Moeller - which grip?

Re: Moeller

Use American grip.

Here's a freebie lesson on Moeller 3's (from Bill Bachman's upcoming new project):
http://www.drumworkout.com/workouts/moeller-3s/

German grip would work, too but try for yourself and you'll see that American would be the overall grip to go with Moeller. With French grip the butt of the stick might interfere with your forearms - also, just try for yourself, this doesn't really work.
 
Learn ALL grips with Moeller...

Definitely start with German to get the feel for the whip motion. Because of the way the wrist moves, German is the easiest - especially with more exaggerated motions. Then move over to American, and French - you'll have lots of possibilities on the kit when you get the motion down with a variety of grips.
 
Does anyone know whether the Moeller technique is done with the German, French, or American grip?

Make sure you learnthe free stroke first, otherwise you are cheating yourself.

Also, I highly, highly recommend a great teacher for this material, it will be worth every penny you spend.

That being said, start with German position. what you should concentrate on is getting the wrist flush with your forearm as this will stretch you in places you are not used to.

Here is a short video explaining this http://youtu.be/JTAKkvlO0Ls

American is not a position you really need to practice, as your hands will find their own way there.

French is a little ambiguous regarding Moeller. Jim Chapin said he had developed a "Moeller like" motion in French, near the end of his life, but mostly the Moeller is associated with German and American.

Hope this helps, now go get a Skype lesson with Dom. He learned the Moeller directly from Chapin who learned it directly from Mr. Moeller himself.

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask any other questions you may have.

Casper
 
Folkloric version, you want to do it in German position. For modifications anything.

While I completely support your overall "no limit" message, it seems to me that a beginner at the Moeller will best learn it by learning the German position first.

I am not sure how you learned it, and please share, but I think it it is wise to remember that German position is a heavily used position in all styles of playing, not least in Rock. To refer to it as "folkloric" risks undermining its importance.

I once again suggest learning the free stroke first. It will make the Moeller much much more effective. And yes, start in German.

Casper
 
While I completely support your overall "no limit" message, it seems to me that a beginner at the Moeller will best learn it by learning the German position first.

I am not sure how you learned it, and please share, but I think it it is wise to remember that German position is a heavily used position in all styles of playing, not least in Rock. To refer to it as "folkloric" risks undermining its importance.

I once again suggest learning the free stroke first. It will make the Moeller much much more effective. And yes, start in German.

Casper

I prescribe to the folkloric version ( Traditional, German ) "Moeller", and I have done ALL the work to get everything out of it. Iv'e been studying "Moeller" technique for over 30 years, as well as Stone (Freestroke) for as long. I am also a Chuck Brown ex-student. and have studied a lot of Spivacks approach. I also like "Moeller" modifications as well. They serve the Drum Set well.....
The point i was making above is to start with "Folkloric Moeller"...
.....foundation is very important for good and great technique.
 
I prescribe to the folkloric version ( Traditional, German ) "Moeller", and I have done ALL the work to get everything out of it. Iv'e been studying "Moeller" technique for over 30 years, as well as Stone (Freestroke) for as long. I am also a Chuck Brown ex-student. and have studied a lot of Spivacks approach. I also like "Moeller" modifications as well. They serve the Drum Set well.....
The point i was making above is to start with "Folkloric Moeller"...
.....foundation is very important for good and great technique.

Perfect, thanks for sharing this. Interesting. I misunderstood your "folkloric" as sarcastic, as it is not a word people often use.

Cheers, and kudos for doing all that work although I know you loved every minute of it so it is not really work at all...

Casper
 
Perfect, thanks for sharing this. Interesting. I misunderstood your "folkloric" as sarcastic, as it is not a word people often use.

Cheers, and kudos for doing all that work although I know you loved every minute of it so it is not really work at all...

Casper

I'm never sarcastic about "Moeller" it is the principle way I play. I"m also of the thinking that the Middle or Tap strokes in "Moeller" are what Stone, Morello...etc are teaching that we now call a "Freestroke". Good Freestroke technique is built into "Moeller".
 
