the ass of the rest of the band. Sometimes it's just a Bic lighter and sometimes it's a flamethrower and you have to know when to apply each.

You put this very well. I saw a band recently that demonstrates just how important a good drummer is to a band. This particular band has 2 drummers but drummer #1 does a set on rhythm guitar and then plays the rest of the sets on drums. Meanwhile drummer #2 steps out front as a vocalist. Drummer #2 is a much better vocalist than he is a drummer. When drummer #1 switches from rhythm guitar to drums the band goes from a good band to an amazing band. I asked the band leader why they don't just have drummer #1 on drums the whole time and it boils down to drummer #2 was the original drummer and it is better for his voice to not be lead vocalist for all 3 sets and instead play drums and sing backup for the first set. Plus Drummer #1 wants to learn guitar. An outstanding drummer can make a good band turn into an amazing band.
 
[sarcasm] Everyone who plays anything but a single BD beat on 1 and 3, a single snare drum beat on 2 and 4 and quarter notes on the hi-hat is overplaying. Anything more is just showing off. You should really feel the groove. [/sarcasm]

PS - Stewart Copeland is my hero!
 
An outstanding drummer can make a good band turn into an amazing band.[/QUOTE said:
I totally agree, my favourite bands all have amazing drummers. Plus I also play guitar and playing in front of a good drummer gives you a lot more confidence and helps you relax.

Summary:- A great drummer will help the other musicians in a band play better.
 
This has the makings of groove vs chops saga part 929693220....

Isn't overplaying subjective...I've heard people say Vinnie overplayed with Herbie and this was on a "Vinnie is God" forum....Herbi looked like he was having the time of his life hearing the chopfest on drums....

Same thing said of Weckl but thats what I want pay to see, someone push the envelope in a musical situation....If I want pocket then I'll check out Jordan of Ferrone but thats not what I want to see.....

Now overplaying and just bad playing are two different things...If the fills were rushed and the timing was all over the place then thats just a bad drummer thinking hes all that trying to show off...

Yet we keep taking part on these things...we're all gluttons...miserable gluttons. :)

I think whether or not "chops" are called for...or a simple back-beat is appropriate, is entirely subjective to the time, place, and people involved in the music. I believe it's important for us to instinctively interpret what the music needs...sometimes it's one or the other...both...or somewhere in-between.

DMC has it right...sometimes you bring the fire or sometimes you just keep a little flame goin'. Either way - it's all relative to the band, the music, and the mojo that's going on while the music is being played.

I think it's silly to paint oneself into a corner and say, "I just play a backbeat because ALL music only requires timekeeping and the GROOVE, man." Likewise...someone who wanks their way through every song, paying no mind to the energy in the room and the other musicians taking part is equally as asinine.

Instinct and creative choices.
 
Hi everyone - this is my first post after months of just reading and taking in all the great input - I only hope I can offer something useful.
Drummers who 'overplay' really get me. I just wonder if they're listening.
I've been playing over 20 years now.

I know some younger players may not get what I'm about to try to say here, but here it is. I did a gig with a blues band - no rehearsal, never played with the bass player before. This could have been a disaster, however it worked (and people were dancing all night) due to me and the bassist keeping it simple. I see it as a challange to play simply and effectively. We were playing shuffles and swing grooves - these are feels I really saw as a challenge years ago. However, after listening to lots of early rock and roll and Frank Sinatra, I've begun to really accept that it is a true test of your musicianship to be true to those rhythms and say to yourself 'I'm going to make people dance just by playing the ride cymbal' . I also sing along to the songs or hum the basslines as I go (i'm a bassist too). Because the blues is honest and simpler music, you play that way - you want it to CONNECT with people.
I feel you will not work with a good band for long or will work with bands that aren't as good (that is, they will accept less) if you don't care about what you play. A lot of this is unspoken among musicans - you may never hear that people aren't happy - you will wonder why the phone doesn't ring for work though.
I have some limited chops, but I know when they're not required !
I hope I added something here.
Keep playing , keep listening , keep working..........
 
There is no square rule or standard to play, more or average or less. It is up to you, at the right time, right place to fit in with what is required...Time-keeping, lightning fast triplets, fills, four-way coordination, grooves, and so on.
 
Nah.

Less is ALWAYS less.

Doesn't mean it's better or worse. But it IS always less than more.

It is what it is. ;-)

Thank You!!!