I'm never sarcastic about "Moeller" it is the principle way I play. I"m also of the thinking that the Middle or Tap strokes in "Moeller" are what Stone, Morello...etc are teaching that we now call a "Freestroke". Good Freestroke technique is built into "Moeller".

Hmmm, not really. Moeller tap strokes are NOT Stone Free strokes. You are not accepting the rebound all the way.

Besides, all of this focus on the "motion" is wrong-headed. The key is to learn how to play the basic rudiments at a high level. Spending all of this time on Moeller at the outset while possibly ignoring the fact that you must start with a smooth sounding single and double stroke roll is simply backwards.

The pattern you wish to play will determine the motion needed. Tommy Igoe's methodology of learning to utilize rebound right from the outset will get you playing better faster than playing Moeller triplets for hours on end.

May be controversial but its true.

FYI, I actually studied with Chapin, Famularo, Morello and Igoe. All of them.

Also, I would avoid Moeler in French grip, the wrist really doesn't have a good range of motion in that direction.
 
FYI, I actually studied with Chapin, Famularo, Morello and Igoe. All of them.

Also, I would avoid Moeler in French grip, the wrist really doesn't have a good range of motion in that direction.

Here's Dom Famularo himself demonstrating the Moller technique in the French position: http://youtu.be/45NSac-a5ss?t=1m37s . The motion isn't a pivot of the wrist hinge but rather a rotation of the forearm. Notice how his hand turns almost upside down.

Of course, I haven't taken lessons from Dom, so I don't know how big of an emphasis he puts on working on the Moeller technique in this position.
 
Dom got me playing Moeller in all three grips... French works great for playing time on a ride cymbal... That's the great thing about matched grip - many options - don't limit yourself to just one or two ways of holding the sticks...
 
Hmmm, not really. Moeller tap strokes are NOT Stone Free strokes. You are not accepting the rebound all the way.

Besides, all of this focus on the "motion" is wrong-headed. The key is to learn how to play the basic rudiments at a high level. Spending all of this time on Moeller at the outset while possibly ignoring the fact that you must start with a smooth sounding single and double stroke roll is simply backwards.

The pattern you wish to play will determine the motion needed. Tommy Igoe's methodology of learning to utilize rebound right from the outset will get you playing better faster than playing Moeller triplets for hours on end.

May be controversial but its true.

FYI, I actually studied with Chapin, Famularo, Morello and Igoe. All of them.

Also, I would avoid Moeler in French grip, the wrist really doesn't have a good range of motion in that direction.

Are you addressing me with this post or are these just general observations?
If you are, why would you say I'm not accepting the bounce or rebound? What do you base this assumption on?. Of course I accept the rebound. I also control it for different stick heights.
As to my "Freestroke Theory". When Jim shows the three strokes of "Moeller" separated, into individual strokes. The 2nd or "Tap" is played with his forearm rotation starting and ending at the Fullstroke position (90 degrees). That is a Freestroke. You turn your arm, bounce the stick, meet it at the top or beginning point. It does not rebound or react from the Downstroke until sped up and linked to the other strokes ( Down and up. ) then the Downstroke fuels the Tapstroke. (All in his Video). Just because he doesn't call it a "Freestroke" doesn't mean it's not the same.
I am glad to know that you had the opportunity to study with whom you have. However you don't know me or what my history is. Your opinion is valued by myself and others. If you were not addressing only me then excuse the verbiage. Have a mighty fine day Jeff. ....T Moran........(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp9ThiQ_Y3c......years ago.modifications in action)
 
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Are you addressing me with this post or are these just general observations?
If you are, why would you say I'm not accepting the bounce or rebound? What do you base this assumption on?. Of course I accept the rebound. I also control it for different stick heights.
As to my "Freestroke Theory". When Jim shows the three strokes of "Moeller" separated, into individual strokes. The 2nd or "Tap" is played with his forearm rotation starting and ending at the Fullstroke position (90 degrees). That is a Freestroke. You turn your arm, bounce the stick, meet it at the top or beginning point. It does not rebound or react from the Downstroke until sped up and linked to the other strokes ( Down and up. ) then the Downstroke fuels the Tapstroke. (All in his Video). Just because he doesn't call it a "Freestroke" doesn't mean it's not the same.
I am glad to know that you had the opportunity to study with whom you have. However you don't know me or what my history is. Your opinion is valued by myself and others. If you were not addressing only me then excuse the verbiage. Have a mighty fine day Jeff. ....T Moran........(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp9ThiQ_Y3c......years ago.modifications in action)

When I said "you" I did not mean you personally. I mean "one".
Absolutely nothing personal.

Maybe I'm just jaded but I've had far too many people over the years ask me about Moeller who couldn't even play a smooth roll.

I mean, to me asking "Which grip for Moeller?" is strange. I could understand maybe "which grip should I use for accented paradiddles phrased between the snare and hi hat?" or "which grip is best for loud double strokes?"

The goal is not to have the best Moeller stroke or best free stroke motion but rather to have the best sounding roll or paradiddle or whatever.

I have heard many teachers advocate "focusing on the motion" as this will lead to the sound. The fact is that modern training techniques in biomechanics have found this to be backwards. Experiments have shown that athletes achieve faster results when focusing on the end result (such as the bat hitting the ball) as opposed to focusing on perfect execution of a technique.

The body (or self 2 if you've read the inner game of tennis) will orient itself in the most efficient manner if you focus on the end result and allow the nervous system to adapt and learn the most efficient means of getting there. Focusing on the motion first is slower and leads to thinking being inserted into a process which is itself faster than thought. (Ugh, I can see it now, Down, Tap, Up )

You want to teach a child Moeller? Just show him a whipping motion and ask him to try to imitate it. I bet his first attempt will be better than if you showed him, down tap up

I'm sorry if I hijacked this thread with my radical ideas and I truly mean no offense to any and all involved. The truth is it's all Tommy Igoe's fault. His methodology reflects the more modern approach that I espouse.

Sorry Tommy.
 
When I said "you" I did not mean you personally. I mean "one".
Absolutely nothing personal.

Maybe I'm just jaded but I've had far too many people over the years ask me about Moeller who couldn't even play a smooth roll.

I mean, to me asking "Which grip for Moeller?" is strange. I could understand maybe "which grip should I use for accented paradiddles phrased between the snare and hi hat?" or "which grip is best for loud double strokes?"

The goal is not to have the best Moeller stroke or best free stroke motion but rather to have the best sounding roll or paradiddle or whatever.

I have heard many teachers advocate "focusing on the motion" as this will lead to the sound. The fact is that modern training techniques in biomechanics have found this to be backwards. Experiments have shown that athletes achieve faster results when focusing on the end result (such as the bat hitting the ball) as opposed to focusing on perfect execution of a technique.

The body (or self 2 if you've read the inner game of tennis) will orient itself in the most efficient manner if you focus on the end result and allow the nervous system to adapt and learn the most efficient means of getting there. Focusing on the motion first is slower and leads to thinking being inserted into a process which is itself faster than thought. (Ugh, I can see it now, Down, Tap, Up )

You want to teach a child Moeller? Just show him a whipping motion and ask him to try to imitate it. I bet his first attempt will be better than if you showed him, down tap up

I'm sorry if I hijacked this thread with my radical ideas and I truly mean no offense to any and all involved. The truth is it's all Tommy Igoe's fault. His methodology reflects the more modern approach that I espouse.

Sorry Tommy.

Tommy claims to be a NO Method guy. He said it to my face.

I don't think in the ways you are describing. When I play music I am NOT thinking about my technique. I'm thinking about the music, listening and reacting. That is what I stress with my students. As well as encouraging them to play, and learn to play with other people. Not sitting in a practice room.

I also don't just use Moeller. I use what is necessary at the time. The correct tool for the job through reflex, has always been my approach and goal. Buddy Rich, Bruce Lee. Jeet Kun Do.
 
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