The "Less Is More" statement has always bothered me. It's such a all inclusive statement that it feels like someone is choking the life outta me. If a songwriter says, "use the less is more approach on this song" then that would be good communication, but when its used as a blanket statement it really gets under my skin.
Play for the MUSIC. Find a cool groove or start a fire, just make it work.

Mike
 
Hi everyone - this is my first post after months of just reading and taking in all the great input - I only hope I can offer something useful.
Drummers who 'overplay' really get me. I just wonder if they're listening.
I've been playing over 20 years now.

I know some younger players may not get what I'm about to try to say here, but here it is. I did a gig with a blues band - no rehearsal, never played with the bass player before. This could have been a disaster, however it worked (and people were dancing all night) due to me and the bassist keeping it simple. I see it as a challange to play simply and effectively. We were playing shuffles and swing grooves - these are feels I really saw as a challenge years ago. However, after listening to lots of early rock and roll and Frank Sinatra, I've begun to really accept that it is a true test of your musicianship to be true to those rhythms and say to yourself 'I'm going to make people dance just by playing the ride cymbal' . I also sing along to the songs or hum the basslines as I go (i'm a bassist too). Because the blues is honest and simpler music, you play that way - you want it to CONNECT with people.
I feel you will not work with a good band for long or will work with bands that aren't as good (that is, they will accept less) if you don't care about what you play. A lot of this is unspoken among musicans - you may never hear that people aren't happy - you will wonder why the phone doesn't ring for work though.
I have some limited chops, but I know when they're not required !
I hope I added something here.
Keep playing , keep listening , keep working..........

Very, very well said!
This is true if you are playing covers in the main and its what many of us do mostly- have to listen to a lot of songs and learn them--when I say learn I mean- have a feel for the natural breaks in the music, watch for example a build up in chord progression that leads to a break...its very important to take note of these to the point where it comes without thought..after I have that done- its the dynamics I look at next--I listen for the times I should play not as loud to aid expression.
With all these things in mind its often not the done thing to play more than whats required- but you can always make your mark with the accents, ghost notes etc. In the main I believe a drummer gets more work if he serves the song and has an understanding at some level of instruments in general that may be at the gig.
I play the guitar and most likely thats not unique here- I am no way good enough to play out, but am aware when for example a series of chords is a build up to the end of the song, a break, a verse, a chorus or a lead into another song as sometimes happens.

I hope this gives some help to some drummers out there wondering how to make it work better for them.

Good luck guys and gals!
 
There is this story about a semi pro saxophonist who used to come up to Michael Brecker with numerous critiques of his playing, with the sum of it usually being that Michael needed to play less, and not be so musically aggressive. Somehow this guy got on a student jam session at some college where Brecker was the guest act. Apparently Brecker took in the critic saxophonist's playing with a dead pan expression, then commenced to playing one of the wildest solos anyone had ever heard him play.

Still after all that, this guy still comes to Brecker and asks him with a cocky tone:

Hey Michael, why do you want to play so many notes?

Brecker responds: Because I can.
 
There is this story about a semi pro saxophonist who used to come up to Michael Brecker with numerous critiques of his playing, with the sum of it usually being that Michael needed to play less, and not be so musically aggressive. Somehow this guy got on a student jam session at some college where Brecker was the guest act. Apparently Brecker took in the critic saxophonist's playing with a dead pan expression, then commenced to playing one of the wildest solos anyone had ever heard him play.

Still after all that, this guy still comes to Brecker and asks him with a cocky tone:

Hey Michael, why do you want to play so many notes?

Brecker responds: Because I can.

Ha! Awesome. I wonder if that ever happened to Elvin Jones or Tony Williams.
 
Nah.

Less is ALWAYS less.

Doesn't mean it's better or worse. But it IS always less than more.

It is what it is. ;-)

same opinion here. Less is always less, folks who see the less drumming think, he or she doesnt know anything other than playing simple beats, even though the drummer keeps on thinking "Less is more!".

What would have happened if Neal Peart thinks "Less is more??

again, time keeping, playing steady grooves is good but.. to me it is boring after sometime. The drummer should find some chops that blends with the music every now and then. Thats what creativity is, to me.
 
I think it is a huge misconception that when a drummer feels he/she is playing a "boring" beat, that it sounds boring. I've felt that very thing, "Oh this beat is so simple, it's boring" On playback though, I was so surprised to enjoy how much "in the groove" it sounded. From now on if I think I'm being "boring" I know better not to change it up, because the groove falters. Sometimes keeping time just feels soooo good (out front in the audience, where it matters)
 
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